Would you say anti-Americanism is dying down?

[Acajack]

........

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Acajack

........

Now, now, don't be shy

[wave46]

Re: Anti-Americanism.

A lot of Canadians have a very inflated opinion of themselves and how different we are from Americans. We're a fairly ignorant lot (not so much here at SSP, but at large) with respect to our history, the history of many places and general worldliness.

I've observed that it is groups of people who are quite similar tend to make the most fuss about how different they are from each other. English Canada is but a shadowy reflection of our friends to the south and I suspect most Canadians deep down know it, despite the fuss to the contrary.

That being said, I don't view that as a bad thing.

One: I think the Americans get a lot right, judging about how successful they've been.
Two: I think we in Canada have taken the best from them in terms of ideas and mixed our own 'special sauce' and created one of the most successful societies in history.
Three: A lot of Canadians idolize European countries without acknowledging the problems Europe faces and I suspect that's due to our focus to the south. Paradise looks great if you don't look too hard.

Long story short: "nosce te ipsum" - know thyself. Once we get to that point, we can focus on being the best version of what we are and not so focused on what we're not. (The media plays into this too, but that's another post).

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Who cares about national narratives. Narratives are a means to control a population to achieve certain objectives by those in power. We are a happy, comfortable and reliable society, which ultimately is what most countries strive to achieve.

Countries grasp for national narratives when they stumble from the path to a happy society, by trying to reestablish past habits in the vain hope it will get them back on that path and relive those past glories.

Canada until very recently was a mediocre country with a very average lifestyle, low self confidence, and below average culture when it came to fun and inspiring activities even though it was resource rich. Most immigrants and even native born people left to greener and warmer pastures given half a chance.

One day, when we lose our quality of life, people will nostalgically try to recreate the habits and outer trappings of our current civilization and create a dogmatic national narrative they will militantly try to recreate, because this right now is our golden age, it was never better than this.

People in early 20th century America were not focused on building walls near Mexico, envirionmentalism, or gun laws, or respect for the flag and the president. They were too busy enjoying the good life, they were living their very own golden age. It's is only now they're in decline that they long for their past, and strive to maintain privileges and cultural habits as unassailable eternal cultural traits. The reality is their golden age was the result not of the culture of its time, but of a host of historical factors (unrelated to culture) that allowed their majority community a temporary bubble of extreme prosperity and dynamism. Trump, as the outer embodiment of those supposed cultural traits, exploited this delusion to gain personal power, masterfully.

I don't think narratives are only something created when shit hits the fan in a country. Your example argues that Americans may have payed less attention to politics during their golden age, which may or may not be true, but the original narrative was there all along.

I just think it's more fulfilling to live in a country that has a national identity, purpose, narrative, whatever you want to call it. Think of the bonds you form on your sports teams (or drama club or whatever group activity you've ever been involved in). It's just nice having something bigger to work for, and feeling like you're a part of something. Without it, it's just everyone working for themselves, which leads to stupid things like BC-Alberta pipeline fights and Quebec separatism. This can be a successful arrangement, but I don't find it to be a particularly inspiring one. It's like being in a relationship for financial reasons rather than for love.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So you were born in the UK, spent part of your younger years there before coming to Canada, and you have trouble related to the kids, grandkids and great-grandkids of people who mostly came from the UK themselves in the latter part of the 1800s and in the 20th century?

That seems to be an extreme level of granularity in terms of the type of people that you can relate to.

The demeanour of Brits and Canadians are very different. Britain had an empire and it still manifests itself in how Brits see the world and how they conduct themselves. I was much like that and then me moved to Canada.

Canada was a former colony but had developed into a strong independent nation. Those colonial days were long gone. I expected Canadians to have the same mindset as Brits but that's not what I saw. A lot of the national character still reflects that past and is re-enforced by living next to a super power. Canadians may not like to see themselves this way, but they behave timidly and in a subservient manner. Uncomfortable in the spot light, not wanting to take the lead, participating but not dominating in the corporate world, etc.

I've never been able to switch from the mindset I had as a young boy. A lot of Canadians view being runner up to the US as the natural order of things. I know why they do it but I can't bring myself to do share that mindset. It's not in my make up to view my country as subordinate to any other. Australians are like this. They don't care who they're up against. They view themselves as an equal to the US despite being a minnow compared to them. In competition they fully expect to be #1 and take on all comers. I'm like that too so find it hard to relate to a lot of Canadians because most Canadians aren't like that.

Perhaps I should relay one experience that's stuck with me all these years. I talked to stranger from Toronto after watching a basketball game featuring Canada. We got to talking about the rise of the sport in this country and the great talent coming up. When I suggested beating the USA at the World Championships or Olympics one day he made the biggest eye roll I'd ever seen. He flat out ridiculed me and said it's never never ever going to happen. I pressed on and said that Americans have 2 legs and 2 arms just like everybody else and there's no reason why we couldn't one day beat them. He wouldn't even entertain the idea.

I know this is just one guy but to me it embodied everything about that national demeanour I'd encountered with Canadians since I arrived here. I know why they do it but I can't relate to that mindset at all.

[kwoldtimer]

Coincidentally, there's an op-ed in today's Mop&Pail that's an interesting take on the Canadian "narrative" (for those not blocked by the paywall).

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...odation-story/

[wave46]

Originally Posted by isaidso

The demeanour of Brits and Canadians are very different. Britain had an empire and it still manifests itself in how Brits see the world and how they conduct themselves. I was much like that and then me moved to Canada.

Canada was a former colony but had developed into a strong independent nation. Those colonial days were long gone. I expected Canadians to have the same mindset as Brits but that's not what I saw. A lot of the national character still reflects that past and is re-enforced by living next to a super power. Canadians may not like to see themselves this way, but they behave timidly and in a subservient manner. Uncomfortable in the spot light, not wanting to take the lead, participating but not dominating in the corporate world, etc.

I've never been able to switch from the mindset I had as a young boy. A lot of Canadians view being runner up to the US as the natural order of things. I know why they do it but I can't bring myself to do share that mindset. It's not in my make up to view my country as subordinate to any other. Australians are like this. They don't care who they're up against. They view themselves as an equal to the US despite being a minnow compared to them. In competition they fully expect to be #1 and take on all comers. I'm like that too so find it hard to relate to a lot of Canadians because most Canadians aren't like that.

I know this is just one guy but to me it embodied everything about that national demeanour I'd encountered with Canadians since I arrived here.

I'm curious how New Zealanders demeanor is with respect to Australians - it would seem to be the most analogous example I can think of with respect to Canada v. the US.

The Aussies have done their own thing by way of being isolated for so long that it would naturally lead them to do their own thing. Do the Kiwis feel second-rate relative to the Aussies?

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by wave46

I'm curious how New Zealanders demeanor is with respect to Australians - it would seem to be the most analogous example I can think of with respect to Canada v. the US.

The Aussies have done their own thing by way of being isolated for so long that it would naturally lead them to do their own thing. Do the Kiwis feel second-rate relative to the Aussies?

Yes. That relationship is completely analagous to Canada and the US and I have been told as much by Kiwis and Aussies that I travelled with through Europe. People always compare Canada and Australia but in my experience I had more in common with the Kiwis and generally found the Aussies loud and brash like Americans.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by wave46

I'm curious how New Zealanders demeanor is with respect to Australians - it would seem to be the most analogous example I can think of with respect to Canada v. the US.

The Aussies have done their own thing by way of being isolated for so long that it would naturally lead them to do their own thing. Do the Kiwis feel second-rate relative to the Aussies?

Funnily enough, New Zealand feels like a richer, kinder and more beautiful country than Australia. Australia is an easy country to fall in love with, NZ is a country one is guaranteed to fall in love with.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by wave46

Caught somewhere between the American and British narratives with a Quebecois twist.

Not quite 'Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness', and not quite 'For King and country'.

We've definitely drifted towards the former in the past few decades. The latter seems more foreign as time drifts by. We're not wild-eyed Diefenbaker clamoring for the Red Ensign - he'd be regarded as a lunatic today.

I guess I might call it: Peace, liberty and order. Paix, liberté et ordre.

We definitely take a strong leaning towards letting people do their own thing. We're not ruckus makers or wild-eyed rebels. We're not passionate people. There's incrementalism in our ways - not revolution.

It's not a narrative to get misty-eyed about or inspire patriotism. However, it has seemed to serve us well in a pragmatic sense.

I do find defining oneself or country as it pertains to 2 other countries rather deflating and sad. Instead of describing what we are, we describe how we're a product of 2 other places. Lots of Canadians do this and I find it endlessly irritating.

Taking a slow steady approach has served Canadians well but I do wonder how long it will take before the country becomes more assertive, clear as to who it is, and takes ownership of it as theirs.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by wave46

I'm curious how New Zealanders demeanor is with respect to Australians - it would seem to be the most analogous example I can think of with respect to Canada v. the US.

The Aussies have done their own thing by way of being isolated for so long that it would naturally lead them to do their own thing. Do the Kiwis feel second-rate relative to the Aussies?

It's fitting that you brought it up. I find New Zealanders and Canadians very similar. Both extremely pleasant, modest, timid, and pragmatic. It's hard not to conclude that it's due to feeling a rung down from Australia. Australia is the undisputed #1 in that region of the world and goes a long way in explaining their demeanour (similar to that of Brits and Americans).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by isaidso

The demeanour of Brits and Canadians are very different. Britain had an empire and it still manifests itself in how Brits see the world and how they conduct themselves. I was much like that and then me moved to Canada.

Canada was a former colony but had developed into a strong independent nation. Those colonial days were long gone. I expected Canadians to have the same mindset as Brits but that's not what I saw. A lot of the national character still reflects that past and is re-enforced by living next to a super power. Canadians may not like to see themselves this way, but they behave timidly and in a subservient manner. Uncomfortable in the spot light, not wanting to take the lead, participating but not dominating in the corporate world, etc.

I've never been able to switch from the mindset I had as a young boy. A lot of Canadians view being runner up to the US as the natural order of things. I know why they do it but I can't bring myself to do share that mindset. It's not in my make up to view my country as subordinate to any other. Australians are like this. They don't care who they're up against. They view themselves as an equal to the US despite being a minnow compared to them. In competition they fully expect to be #1 and take on all comers. I'm like that too so find it hard to relate to a lot of Canadians because most Canadians aren't like that.

Perhaps I should relay one experience that's stuck with me all these years. I talked to stranger from Toronto after watching a basketball game featuring Canada. We got to talking about the rise of the sport in this country and the great talent coming up. When I suggested beating the USA at the World Championships or Olympics one day he made the biggest eye roll I'd ever seen. He flat out ridiculed me and said it's never never ever going to happen. I pressed on and said that Americans have 2 legs and 2 arms just like everybody else and there's no reason why we couldn't one day beat them. He wouldn't even entertain the idea.

I know this is just one guy but to me it embodied everything about that national demeanour I'd encountered with Canadians since I arrived here. I know why they do it but I can't relate to that mindset at all.

I can see all of that. But it doesn't seem to me that it's a barrier to establishing linkages with people.

I mean, I don't go around asking the people in my entourage what their vision of the country and its destiny is. Sometimes it comes up, sometimes it doesn't. And with some people it's also pretty obvious. But for many of them I have no idea. Even among some of my close friends. And trust me, it's not because I am not interested in the topic. But it's just not a common topic of conversation.

Again, this level of drilling down seems to be a bit finicky to me...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I don't think narratives are only something created when shit hits the fan in a country. Your example argues that Americans may have payed less attention to politics during their golden age, which may or may not be true, but the original narrative was there all along.

I just think it's more fulfilling to live in a country that has a national identity, purpose, narrative, whatever you want to call it. Think of the bonds you form on your sports teams (or drama club or whatever group activity you've ever been involved in). It's just nice having something bigger to work for, and feeling like you're a part of something. Without it, it's just everyone working for themselves, which leads to stupid things like BC-Alberta pipeline fights and Quebec separatism. This can be a successful arrangement, but I don't find it to be a particularly inspiring one. It's like being in a relationship for financial reasons rather than for love.

And I am pretty sure the people who came up with "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" though it was working out quite well for themselves at the time.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Yes. That relationship is completely analagous to Canada and the US and I have been told as much by Kiwis and Aussies that I travelled with through Europe. People always compare Canada and Australia but in my experience I had more in common with the Kiwis and generally found the Aussies loud and brash like Americans.

Even though Canada has 10 million more people than Australia and New Zealand has about as many people as Greater Montreal.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Even though Canada has 10 million more people than Australia and New Zealand has about as many people as Greater Montreal.

Yes even then.

[Delusio Cogno]

Canada is just America's Taiwan. We so want to be independent yet share the same culture language and economy.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I do find defining oneself or country as it pertains to 2 other countries rather deflating and sad. Instead of describing what we are, we describe how we're a product of 2 other places. Lots of Canadians do this and I find it endlessly irritating.

Taking a slow steady approach has served Canadians well but I do wonder how long it will take before the country becomes more assertive, clear as to who it is, and takes ownership of it as theirs.

If it actually goes anywhere, "the first post-national state" is as strong a narrative as any.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And I am pretty sure the people who came up with "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" though it was working out quite well for themselves at the time.

Just because the narrative ended up leading them to the chaos they're in now doesn't mean that all narratives must end that way. They made many mistakes outside of it as well.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Delusio Cogno

Canada is just America's Taiwan. We so want to be independent yet share the same culture language and economy.

Even Americans don't "share the same culture language and economy"

Is Ireland the UK's Macau?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I do find defining oneself or country as it pertains to 2 other countries rather deflating and sad. Instead of describing what we are, we describe how we're a product of 2 other places. Lots of Canadians do this and I find it endlessly irritating.

Canada has defined itself as the great compromise. The middle power. That's our definition.

To expect us to have the depth of definition of a former world empire, or the world's preeminent superpower, or to nations that have existed in some form for hundreds (or thousands) of years is a high bar. Let us mature - the idea of Canada is only just slightly more than 150 years old and the last part of us was added a mere 70 years ago.

There are plenty of nations with a very clear idea of what they are, but are not great places to live. In the choice between a passionate, dysfunctional country and a less passionate, but pleasant place, I feel we've made the right choice.