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Originally Posted by brettinhalifax
I didn't twist your words. You're just inconsistent. You said...
You're saying that you want Halifax to follow Moncton's example, but everything about your proposal is different than Moncton's stadium.
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Maybe you are one of Halifax's leaders and I have offended you. Mainly, I want Halifax to build a stadium - if the majority of people in Halifax want a stadium like Moncton's stadium then I hope it will be built. Are you planning to organize a group to promote a stadium in Halifax - if you are then how do you plan to do it? Probably at least half the people that you meet will disagree with your idea of a stadium so how will you deal with that? Even if you are a well-know leader in Halifax, it will be the same result if you can't compromise.
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- A sunken bowl vs. above ground.
- In a residential neighbourhood vs. a university.
- Redevelop land vs. building in a greenfield location.
- A 2 tier stadium vs. a basic 1 tier stadium stadium
- A roofed stadium vs. an open air stadium.
- A $70,000,000 budget vs. a $20,000,000 budget
- A 25,000 seat stadium vs. a 10,000 seat stadium.
- Expandable to 50,000 vs. expandable to 25,000.
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I have previously stated why I personally think the above points are beneficial - I can re-state it (will you state why you think the opposite is necessary?)
1) sunken bowl - the majority of new stadiums are at least partially sunken since it simplifies the stadium design (and your posted image of the InfoCision Stadium in Akron, Ohio was one that I liked). A sunken bowl might only be sunken by 10 - 20 feet. You seem to be assuming that any site chosen in the Halifax area will be flat. Being a sunken bowl stadium doesn't mean that the lower bowl must be built on top of the ground as it is at SMU Huskies Stadium - it could be build just as it would be on flat ground with the lower stands built with steel or concrete columns - just the top of the lower bowl will be level with the ground. (there could be storage space and/or usable space under the lower bowl of seats). Having the concourse above the lower bowl at ground level makes use of the ground as a ramp and simplifies the exit ramps.
However, stating whether a stadium is sunken, partially sunken or built above ground is pointless until a site is selected. If the site is not flat, then a sunken or partially sunken design will probably be cheaper than building with the stadium entrances at field level. If you have to level a site that is at an incline then how is it cheaper to build it the way that you suggest? It might actually result in more excavation instead of less if the chosen site is not level.
2) I actually would like to see a stadium built at one of the universities such as SMU but they don't seem to have plans for a large stadium that can host the CFL (I spoke to two people who indicated that they
weren't considering it and one said that concerts would not be allowed at the SMU site - one first-hand source and one second-hand source). I like Gorsebrook across from SMU - but do you think that will happen? Are there any sites close to a university that has a CIAU football program (only SMU)? I went through the list of possible sites near universities and there were always good stated reasons why each would not be acceptable. The closest were the Halifax Forum area and The West Mall. The Halifax Forum area is industrial/commercial with residential in the area - there are very few purely industrial areas in the HRM - and how many people will want to attend an event in those areas?
3) I like a 2 tier stadium because it provides room for wheelchair seating, luxury boxes and more concourse space under the stands. I would actually prefer a 3 tier stadium but it might be too costly. This would be a more intimate design than a single tier stadium. With a single tier stadium bowl where would the wheelchair accessible areas be and room for luxury seating - if you put it at the top of the stadium then this is an added expense?
4) I prefer a stadium with a roof over the stands. Many people want protection from the rain and sun - as people grow older this will become more important. Many fans will stay away from events on hot or rainy days if a roof isn't built over the seats - even 10% will likely cost a CFL team to lose money. Probably a portion of the middle-aged and elderly fans with the most money to spend on tickets and merchandise will be the ones who will stay away. Many, including myself, can't tolerate getting a sunburn or sick from the cold rain. If you look at all the CFL stadiums, only Calgary, Edmonton and Hamilton have stadiums with no roof at all. Montreal has two stadiums - one with and one without a roof. If Hamilton builds the new Pan-Am Stadium it will have a partial roof over most of the sideline seats.
5) I think that a stadium with 25,000 permanent seats will likely cost in the vicinity of $70 million. If the Moncton stadium is expanded to meet CFL standards with enough permanent seats, it will likely also cost much more than it currently does (probably at least $50 miilion for 25,000 permanent seats, especially if the city adds a parking lot). A Halifax stadium could be built in phases just as the Moncton Stadium has been - it doesn't have to be built all at once (building it in phases would likely meet the least resistance - so I actually agree with you on this point)
6) I have said several times that it could be built in stages but it should be designed to eventually be expandable to 40,000 for the Grey Cup Game and other events (I think that 30,000 permanent seats and 10,000 temporary seats would do for the Grey Cup).
7) I am just confused by this. You are the one who previously stated that a stadium should be expandable to 50,000 seats (I can post your previous comments). I think that a stadium that is expandable to 40,000 seats with temporary seats would be adequate (eventually, I think 30,000 permanent seats and 10,000 temporary seats just for special events would be ideal) . I think you read another person's post and thought it was mine. I don't remember ever mentioning a 50,000 seat stadium.
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Every one of those criteria for your proposal makes your stadium harder to accomplish and/or more expensive than Moncton's. It is going to be hard enough to get anything built without making it as hard as possible.
To be fair, I guess you reasoned that since Halifax is 3 times the size as Moncton, Halifax should spend 3 times as much. So as far as budget is concerned, your proposal is similar to Moncton's. Of course, NS is only about 25% bigger than NB, so maybe a appropriate budget would be $25 million.
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You have stated previously that a stadium should be built in stages as required. I have stated the same but you seem to have overlooked that. If you have any sense of honesty at all you will go back, read what I have stated in the past and apologize for your inaccurate statement.
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The contradiction is that you want Halifax to follow Moncton's example but you also want Halifax to build a completely different stadium.
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You are right that what I stated sounds like I am stating that Halifax should build a $20 million dollar stadium. What I meant was the Halifax should build an economical stadium that it can afford. If that means starting with a $20 million dollar stadium that can eventually be expanded to 40,000 (with some temporary seating) then I actually agree with you. However, in the statement below, where does it state that I want a stadium that is designed like the Moncton Stadium? I can show where I stated that it should be built in stages so as to attract an international sports event to get federal funding for expansion.
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Moncton area leaders sought an achievable goal and obtained it (a $20 million dollar stadium). I hope that Halifax area leaders will learn from that.
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Some points that you have ignored are that the Moncton stadium as it currently stands can not support a CFL team (hosting a few games is not the same thing) - it has 10,000 permanent seats and 10,000 temporary seats. The CFL has repeatedly stated that a stadium should be build to CFL standards. A few of these requirements would be - at least 25,000 permanent seats, sufficient washrooms, media facilities and player change-rooms. Having luxury boxes would also be desirable. Do you think that this can all be accomplished for $20 million? Another point is that the Moncton Stadium doesn't have parking in the area. If you think Halifax should build a 10,000 permanent seat stadium in Woodside then where do you plan for people to park (the cost of building a parking lot is extra)?
If you really want a stadium then why not organize a group to promote it. If you have any chance of succeeding then you will have to compromise on many issues. Almost all of my ideas on what are important stadium features have come from others including yourself (i.e. building it in phases and the InfoCision stadium basic design). You have stated various different views over the past year - starting with an InfoCision Stadium type design, the Bright House Networks Stadium with metal bleachers, and the BC Lion's temporary facility with aluminum stands. You cannot say that I am inconsistent - if you are open to compromise then your opinions will change over time also (please don't say that all your opinions are all correct - I don't think anyone has done a detailed business plan on various stadium designs and locations, excluding the Commonwealth Games which was for a different purpose).
I think that the only way that Halifax will get a stadium will be through Halifax area business leaders taking on the responsibility. They will have to be willing to find a compromise that most people can accept. If getting a stadium built in the Halifax area were a simple task then it would have been done long ago. I and others could volunteer our time if there is a business group that is willing to listen to others. In order to get a stadium built in Halifax it might mean having a large group of people volunteering almost all of their spare time to the effort.
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