133 Park St and 36, 38 and 40 Allen St W | 13 m | 3.5 fl | Proposed

[waterloowarrior]

Z-09-06 133 Park ST and 36, 38 and 40 Allen St W
File: Zone Change Z 09-06

Applicant: Rom Dam Developments

Location: 133 Park St and 36, 38 and 40 Allen St W

Request: The applicant is proposing to amend the City's Zoning By-law No 1108 by rezoning the subject lands from Industrial-6 (I-6) to Commercial Two-6 (C2-6) with site specifice provisions including:

that “dwelling (terrace)“ be added as a permitted use
that the setback from Allen St (front lot line) be reduced from 5.0 m to 3.3 m for the main building, 1.9 m to the stairs and 1.7m to the architectual entrance feature
that the setback from Park St (flankage lot line) be reduced from 5.0 m to 3.4 m for the main building and 1.6 m to the architectural entrance feature.
that the setback from the north-westerly lot line (abutting 129 Park St) be reduced from 7.5 m (as required for rear yards) to 3.0 m for the main building and 2.6 m for the architectural entrance feature.
that the landscape buffer within the low rise residential area yard setback (westerly lot line) be reduced from an average depth of 3.0 m and at no point less than 1.5 m to an average depth of 1.7 m and at no point less that 1.5 m
Purpose: The applicant is being advaced to permit the lands to be developed for a 3.5 storey residential building with 18 units

Informal Public Meeting: July 13, 2009

Formal Public Meeting: (pending)

Staff Report (pending)

Contact: Trevor Hawkins, Development Planner 519-747-8583

Attachments: concept site plan and concept building elevations

[mpd618]

The design looks... interesting, perhaps. Though demolishing 40 Allen St W just to put up parking is unfortunate.

[Bauer_buyer]

Thanks for the link. I live very close by and I like it.
The stone colour is important and I hope it contrasts with the "white stone trim"....not too sure if it does.
The driveway is off Allen St....not too sure I like that as that location is too close to the corner and from what I see there will be a landscaped area buffering this road from the neighboring complex and its rockery stone. Good idea as long as it's wide enough;trees here would be nice

Would be nice if some tall substantial stone markers on either side would enhance that entrance. Is that wire fence that I see...any other alternative like
steel fencing to give it a "cabbagetown" effect.

The company has designed a good structure giving nearby chippendale residents a good degree of distance from the back of the new building.

The "devil is in the details" of course..

[DHLawrence]

More Park and Allan news!

Townhouse development slated for Park and Allen
Greg MacDonald, Chronicle Staff
Published on Jul 29, 2009

As construction begins on a 19- storey condo tower at the corner of Park and Allen streets, the intersection is getting a new addition.

A 3.5-storey, 18-unit townhouse development is slated for the northwest corner of Park and Allen.

The site is currently a vacant industrial lot.

The design of the building is new to Waterloo.

It will be a “stacked townhouse,” essentially a hybrid of apartments and townhouses.

The style, which is also known as terrace dwelling, is essentially rows of townhouses stacked on top of each other.

This development will feature three rows of townhouses, including basement, main floor and upper floor.

“This will complement the development of 144 Park,” said Scott Patterson a consultant with Labreche-Patterson and Associates, at a public meeting earlier this month.

“The terrace dwelling will provide a suitable transition from existing townhouses to the south and higher density to the north.”

The development is still seeking approval from the city.

City councillors expressed a few concerns during the public meeting, including handicapped access and a sidewalk’s proximity to the road.

There were also some questions about how this development would fit with the 144 Park tower and the nearby Bauer Lofts — paticularly in terms of the number of cars it will bring to the surrounding neighbourhood.

“One area of concern I have is traffic,” said Coun. Ian McLean.

In the spring, nearby residents came out to oppose 144 Park because of the traffic impact the increased density was perceived to have had on side streets.

The development will go to another public meeting before a decision is made.

[bauer123]

Hope this gets built. The area surrounding Park and Allen is going be quite the spot soon.

144 Park isn't even close to starting. Probably a year from now until they break ground.

[Bauer_buyer]

Yes it would be nice to have something replace those shoddy structures on Allen St and most recently that tin shed on Park st. which was put to a number of uses including a "sweat shop" for one of our local business retailers.

Chippendale owners (neighboring townhouses) deserve to be congratulated for their patience and hopefully soon this developer will clear the property and build anew...something smart and sassy to complement Chippendale, 144 Park, the Catalina complex and of course the venerable Bauer Lofts complex.

What I see is nice, not sassy but nice will do I guess considering.
I would have preferred elegant "NEW YORK" style brownstones maybe ten or 15 with underground parking...one level only for 20 or 25 cars.
The quality appears to be good...cannot tell for certain yet.
It fronts Parks St. and gives certain degree of privacy to Chippendale owners...a good thing...only 3.5 stories( they could have gone up to six stories).
Three bedroom units are not marketable unless it's student housing...is the city aware of this? Walkups tend to lose value over time.
If they are condos then why three bedrooms since all the units in the surrounding area are two bedroom condo units;they are very vague about the nature of these units which raises suspicions.We do not want student housing.

Yes as councilman Maclean suggested "traffic" is a problem.
Exit and Entry from Allen St...not good
My suggestion would be to allow "entry" only from Allen St and "exit" only onto Park thereby reducing congestion and pressure on Allen.
Perhaps 18 units might be reduced to 16 to accomodate the "exit" of vehicles.

In the end I am confident this developer will work with the neighbors to create a beautiful addition to this very important part of the city which will probably develop into the most fashionable area in all of kw.

[taylortbb]

I think the kind of students that would move in to a place so far from the university are those that want to get away from student life. I wouldn't be too concerned about students moving in.

And I think this looks like a good development. I wouldn't mind it being higher density, but at the same time not every building has to be at the highest densities permitted.

[plam]

Originally Posted by Bauer_buyer

Three bedroom units are not marketable unless it's student housing...is the city aware of this? Walkups tend to lose value over time.
If they are condos then why three bedrooms since all the units in the surrounding area are two bedroom condo units;they are very vague about the nature of these units which raises suspicions.We do not want student housing.

I can see that historically 3BR units might have been unpopular, but I wonder if that might be changing these days. I live in a 2BR unit, and it would be too small if I wanted a family. I'm sure that some people these days don't want to live in a house but still want a family. One of my friends moving to Waterloo is precisely in that situation, actually.

I live within walking distance to uptown.

[jcollins]

Originally Posted by Bauer_buyer

Yes it would be nice to have something replace those shoddy structures on Allen St and most recently that tin shed on Park st. which was put to a number of uses including a "sweat shop" for one of our local business retailers.

Chippendale owners (neighboring townhouses) deserve to be congratulated for their patience and hopefully soon this developer will clear the property and build anew...something smart and sassy to complement Chippendale, 144 Park, the Catalina complex and of course the venerable Bauer Lofts complex.

What I see is nice, not sassy but nice will do I guess considering.
I would have preferred elegant "NEW YORK" style brownstones maybe ten or 15 with underground parking...one level only for 20 or 25 cars.
The quality appears to be good...cannot tell for certain yet.
It fronts Parks St. and gives certain degree of privacy to Chippendale owners...a good thing...only 3.5 stories( they could have gone up to six stories).
Three bedroom units are not marketable unless it's student housing...is the city aware of this? Walkups tend to lose value over time.
If they are condos then why three bedrooms since all the units in the surrounding area are two bedroom condo units;they are very vague about the nature of these units which raises suspicions.We do not want student housing.

Yes as councilman Maclean suggested "traffic" is a problem.
Exit and Entry from Allen St...not good
My suggestion would be to allow "entry" only from Allen St and "exit" only onto Park thereby reducing congestion and pressure on Allen.
Perhaps 18 units might be reduced to 16 to accomodate the "exit" of vehicles.

In the end I am confident this developer will work with the neighbors to create a beautiful addition to this very important part of the city which will probably develop into the most fashionable area in all of kw.

Why do you think 3 bedroom units are unmarketable?

[Elmira Guy]

/\ Agreed. I would like a 3 bedroom unit in that style. I think it's a great idea.

If we want to see greater densification (sp?), then we have to look at ways to accommodate families et al.
I'm not a first-time homeowner, and I have no interest in ever living in a house.

[KW4Life]

City councillors expressed a few concerns during the public meeting, including handicapped access and a sidewalk’s proximity to the road.

It's nice to handicap access an issue but this isn't the type of place that should be the target. Places like the Bauer Lofts and 144 Park make no accommodation and the scale of those projects is many times larger.

[Bauer_buyer]

Originally Posted by Elmira Guy

/\ Agreed. I would like a 3 bedroom unit in that style. I think it's a great idea.

If we want to see greater densification (sp?), then we have to look at ways to accommodate families et al.
I'm not a first-time homeowner, and I have no interest in ever living in a house.

What families are going to move into a dwelling that is not family friendly...like where are the playgrounds the open spaces that are necessary for children to play in.Can you imagine letting your child playing out on Park St. Not!!

The area is adult oriented.That's a fact; the suburbs are just the opposite. Sometimes the two just don't mix.
Families have their place... at least we were told that by those who live on Norman St. Theirs is is a protected enclave that does not want the big bad tower at 144 Park to go up. "One has to protect the children from traffic."

So the 133 Park is not for family.This is an adult complex; plain and simple,
which leads us back to three bedrooms units. Students! Not!

Three bedroom units are marketable all right... to students because they split it three ways.
There is no elevator; this attracts the younger set plain and simple.
Look at the walkups along Columbia St. What an unsightly mess!!

[kwoldtimer]

I don't know that I would describe stacked townhouses as "walkups", although I suppose it's technically true. In Ottawa, where I used to own one, they are quite common and I am aware of no problems with their value (in fact some of them are very nice developments). With one flight up to a two storey unit, you are facing no more stairs than in a three storey townhouse. The only thing I didn't like about mine was the lack of a proper entrance foyer.

[WatDot]

[jcollins]

Originally Posted by Bauer_buyer

What families are going to move into a dwelling that is not family friendly...like where are the playgrounds the open spaces that are necessary for children to play in.Can you imagine letting your child playing out on Park St. Not!!

The area is adult oriented.That's a fact; the suburbs are just the opposite. Sometimes the two just don't mix.
Families have their place... at least we were told that by those who live on Norman St. Theirs is is a protected enclave that does not want the big bad tower at 144 Park to go up. "One has to protect the children from traffic."

So the 133 Park is not for family.This is an adult complex; plain and simple,
which leads us back to three bedrooms units. Students! Not!

Three bedroom units are marketable all right... to students because they split it three ways.
There is no elevator; this attracts the younger set plain and simple.
Look at the walkups along Columbia St. What an unsightly mess!!

I don't know, I for one think you're wrong and that there would be families that would love something like that. PLUS, why is it that only families are going to buy 3 bedroom units? I for one would love one, I know the majority of my friends (who don't have kids) have 3 bedroom homes. Just my two cents.

[Elmira Guy]

I don't have kids, and I would love a 3 bedroom unit like this.

And I stand by my point that if you want to make core areas (and the fringe of the cores) more dense, you have to appeal to more demographics than just single urban professionals and couples starting out with their first home.

Having more dense development is going to require a lifestyle change for the entire community. Homes with vast yards are going to have to go.

If you've ever been to Europe, you may have noticed that very few homes have any kind of yard. However, there are more parks and community green spaces. That is the way we are going to have to go if we want to bring sprawl under control.

And to echo another post, I know people with children who not only want to live in condo-type units, but some who do. They're kids go to the park. Works pretty well for them.

[rapid_business]

I have to agree with the general concencus here. 3 bedrooms units are unmarketable in condo towers to an extent. They were over done in the 70s with large floor plans, and don't sell well today at the sq. ft. price needed to move units in nice, new buildings. (And that depends on location, etc. In Toronto, you can make a couple work in each buidling, but that is about it...) But these are townhouses esentially. If they can sell townhouses like this to families in downtown Edmonton, Vancouver, Calgary, etc., there is no reason why they can't market it here.

I know I for one will be looking for a brownstone in Edmonton or the equivilant in the future when we are planning for a little one.

[Bauer_buyer]

Sorry...but I will have to disagree.
Are there any units in KW of high end quality that are 3brm?
I doubt there is a legitimate market for it.
If so I stand corrected.

I repeat...they should be high end walkups condos...in keeping with the area.

[jcollins]

Originally Posted by Bauer_buyer

Sorry...but I will have to disagree.
Are there any units in KW of high end quality that are 3brm?
I doubt there is a legitimate market for it.
If so I stand corrected.

I repeat...they should be high end walkups condos...in keeping with the area.

No, there aren't. Which is exactly why there IS a market for it. There isn't any high end options for people who want it. All of the other 3 bedroom stuff is student stuff up on columbia. This has the opportunity to create some high end 3 bdr units.

[Bauer_buyer]

Has there been study to determine if a "market" for this type of dwelling unit exists?
To simply say there is a market is not good enough; show me the stats that would suggest as much.