Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[trofirhen]

Again and again: the real traffic congestion happens at intersections that are controlled by lights. The only way to mitigate this in the long run is to build underpasses for through traffic.
If such underpasses are build, in particular to bypass the Georgia - Pacific Blvd intersection, and other intersections as well, the Viaduct removal may work out.
If not, expect gridlock.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by theKB

There are several areas that prove that this makes way more congestion.

Cambie between 16th and the bridge comes to a grinding halt.

Cambie turning left onto marine (EB) where the light right after the intersection now has literally no synch with the major light at marine and cambie.

Dunsmuir viaduct as the lights start and cars get bunched up starting at citadel parade.

It goes on and on and is especially bad when they are not synched in any way shape or form.

The viaduct teardown will be a complete disaster. Vision keeps choking off points at which you can enter and leave the city. One would have thought that the chief proponent of the viaduct teardown (geoff meggs) leaving council would have slowed down the process just a little bit.

You could also argue that the Cambie Bridge or the viaducts create more congestion. Their capacities are out of sync with the rest of the city streets so you end up with too much volume flowing off them, hence all the back ups at the lights. Traffic lights along Pacific will more effectively meter traffic onto the streets further ahead, resulting in less congestion.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

What's funny is local streets and non-highways in Langley are often very busy, particularly on the weekends. Some of the worst traffic I've been stuck in has been Langley and Maple Ridge on a Saturday afternoon.

Especially along 200th between the bypass and 64th. Horrible horrible traffic around there often.

I find Coquitlam bad too but I think that is actually largely to do with their really terrible light timings to the point you hit red light after red light after red light constantly.

Traffic lights are terrible for traffic and if you time them correctly they can be less terrible. There are a lot of lights on Nelson for example coming out of Downtown and onto the Cambie Bridge, but they are really really well timed to the point you often hit a green wave and just sail through 8 intersections green after green so despite there being plenty of lights it flows like a viaduct.

Contrast to Bridge Port near the Costco (Richmond) and there is effectively 2 traffic lights and their really terrible timings often gets traffic into a point of no return jam where nobody can move anywhere because lines of cars blocking intersections results in no movement. That's just 2 terribly timed traffic lights.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Again and again: the real traffic congestion happens at intersections that are controlled by lights. The only way to mitigate this in the long run is to build underpasses for through traffic.
If such underpasses are build, in particular to bypass the Georgia - Pacific Blvd intersection, and other intersections as well, the Viaduct removal may work out.
If not, expect gridlock.

Or:

1. Time lights better
2. Deal with the whole pedestrian crossing vs left/right turn problem
3. Force buildings to build ENOUGH parking spots then prohibit street parking on main roads to prevent weaving

I think those 3 issues would solve a lot of traffic woes not just in Vancouver but in most cities. #1 and #2 to me are the big ones.

Build underpasses/overpasses for pedestrians and you'd change traffic congestion in an instant especially downtown where everyone walks on a no-walk and people don't walk in a clump but literally stagger 1 by 1 across the cross walk for the full duration of a light which results in:

1. Only 1 car being able to legally turn left on a green light
2. 2-4 cars after that car turning on a red out of frustration
3. Those 2-4 cars stopping the other direction with a green now and/or misjudging and blocking the intersection
4. The same problem happening for the other direction but now with car chaos
5. Right turners also stuck waiting for people
6. Rinse repeat

That's why traffic backs up at 152nd and Fraser Highway eastbound in Surrey most afternoons. Pedestrians holding up right turners effectively turning Fraser Highway into a 1 lane road and once the left turn lane backs up into the through lane, a 0 lane road and that's why trying to drive along Georgia Street eastbound at any point in the afternoon is an exercise on getting nowhere in about an hour.

So either solve all the above or get companies to start letting workers work from home so we don't actually have to commute from Surrey > Vancouver or Richmond > Coquitlam or North Vancouver > Kamloops.

[Pinion]

I've been driving down Expo a lot lately and I can't imagine how shitty it would be if everyone on the viaducts was also on that street. Even at 6:30am with minimal traffic it takes just as long to get from Main to Smithe than it does from lower Lonsdale to Ironworkers bridge thanks to all the intersections and lights that seem determined to not let you go more than one block without stopping.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Pinion

I've been driving down Expo a lot lately and I can't imagine how shitty it would be if everyone on the viaducts was also on that street. Even at 6:30am with minimal traffic it takes just as long to get from Main to Smithe than it does from lower Lonsdale to Ironworkers bridge thanks to all the intersections and lights that seem determined to not let you go more than one block without stopping.

Express lanes and underpasses, express lanes and underpasses, express lanes and underpasses ........think Hyde Park Underpass .... express lanes and underpasses ........
(trying to make it into a mantra that people can get into their minds; excuse me, please)
*And for traffic-light-controlled intersections, Mr. Hausner has some pretty slick ideas as well.
(I smell a traffic disaster in the making. Then how will Geoff Meggs and Gregor beat their chests and explain it to the unthinking public when the disastrous results manifest? hmm?)

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Especially along 200th between the bypass and 64th. Horrible horrible traffic around there often.

Traffic lights are terrible for traffic and if you time them correctly they can be less terrible. There are a lot of lights on Nelson for example coming out of Downtown and onto the Cambie Bridge, but they are really really well timed to the point you often hit a green wave and just sail through 8 intersections green after green so despite there being plenty of lights it flows like a viaduct.

Contrast to Bridge Port near the Costco (Richmond) and there is effectively 2 traffic lights and their really terrible timings often gets traffic into a point of no return jam where nobody can move anywhere because lines of cars blocking intersections results in no movement. That's just 2 terribly timed traffic lights.

I have the same experience. I am no traffic engineer, but it seems like lights are timed to get people out of the downtown core a lot more smoothly than into the core. Maybe they can't do both.

With respect to Expo Blvd, the two issues it has today are the new Casino area (only going to get worse), and the mess that is Expo/Quebec/Columbia. Those lights are horribly timed and I'm often waiting there at a red light for extended periods of time with no cross traffic happening. Hopefully that can be cleaned up with the viaduct removal.

[s211]

Originally Posted by theKB

The viaduct teardown will be a complete disaster. Vision keeps choking off points at which you can enter and leave the city. One would have thought that the chief proponent of the viaduct teardown (geoff meggs) leaving council would have slowed down the process just a little bit.

Quite the opposite. Meggs didn't go up the food chain just for sh*ts and giggles. Rest assured, Vision is spreading now its agenda beyond Vancouver proper, and the Massey Bridge cancellation (yes, cancellation), is just one such example of Vision's expanded reach.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by waves

Did you consider there might be other reasons the cycle lengths are the way they are? ie. coordination with other intersections? There are many factors that go into cycle length determination and quipping that they should just make the cycle lengths the same, is shortsighted and not useful to the discussion.

The intersections of Yukon & Marine and Cambie & Marine are close to each other and have no other nearby lights. It's really a no-brainer in this case to give them the same cycle times. Having a city engineer use differing cycle lengths as an excuse just seems idiotic to me.

His comment about the difficulty of accommodating both eastbound and westbound traffic at the same time holds far more water, IMHO.

[goldenboi]

It seems like none of you have ever heard of induced traffic. It will not be gridlock. It will not be a catastrophe. People make rational transportation decisions. Those who don't NEED to drive into downtown will start to take other forms of transportation. Unnecessary trips will be cut out. Traffic will likely stay the same, if not get better, while we will have a better public realm. I still think it would be better to save the viaducts to create a unique space beneath, similar to what is being done under Vancouver House.

[Pinion]

Seems like you don't live in the real world. It still takes me 20 minutes to drive to my downtown workplace by car (due to starting super early) and an hour by seabus. Gonna have to put spikes down on the road before I stop driving. Public transit is awful unless you're a physically tiny person who doesn't care about having free time/hygiene/carrying work tools.

BTW there is already gridlock/catastrophe for most of the day, caused by your ideological nonsense. Clearly you don't drive. edit: oh you don't even live here

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by theKB

There are several areas that prove that this makes way more congestion.

Cambie between 16th and the bridge comes to a grinding halt.

Cambie turning left onto marine (EB) where the light right after the intersection now has literally no synch with the major light at marine and cambie.

Dunsmuir viaduct as the lights start and cars get bunched up starting at citadel parade.

It goes on and on and is especially bad when they are not synched in any way shape or form.

The viaduct teardown will be a complete disaster. Vision keeps choking off points at which you can enter and leave the city. One would have thought that the chief proponent of the viaduct teardown (geoff meggs) leaving council would have slowed down the process just a little bit.

Yep Cambie and Marine is a complete shitshow thanks to the lack of foresight and planning on the city's part. Looking at it, it's hard to believe they paid "professionals" in the planning and traffic departments. A total mess.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by goldenboi

It seems like none of you have ever heard of induced traffic. It will not be gridlock. It will not be a catastrophe. People make rational transportation decisions. Those who don't NEED to drive into downtown will start to take other forms of transportation. Unnecessary trips will be cut out. Traffic will likely stay the same, if not get better, while we will have a better public realm. I still think it would be better to save the viaducts to create a unique space beneath, similar to what is being done under Vancouver House.

Again, induced demand only applies to construction; since the cat's out of the bag, deconstruction requires the building of more roadspace and/or rapid transit in order for those rational decisions to be made. So since the plan calls for Georgia and Pacific to handle all the the viaducts' traffic, and there's nowhere to detour (Cambie/Pender/Hastings/etc being equally clogged), and no downtown streetcar or Hastings SkyTrain to compensate, drivers will indeed sit there and cause gridlock.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by goldenboi

It seems like none of you have ever heard of induced traffic. It will not be gridlock. It will not be a catastrophe. People make rational transportation decisions. Those who don't NEED to drive into downtown will start to take other forms of transportation. Unnecessary trips will be cut out. Traffic will likely stay the same, if not get better, while we will have a better public realm. I still think it would be better to save the viaducts to create a unique space beneath, similar to what is being done under Vancouver House.

Don't even bother. Any suggestion that you might reduce the use of the almighty car in this thread will be met with hostility and derision. The entire economy of British Columbia will be brought to an absolute standstill if you believe the hyperbole in this thread. Can't affect motordom at all unless you put an eight lane freeway straight down Georgia.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

The entire economy of British Columbia will be brought to an absolute standstill if you believe the hyperbole in this thread. Can't affect motordom at all unless you put an eight lane freeway straight down Georgia.

Hope you understand the irony of these two sentences.

Both sides of the discussion are well represented btw. If anything there are more anti-car people here. You just don't have a valid argument when it comes to the viaducts, it's all ideological and/or developer bribery.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by goldenboi

It seems like none of you have ever heard of induced traffic. It will not be gridlock. It will not be a catastrophe. People make rational transportation decisions. Those who don't NEED to drive into downtown will start to take other forms of transportation. Unnecessary trips will be cut out. Traffic will likely stay the same, if not get better, while we will have a better public realm. I still think it would be better to save the viaducts to create a unique space beneath, similar to what is being done under Vancouver House.

Where have you been this past decade? The area is already a gridlock when there are events, with the exception of traffic getting out of downtown via the Georgia viaduct. Without a better replacement, we are just anticipating it to be worse once the viaducts come down. Mind you that the viaducts do not just serve drivers going in and out of downtown, but also people commuting through downtown to and from the north shore, Horseshoe Bay, Whistler, etc. Even if less people avoid coming downtown, which is itself already a bad thing, there would still be many vehicles trying to get through downtown.

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Don't even bother. Any suggestion that you might reduce the use of the almighty car in this thread will be met with hostility and derision. The entire economy of British Columbia will be brought to an absolute standstill if you believe the hyperbole in this thread. Can't affect motordom at all unless you put an eight lane freeway straight down Georgia.

Pinion is so right. Note the highlighted word, and then the phrase.

[goldenboi]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Again, induced demand only applies to construction; since the cat's out of the bag, deconstruction requires the building of more roadspace and/or rapid transit in order for those rational decisions to be made. So since the plan calls for Georgia and Pacific to handle all the the viaducts' traffic, and there's nowhere to detour (Cambie/Pender/Hastings/etc being equally clogged), and no downtown streetcar or Hastings SkyTrain to compensate, drivers will indeed sit there and cause gridlock.

Would you mind elaborating on this? Why would induced demand apply to the construction of new roadways but not work in the opposite direction? Are you suggesting that people cannot decide to take other forms of transportation? Because the statistics in Vancouver and other cities across the world would seem to say otherwise. The amount of people driving in this city has been steadily decreasing over the past few years.

Seems like you don't live in the real world. It still takes me 20 minutes to drive to my downtown workplace by car (due to starting super early) and an hour by seabus. Gonna have to put spikes down on the road before I stop driving. Public transit is awful unless you're a physically tiny person who doesn't care about having free time/hygiene/carrying work tools.

Sure, you may never stop driving your car, but that just makes you stubborn. It doesn't say anything about the rest of the population, who are able to make marginal changes in their daily habits.

[goldenboi]

Reality check: every major city in the world has automobile traffic issues. It is a fact of life in a big city. There are many people and finite space. Those cities that give room for other modes of transportation (vancouver) are winning the mobility game. I do agree that they need to supplement the tearing down of the viaducts with new routes, but these should not be roadways. Single-occupancy cars are a downright inefficient and classist use of space. You are right, the Hastings line is urgent, even more so with the viaducts coming down.

[Pinion]

Actual reality check: Vancouver has the traffic problems of cities that are three times its size, and the problems are almost entirely due to infrastructure neglect caused by failed social engineering. Cities of 2.5 million (i.e. NOT a big city) shouldn't have the issues we have.

Originally Posted by goldenboi

Sure, you may never stop driving your car, but that just makes you stubborn. It doesn't say anything about the rest of the population, who are able to make marginal changes in their daily habits.

I went car-free for five years and it was hell on earth with unbearably long commutes, despite living near the seabus and working downtown. So it's more about you being an idealogue in Winnipeg and not knowing what you're talking about while I have first hand experience on a daily basis over the last few decades.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Pinion

Actual reality check: Vancouver has the traffic problems of cities that are three times its size, and the problems are almost entirely due to infrastructure neglect caused by failed social engineering. Cities of 2.5 million (i.e. NOT a big city) shouldn't have the issues we have.



I went car-free for five years and it was hell on earth with unbearably long commutes, despite living near the seabus and working downtown. So it's more about you being an idealogue in Winnipeg and not knowing what you're talking about while I have first hand experience on a daily basis over the last few decades.

To be fair, Seattle has worse traffic than we do. It's partially a geography problem.