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  #1  
Old Posted May 6, 2010, 6:10 PM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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Arizona Immigration Thread

KEEP IT CIVIL!

I'm creating this thread because we really don't have anyone from other states in here so I feel this is our playground to speak. If the mods don't see it fit then please lock the thread... I'm not trying to run the website, just provide more discussion. If someone starts bashing someone else or namecalling, I'll call for the thread to be closed. Please read my thoughts, and provide your own... lets get some good rational alternatives discussed here or some good support for the current law.

The way I see it, Arizona is and always has been run by retired conservatives, many of whom are borderline racist and intolerant. I just never realized it until now.

First and foremost, I could care less. If you want to run the Mexicans out, I don't care in theory. What I am concerned with is that you (jan brewer) have put our state in too much jeopardy to keep your constituents happy. Yes, we all know you want to win the election, but this is a pretty ballsy way to do it. Cities, organizations, and businesses across the country are now boycotting this state which is already beaten and battered by the economy. Look at any neighborhood and you'll see rows of foreclosed homes, vacancies, and out of work residents. Whether the bill is right or not (again I don't give a shit) it makes us look like retarded hicks to the rest of the country. THAT is what I have an issue with. We shouldn't be dumb enough to put ourselves in a position to be boycotted. Why would anyone do this!? Sure, the boycotts are misguided, because they only punish people who need their jobs, but people are going to do what they do so why put yourself out there for such backlash?

Mexicans spend money at Circle K, which means tax revenue.

Mexicans spend money on rent, which means tax revenue.

Mexicans have paychecks (the legal ones) which are taxed.

I know the owner of the Streets of NY Pizza on Bethany/43 and he has already lost three employees due to out of state moves. All three legal citizens. We lost all that tax revenue because people flat out don't want to be in this racist state. So say we lose a few thousand legal Mexicans, is it really worth it to try to scare out the illegal ones? Seems we have lost more money than we saved.

As far as the argument on crime goes, I'm not familiar with too many illegals who want to draw attention to themselves by committing crimes. Infact, I think they are some of the hardest working and quietest people around. The criminals are the people who are bringing them here, and if you shut down the human smuggling business, they will just have to find another illegal activity to partake in.

I don't think this "bill" solves anything, infact Jan Brewer said herself that the bill will not racially profile, and those who will be questioned for their papers are people who fail to pull over for a traffic stop or people who run from the police. I have news for you, those people are going to be arrested anyway. EJ Montini seems to believe that if you are arrested, your immigration status is checked anyway, so really, other than piss off the country, those who make you money, and those who spend money in your state, what does this thing do?
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  #2  
Old Posted May 6, 2010, 6:16 PM
Tempe_Duck Tempe_Duck is offline
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This is Brewer's Response:


Quote:
Arizona governor: Boycott is misguided
By Gov. Jan Brewer
Special to ESPN.com

In my 28 years of public service, I have made a lot of tough calls. But with a federal government unwilling to secure our border for years and years, Arizona is left with little choice. Imagine a sporting event in which rules have been agreed to for 70 years, but the umpires refuse to enforce those rules. It makes no sense. Although I recognize that Arizona Senate Bill 1070, as amended, is not the entire solution to our illegal immigration problem in Arizona, most people are united in the hope that it will finally inspire the politicians in Washington, D.C., to stop talking and to start action now.

By now, sports fans everywhere have heard something about the passage of Senate Bill 1070, a measure I signed into law. It has resulted in protests outside ballparks hosting our Arizona Diamondbacks and has led to calls on Major League Baseball commissioner Bud Selig to strip the City of Phoenix's opportunity to host baseball's Midsummer Classic in July 2011.

Urging Major League Baseball to take away next year's All-Star Game from Phoenix is the wrong play. In Arizona, both proponents and opponents of Senate Bill 1070 have stated that economic boycotts are an inappropriate and misguided response to an issue that is clearly worthy of proper public debate and discourse. Put simply, history shows that boycotts backfire and harm innocent people. Boycotts are just more politics and manipulation by out-of-state interests. As a border state, Arizona has already paid a heavy price for the federal government's failure -- hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars in unreimbursed costs -- and its citizens should not be punished further.

It is critically important that all Americans understand the impetus for this new law and have a clear understanding of the law itself. Our neighbor to the south, Mexico, is in a massive battle with well-organized drug cartels. Because of Washington's failure to secure our southern border, Arizona has become the superhighway of illegal drug and human smuggling activity. In December 2008, the U.S. Justice Department said that Mexican gangs are the "biggest organized crime threat to the United States." In 2009, Phoenix had 316 kidnapping cases, turning the city into our nation's kidnapping capital. Almost all of the persons kidnapped were illegal immigrants or linked to the drug trade.

Essentially, our border leaks like a team with a last-place defense. The very same week that I signed the new law, a major drug ring was broken up and Mexican cartel operatives suspected of running 40,000 pounds of marijuana through southern Arizona were indicted.

While drug smuggling is the principal cause of our massive border-violence problem, many of the same criminal organizations also smuggle people. Busts of drop houses, where illegal immigrants are often held for ransom or otherwise severely abused, are not uncommon occurrences in Arizona neighborhoods.

Today, Arizona has approximately 6,000 prison inmates who are foreign nationals, representing a cost to our state of roughly $150 million per year. Arizona taxpayers are paying for a vast majority of these incarceration expenses because the federal government refuses to pay what it owes. Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, as governor of Arizona, sent numerous requests to the federal government to pay for these prisoners -- only to be given the same answer she and President Barack Obama are now giving Arizona: They will not pay the bill.

The Immigration Issue

Arizona's new immigration law has become a hot-button topic in the world of sports. Over the past several days, ESPN has presented a number of perspectives on the controversy.

When I signed the legislation, I stated clearly I will not tolerate racial discrimination or racial profiling in Arizona. My administration worked for weeks with legislators to improve SB 1070, to specifically clarify and strengthen its civil rights protections. I issued an executive order to implement proper training and enforcement protocols for our police so that the intent of the language could not be misconstrued. Although it is already against the law, the new law undeniably prohibits law enforcement officers from considering race, color or national origin in implementing the new statute.

I have worked for years without fail to solve problems diligently and practically. I have done so always with an eye toward civility, and always with the greatest respect for the rule of law.

This new law is no different. As committed as I am to protecting our state from crime associated with illegal immigration, I am equally committed to holding law enforcement accountable should this statute ever be misused to violate an individual's rights.

There have been countless distortions, honest omissions, myths and bad information about Arizona's new law -- many, undoubtedly, spread to create fear or mistrust.

So here are the facts:

1. The new Arizona law creates a state penalty to mirror what already is a federal crime. Despite the most vile and hate-filled portrayals of proponents of the law as "Nazis," actions that have been condemned nationally by the Anti-Defamation League, it is ALREADY a federal requirement for legal aliens in the United States to carry their green card or other immigration document. The new Arizona law enforces what has been a federal crime since before World War II. As anyone who has traveled abroad knows, other nations have similar laws.

2. Contrary to many of the horror stories being spread -- President Obama suggested families risk being pulled over while going out for ice cream -- law enforcement cannot randomly ask anyone about their immigration status. Much like enforcement of seat belt laws in many states, under SB 1070 there must first be reasonable suspicion that you are breaking some OTHER non-immigration law before an officer can ask a person about their legal status. Only then, after law enforcement officers have a "reasonable suspicion" that another law has been broken, can they inquire about immigration status -- but ONLY if that individual's behavior provides "reasonable suspicion" that the person is here illegally.

"Reasonable suspicion" is a well-understood concept that has been thoroughly vetted through numerous federal court cases. Many have asked: What is reasonable suspicion? Is it race, skin color or national origin? No! Racial profiling is prohibited in the new law. Examples of reasonable suspicion include: a person running away when approached by law enforcement officers, or a car failing to stop when the police turn on their lights and siren.

3. Arizona's local law enforcement officers, who already reflect the great diversity of culture in our state, are going to be trained to enforce the new immigration law in a constitutional manner. It is shameful and presumptive for opponents to question the good will and the competence of Arizona's law enforcement personnel. The specter that is raised of rogue, racist police harassing people is insulting to those in Arizona who risk their lives in the name of law enforcement every day.

President Theodore Roosevelt said, "No man is above the law and no man is below it; nor do we ask any man's permission when we require him to obey it. Obedience to the law is demanded as a right; not asked as a favor." Arizona has been more than patient waiting for Washington to act. Decades of federal inaction and misguided policy have created a dangerous and unacceptable situation. Arizona has acted to enforce the rule of law equally and without bias toward any person.

It is time for our country to act to resolve our border security problem; an economic boycott in Arizona would only exacerbate it -- and hurt innocent families and businesses merely seeking to survive during these difficult economic times.

A boycott that would actually improve border security would be to boycott illegal drugs. Dramatically less drug use and production would do wonders for the safety of all our communities.

Jan Brewer is the governor of Arizona.
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  #3  
Old Posted May 6, 2010, 8:40 PM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
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Brewer's response is right on point. It should come as no surprise that liberal groups are using fear tactics and calling for boycotts and the libbie media is running with the coverage.
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  #4  
Old Posted May 6, 2010, 8:59 PM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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My response from my Facebook account:

There is no question in any rational person's mind that laws like these lead to more racial profiling, not less. As a white guy who has lived in Arizona for more than 17 years, I've never had to answer any questions about my U.S. citizenship, and I've had plenty of encounters with cops here, since I've had something like 20 traffic tickets in my time here. People of all types see me (including cops) and assume I'm legal. However, when they see a darker skinned or brown-skinned person, they presume that person may be illegal, and they then ask questions related to U.S. citizenship. If that isn't racial profiling, I don't know what is racial profiling, and the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled many times that making traffic stops based on skin color and interrogating people based on skin color about their citizenship is just wrong. In fact, I've never understood how a "free society" would tolerate the imposition of Soviet-style checkpoints on our motorways, yet there they are, enshrined by our highest court due to the "exigency" of the drug trade and border problems.

Because of Sheriff Joe Arpaio's actions and the actions of those who think like him, Maricopa County has become more of a police state in the last decade, especially if you happen to have darker/brown skin. Funny how when Arpaio came into office back in 1994, no one said anything about illegal aliens. Now, as a result, Hispanics are fleeing Phoenix by the tens of thousands, further hurting our already depressed sales-tax driven economy and worsening our real estate market, since there are fewer people renting and buying things like cars, furniture and clothing. I'm sure we can all agree that regardless of your legal status, if you are living and working here, you are buying stuff to survive, and those sales taxes drive a large part of our service-oriented economy; especially since our property taxes are so low.

By preying on the weaker segments of our society, there is also another nasty effect - Hispanics of any legal status (meaning both legal and illegal) will be less likely to cooperate with the police in the future, because of fear. Fear that they will be taken in and subjected to a level of interrogation white people don't have to deal with. This will make it harder for police to investigate crimes and may actually cause the crime rate to increase, especially when a Hispanic person is the victim. Given over one-third of Arizona's legal population is Hispanic, this will have a severe effect on not just illegals, but citizens of all types.

I also soundly reject the notion that we should, as a society, subject ourselves to more law enforcement in the name of anything, whether that be national security, "securing the border" or any other artificially hyped concern. We are moving rapidly to a police state where we will have fewer and fewer rights, and this I find abhorrent, both morally and from a Constitutional perspective. We've already been giving up rights to help fight the war on drugs, and now we want local police questioning people about citizenship? I'm sorry, this sounds too much like the Gestapo of Nazi-era Germany, or more recently, the Soviet Union "you papers are not in ohder, you vill come with ussss..."

Certainly it creates a whole font of new law enforcement powers and responsibilities, which cities and counties can ill afford to absorb. To avoid a real nasty Constitutional challenge on racial profiling, they are going to have to interrogate everybody as to their U.S. citizenship, and this is something I can not and will not tolerate in a free society. Arizona is well on it's way to becoming the police state of the U.S. No one in their right mind can possibly believe that this bill will NOT have a disproportionate effect on anyone who appears brown or in the slightest bit Hispanic. For the sad truth is that it will; it is mere human nature, and considering that most Arizona cops are caucasians and most illegals are darker-skinned from Latin America, it is going to lead to tons of litigation, battles with overworked police, overloaded judiciary, overcrowded jails, etc. Just you watch and see...

I might also add that these bills are largely the product of hysteria and a tyranny of the majority, just like during World War II with Korematsu v. United States. I quote from Justice Murphy's stinging dissent of the original 1944 decision:

"I dissent, therefore, from this legalization of racism. Racial discrimination in any form and in any degree has no justifiable part whatever in our democratic way of life. It is unattractive in any setting, but it is utterly revolting among a free people who have embraced the principles set forth in the Constitution of the United States. All residents of this nation are kin in some way by blood or culture to a foreign land. Yet they are primarily and necessarily a part of the new and distinct civilization of the United States. They must, accordingly, be treated at all times as the heirs of the American experiment, and as entitled to all the rights and freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution."

And I quote from Judge Marilyn Patel's eloquent prose when she, in essence, over-ruled the Supreme Court's wrong 1944 decision and granted a writ of Coram Nobis to Korematsu in San Francisco in 1984:

"As historical precedent it stands as a constant caution that in times of war or declared military necessity our institutions must be vigilant in protecting constitutional guarantees. It stands as a caution that in times of distress the shield of military necessity and national security must not be used to protect governmental actions from close scrutiny and accountability. It stands as a caution that in times of international hostility and antagonisms our institutions, legislative, executive and judicial, must be prepared to exercise their authority to protect all citizens from the petty fears and prejudices that are so easily aroused."

Sadly, Arizona fails to learn the lessons of the past, and falls victim to the same type of hysteria and mass legislative abandon as did Congress during World War II. To some degree, we only have ourselves to blame for this situation. To paraphrase V in V for Vendetta: "I understand why you did it. You were afraid. And how could you not be afraid? Every day, you were shocked with crime, attacks, higher taxes. The headlines bleated it out, over and over." We deserve the result, in any event...

--don
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  #5  
Old Posted May 6, 2010, 9:28 PM
glynnjamin glynnjamin is offline
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When it comes down to it, my biggest problem is that the rules are not laid out fairly for everyone. I have no documentation that I am a natural born citizen other than my SS card which I don't carry with me. If the state were to, say, void all state driver's licenses and require a new state ID that every citizen over the age of say 5 (or whatever age you enter elementary school). The state should take the responsibility to perform whatever background check/proofing that is needed to establish citizenship and dispense ID cards that function as a proof of citizenship and (when applicable) driving certifications and whatever else things you need. That ID should need to be presented to obtain public services (I'm pretty sure we passed this law 4 years ago) and should be requested by any police officer during a stop. This way, the citizenship laws are uniformly executable and uniformly enforced. I think it would go a long way to diminishing the slanted scope of this law.
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Old Posted May 6, 2010, 9:37 PM
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Here's my problem with this law....I understand we need to stop illegal immigration. It is a serious issue, but now that the cops have the power to question the status of illegals, don't you think that the everyday citizen is going to take advantage of the law and suspect every brown skinned latino who speaks spanish as a probable illegal and call the cops to check it out. Do we really want Latinos that are legal getting spooked because joe schmoe called the cops on them to question their status? Look, I look white so I don't have to worry about the cops pulling me over or someone calling the cops cause I speak spanish, but there are people here that are legal but will become subject to a controversy such as I explained.

SB 1070 should not stand for Stop Browns!!
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Old Posted May 6, 2010, 9:54 PM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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Originally Posted by glynnjamin View Post
When it comes down to it, my biggest problem is that the rules are not laid out fairly for everyone. I have no documentation that I am a natural born citizen other than my SS card which I don't carry with me. If the state were to, say, void all state driver's licenses and require a new state ID that every citizen over the age of say 5 (or whatever age you enter elementary school). The state should take the responsibility to perform whatever background check/proofing that is needed to establish citizenship and dispense ID cards that function as a proof of citizenship and (when applicable) driving certifications and whatever else things you need. That ID should need to be presented to obtain public services (I'm pretty sure we passed this law 4 years ago) and should be requested by any police officer during a stop. This way, the citizenship laws are uniformly executable and uniformly enforced. I think it would go a long way to diminishing the slanted scope of this law.
Exactly. I have no way to prove my immigration status. However, since I'm blue eyed, I don't have anything to worry about unless I run from a cop, in which case I am going to be arrested no matter what.

Instead of a state ID though, I thought it would be great if there was a federal ID which you had to have to be employed. Make employers log the ID number of every employee and do quarterly checks at workplaces. If an employer had someone unlogged or inaccurate, whack them with a huge fine. The appeal of moving to Arizona will dwindle very quickly.
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Old Posted May 6, 2010, 9:58 PM
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I normally hate political discussion on this forum and John trust me it’s not going to take long for the neocons to come on here and call those that oppose this bill “bleeding heart liberals”, “naïve”, “pro-illegal immigration”, blah, blah. Most people that are overly staunch in their opposition or support of this bill are the ones who will never change their minds regardless of how much info you give them.

Having said that this SB1070 is simply dumb. It is political pandering at the lowest common denominator. It is a feel good bill that accomplishes nothing other than garners votes for the people that authored it by the people that think they understand it. It is no different than Joe Arpaio annoucing an immigration sweep to the public and the media and then expecting to find real criminals in very area he said he would sweep. The sound bites win him points with some but the real worlds application if laughable at best. Brewer said it best herself; 70% of people polled supported the bill, yet 53% were worried about civil liberties being violated. Which means the majority of the people polled didn’t understand the bill in the first place.

I oppose the bill on principle.

First it is more big brother and more government. We’re not taxed enough with red light cameras and speed cameras and now this? I don’t want police to have the ability to detain anyone simply on the basis that they need to verify legal status. Yes, I know that they need to have a reason to first make contact before they can delve into the legal status issue but that can be so subjective it’s scary. I worked with Phoenix’s GITEM task force in the past and realized one thing; they are all human and no one is infallible. 99 % of officers I met were stand up men who believed in their core principals but I also met officers who quite honestly had not business wearing a uniform. To think that this law won’t be abused is the epitome of naiveté.

Forget about Hispanics, picture this scenario: You’ve had a long work day, you’re tired and simply want to get home, you just got flashed by a speed camera for doing 66 in a 55 zone, you’re almost home and you get pulled over for a tail light that is out. As the officer begins to issue you yet another tax, excuse me “citation” he begins to question your legal status. Now remember you are a white male, who only speaks English so you question the officer’s questioning. Now the officer finds you uncooperative and decides to enforce SB1070. At this point the officer can detain you, fine you, and if he chooses book you into jail until you provide satisfactory documentation proving your legal status. Don’t have your birth certificate handy? Tuff luck because an Arizona drivers license can be deemed inadequate. Remember it is up to the officer’s discretion.

You think that a similar scenario can’t happen, is rare or won’t happen? Then you’re wrong. It has happened numerous times at border check points inside of Arizona, Texas, and California. The difference was that those were Federal agents; this law simply gives the same power to every regular police officer.

So what’s the counter argument? It’s OK to give away even more of our civil liberties to keep us safe from those scary illegals? Really? Does anyone believe this is a real effective method for dealing with illegal immigration?
You want real changes to the issue of illegal immigration then that must occur at the national level. Focus on enforcement of numerous laws that are already in effect, pandering to a political base by passing layered feel good laws accomplishes nothing. In fact this stupid law has simply shifted the focus from the real issue of illegal immigration to whether or not Arizona is run by people unable to leave the 1950’s.

Enforcement; why is it that employers who hire illegal labor have yet to be punished yet the brunt of punishment for breaking the law continue to focus on the laborers themselves? Someone has to be hiring them right? Since when do we punish the drug addicts more than the drug dealer?

Political pressure: The U.S. government must stop looking the other way when it comes to the Mexican government’s inactions on real political reform. This is where the real change will happen. The Mexican economy, depending on who you ask, is the 11th or 10th largest in the world. Let me repeat that, the Mexican economy is in or near the top 10 economies of the WORLD! There is no reason, zero, zilch, none, nada, that it cannot sustain a population that is only one third the size of the U.S. There is almost no middle class it’s either the haves or the have-not’s. It comes down to corruption, greed, and the cast system. There is no reason that a former Mexican President can walk away with nearly a quarter of a billion dollars in a Swiss bank and no one raises and eye brow.

The Mexican government is responsible for the condition of their citizenry, and they do not seem to care. The US is their largest trading partner which affords a lot of political leverage. This is where real change needs to happen. A transparent government in Mexico, would do to the issue of illegal immigration and drug trafficking what no US effort alone could even imagine.
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Old Posted May 6, 2010, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by CANUC View Post
Political pressure: The U.S. government must stop looking the other way when it comes to the Mexican government’s inactions on real political reform. This is where the real change will happen. The Mexican economy, depending on who you ask, is the 11th or 10th largest in the world. Let me repeat that, the Mexican economy is in or near the top 10 economies of the WORLD! There is no reason, zero, zilch, none, nada, that it cannot sustain a population that is only one third the size of the U.S. There is almost no middle class it’s either the haves or the have-not’s. It comes down to corruption, greed, and the cast system. There is no reason that a former Mexican President can walk away with nearly a quarter of a billion dollars in a Swiss bank and no one raises and eye brow.

The Mexican government is responsible for the condition of their citizenry, and they do not seem to care. The US is their largest trading partner which affords a lot of political leverage. This is where real change needs to happen. A transparent government in Mexico, would do to the issue of illegal immigration and drug trafficking what no US effort alone could even imagine.
I think people opposed to the law are creating their own hysteria and crying like none other over something they think might happen. Overreaction much? But the above quote I 100000000000000% agree with. It's the problems with the goverments and countries south of us that need to be fixed. If their own country was set up, as it should/could be, for the average (or even below average) person to succeed or lead a semi-fruitful life, we wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem. When I hear the Mexican president, presiding over a corrupt as hell country, speak out and condemn what we are doing in AZ/the US, I want to puke.

Plus we should legalize marijuana and tax it. That would help stop a lot of the problems we have with cartels and drug violence, not to mention increase our tax base. And I don't smoke, nor have I ever.
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Old Posted May 7, 2010, 12:05 AM
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Come to think of it... this whole arguement and issue perfectly paints a picture of the underlying core problem in this country... democrat and republican partisanship. I think everyone realizes there is a problem with illegal immigration, but look what kind of progress we are making towards a real, true, overall fix of the problem, ZERO. Actually, things are probably just getting worse.
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Old Posted May 7, 2010, 12:16 AM
DowntownDweller DowntownDweller is offline
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Actually, things are probably just getting worse.
Actually, for AZ, things will get better. I feel bad for CA, NM, TX, and whatever other states are getting our criminals. Maybe if enough states follow suit then all the illegals will be confined to illegal loving states like CA, which is already beyond bankrupt largely due to illegals.
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Old Posted May 7, 2010, 12:29 AM
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Actually, for AZ, things will get better.
I meant the political climate and country as a whole is just getting worse.
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Old Posted May 7, 2010, 12:14 AM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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Plus we should legalize marijuana and tax it. That would help stop a lot of the problems we have with cartels and drug violence, not to mention increase our tax base. And I don't smoke, nor have I ever.
damn am I with you on this one. I have not smoked any substance in over a decade, and I never will again, but I would love for my state to reap the financial benefits of legalized marijuana. I mean, look at how much tax revenue cigarettes make.......

You could have stores licensed to sell it and just have them pay a licensing fee that is through the roof. It will never happen though, too many bible thumpers.

And mwadswor, obviously it would have to be a federal law, since it's a federal id. I thought that went without saying, lol.

This whole discussion makes me want to move to Portland.
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Old Posted May 7, 2010, 12:18 AM
DowntownDweller DowntownDweller is offline
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damn am I with you on this one. I have not smoked any substance in over a decade, and I never will again, but I would love for my state to reap the financial benefits of legalized marijuana. I mean, look at how much tax revenue cigarettes make........
Just think about all the shiftless layabouts we'd have everywhere. Nobody would show up for work, there'd be pot heads roaming the roads stoned out of their gourds while driving cars, mowing down pedestrians on their way to get JITB.
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Old Posted May 7, 2010, 12:30 AM
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Just think about all the shiftless layabouts we'd have everywhere. Nobody would show up for work, there'd be pot heads roaming the roads stoned out of their gourds while driving cars, mowing down pedestrians on their way to get JITB.
People are going to smoke anyway, whether or not it's legal. I know many people that smoke pot, some are students, some are very successful business men. I'm guessing you've never lit up, because if so, surely you'd understand that it doesn't automatically transform you into a deadbeat that never gets off the couch. I don't smoke (I have, but it's a very rare occasion), but I'd say 95% of my friends do, and they are all very productive, and believe it or not, none of them have mowed down any pedestrians!

Like I said, people are going to smoke pot. This is just reality, and the government is missing out on millions in potential tax revenue.
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Old Posted May 7, 2010, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by DowntownDweller View Post
Just think about all the shiftless layabouts we'd have everywhere. Nobody would show up for work, there'd be pot heads roaming the roads stoned out of their gourds while driving cars, mowing down pedestrians on their way to get JITB.
Heh heh... But I really don't think legalizing it will change the usage rate all that much.

I do think the "LEGALIZE IT" people trying to petition and get everyone's vote seem like some of the laziest worthless people out there. But if it was legal they can just shut up and stay at home smoke their brain away and I never have to see them again.
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  #17  
Old Posted May 7, 2010, 12:45 AM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DowntownDweller View Post
Just think about all the shiftless layabouts we'd have everywhere. Nobody would show up for work, there'd be pot heads roaming the roads stoned out of their gourds while driving cars, mowing down pedestrians on their way to get JITB.
Wait, seriously? You think making it legal will have any effect other than making money off of it? It's a multi billion dollar business and everyone who wants to smoke it smokes it regardless of it's legality. Hell, if I wanted to I could buy some from a number of different people right now.
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  #18  
Old Posted May 6, 2010, 10:05 PM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
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Example:

If I (a US born citizen) were to get pulled over by a police officer for an infraction and I didn't have an ID, proof of insurance, refused to speak one word to him (language barrier perhaps) could not sputter off a SSN, or any other way to prove who I am, should I not be detained for further questioning to figure out just who I am (whether I'm a fugitive or wanted for crimes elsewhere)??
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  #19  
Old Posted May 6, 2010, 11:27 PM
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mwadswor mwadswor is offline
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I'll start by saying I'm not a fan of this thread. I'm fine with CE discussions in CE and I'll jump into them whole heartedly there, and I started the general elections thread because elections specifically are something we should be discussing and spreading information about, I think. This forum should be reserved for development news about Phoenix, not political BS that's only going to incite agravation among members. It may be a stupid place to draw a line, but it's where I draw it. That said, until Sean closes this thread (please)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicelord John View Post
Instead of a state ID though, I thought it would be great if there was a federal ID which you had to have to be employed. Make employers log the ID number of every employee and do quarterly checks at workplaces. If an employer had someone unlogged or inaccurate, whack them with a huge fine. The appeal of moving to Arizona will dwindle very quickly.
It would absolutely have to be a federal law. This discussion, by the constitution, needs to be had at the federal level. Efforts like this cannot be a patchwork, they have to be coordinated among the whole country. The most obvious example is our next door neighbors. New Mexico does not require proof of legal residency to get a driver's license, and unless there's a massive change, it won't require proof of legal residency any time in the near future. Unless Arizona plans on closing our roads and airports to New Mexico (and other states without state IDs) residents just travelling through, those out of staters will still be able to be harassed for not being able to provide proof of citizenship.

Beyond any constitutional or racial issues, that is the most glaring practical deficiency in this law. There are no papers that you are required to carry or even have at all that prove that you are a citizen in this country. You cannot require that people provide proof of citizenship if you don't give all people equal access to a way to prove their citizenship that they are required to carry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
Example:

If I (a US born citizen) were to get pulled over by a police officer for an infraction and I didn't have an ID, proof of insurance, refused to speak one word to him (language barrier perhaps) could not sputter off a SSN, or any other way to prove who I am, should I not be detained for further questioning to figure out just who I am (whether I'm a fugitive or wanted for crimes elsewhere)??
You committed an infraction to get pulled over in the first place, you don't have a driver's license on you, no proof of insurance, and you're not speaking to the police office, that officer has more than enough cause to detain you right now without any additional laws.

What if I'm a passenger in your car, I'm not carrying any ID (because there's no requirement for me to), and I'm completely cooperative with the police, despite my freind driving the car being a douche. The officer, for whatever reason (because the law doesn't define one) decides that I look illegal. Should I go to jail just for being a passenger in a car and not having ID on me (which I'm not required to be carrying)?
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  #20  
Old Posted May 6, 2010, 11:34 PM
DowntownDweller DowntownDweller is offline
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I fully support this bill. It actually changed nothing (with the quickly passed ammendment to it) other than now instead of being released as an illegal, you serve a few weeks in jail and pay a pittance of a fine. If anything, this law is too lax in penalty
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