General STO News and Rapibus System

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You forget that no transit infrastructure gets built without provincial and federal dollars. Ottawa doesn't even pay for half of its LRT construction. So yes, if the feds and Queen's Park want a connection to Gatineau, it will happen. The alternative is not money to another part of Ottawa. The alternative is that money going to another city in Ontario.

.

That's actually a good point. Ontario is going to fund a rail transit line that is partly on Quebec soil (and is likely to be the City of Ottawa's transit priority number 5 or 6 at best) when projects in other parts of the province will go unfunded?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's actually a good point. Ontario is going to fund a rail transit line that is partly on Quebec soil (and is likely to be the City of Ottawa's transit priority number 5 or 6 at best) when projects in other parts of the province will go unfunded?

I wonder how anything ever gets built in any of the dozen or more major metro areas in the U.S. which straddle state lines?

Maybe, simply by virtue of having so many, they resort somewhat less to BS petty parochialism.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I wonder how anything ever gets built in any of the dozen or more major metro areas in the U.S. which straddle state lines?

Maybe, simply by virtue of having so many, they resort somewhat less to BS petty parochialism.

About two thirds of the Washington Metro cost was paid by the federal government.

The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey has access to tolls, can issue bonds, etc.

Cash gets results (sometimes).

[OTSkyline]

To me the best solution is to fix the POW bridge and have the Trillium line extended from Bayview to cross the river and then follow the existing track and turn right to terminate at Terraces de la Chaudiere.

If OC Transpo and STO are not working together (or don't seem to be able to) then the one and only mandate for OC Transpo should be to take care of Ottawa riders, not Gatineau residents.

By having the Trillium line extended to Terraces, all of the thousands of Ottawa residents who work there (or in any of the Government buildings in 500m or so surrounding that future station) would be well taken care of because let's face it Terrace is basically the only major destination for Ottawa residents travelling to Gatineau. Ottawa residents will need to transfer one way or another going forward anyways, from the Confederation line to Hull on a bus around at Lebreton.

Who cares if it doesn't serve Gatineau residents well? That's not OC Transpo's job. Ottawa residents heading to work in Hull would be well served. Going from either 1 train-bus transfer (at Lebreton) to 1 train-train transfer (at Bayview). Or those living anywhere near the Trillium line would benefit from having no transfers at all.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

To me the best solution is to fix the POW bridge and have the Trillium line extended from Bayview to cross the river and then follow the existing track and turn right to terminate at Terraces de la Chaudiere.

If OC Transpo and STO are not working together (or don't seem to be able to) then the one and only mandate for OC Transpo should be to take care of Ottawa riders, not Gatineau residents.

By having the Trillium line extended to Terraces, all of the thousands of Ottawa residents who work there (or in any of the Government buildings in 500m or so surrounding that future station) would be well taken care of because let's face it Terrace is basically the only major destination for Ottawa residents travelling to Gatineau. Ottawa residents will need to transfer one way or another going forward anyways, from the Confederation line to Hull on a bus around at Lebreton.

Who cares if it doesn't serve Gatineau residents well? That's not OC Transpo's job. Ottawa residents heading to work in Hull would be well served. Going from either 1 train-bus transfer (at Lebreton) to 1 train-train transfer (at Bayview). Or those living anywhere near the Trillium line would benefit from having no transfers at all.

I suppose this could work under that scenario but is this really a bigger urgency than the myriad of other rapid transit priorities that Ottawa has to serve Kanata, Sttitsville, Orleans, Barrhaven, Riverside South with either BRT or LRT? Not to mention NE Ottawa across the Rideau River (Vanier, Overbrook, New Edinburgh, Wateridge, etc.) or even central Ottawa roughly down the Bank St. corridor?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Thank you. And yet, people here think it's completely reasonable to expect a multi-billion dollar subway to be built in a city of just over 1 million mere years after the first one. Maybe in some European paradise where they spend $30 billion per year on transit.....

Or Toronto.

Line 1: 1954
Line 2: 1966 (opened 12 years later)

Considering it takes about a decade to plan, fund and build a new line, it isn't unreasonable to start discussing it now.

But you might say Toronto is much bigger, right? Well their CMA population in 1951 (3 years before their first line opened) was 1,262,000. Ottawa's CMA population in 1916 was 1,323,783 and if you want to exclude Quebec, the Ontario portion of the CMA is 991,726, so even then we aren't that far off.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Or Toronto.

Line 1: 1954
Line 2: 1966 (opened 12 years later)

Considering it takes about a decade to plan, fund and build a new line, it isn't unreasonable to start discussing it now.

But you might say Toronto is much bigger, right? Well their CMA population in 1951 (3 years before their first line opened) was 1,262,000. Ottawa's CMA population in 1916 was 1,323,783 and if you want to exclude Quebec, the Ontario portion of the CMA is 991,726, so even then we aren't that far off.

Line 1 was paid for out of the TTC farebox (OC Transpo cannot cover its operating expenses, let alone capital).

Line 2 was mostly cut and cover through backyards (try doing that in the 21st century)

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I suppose this could work under that scenario but is this really a bigger urgency than the myriad of other rapid transit priorities that Ottawa has to serve Kanata, Sttitsville, Orleans, Barrhaven, Riverside South with either BRT or LRT? Not to mention NE Ottawa across the Rideau River (Vanier, Overbrook, New Edinburgh, Wateridge, etc.) or even central Ottawa roughly down the Bank St. corridor?

I think it comes down to cost. The CTA has tied the city's hands and if they need to spend money on the bridge anyway, they might as well spend a bit extra and actually use it, especially if they can get Federal funding to do so. The other option is to abandon it and risk having MOOSE take it over, potentially making it unavailable for LRT or BRT in the future.

Who owns the stub of track to Terrasses?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Who owns the stub of track to Terrasses?

Goode questione.

I can't find any info.

Gatineau/STO bought all of the Québec-Gatineau lines that run along the Rapibus, but I am not sure if this spur was part of Québec-Gatineau's lines or if it was someone else's. It may have been owned by Domtar as well.

[J.OT13]

Doesn't provide an answer, but it narrows it down... maybe.


https://twitter.com/NCC_CCN/status/822113084521189377

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The only double transfers in this case are on the Trillium Line. The vast majority of Ottawa will be traveling to the core on the Confederation Line, or buses, if they are close enough.

In this case, I don't see how it benefits the majority of riders to have Trillium Line interlined. That would mean lower frequencies on the Confederation Line and probably short-turning at Hurdman (or rather termination of the Trillium Line there).

As it stands, that is correct, but we are talking about possibly connecting Rapibus or Gatineau LRT to Bayview, which will also create a double transfer.

But we also making claims about people living within 5 km of LRT. I am one of them, but it is not really of value to me because it does not take me downtown. If I did use it, it is 2 transfers, and I have already had bad experiences because it is not frequent enough and not reliable enough.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Line 1 was paid for out of the TTC farebox (OC Transpo cannot cover its operating expenses, let alone capital).

Line 2 was mostly cut and cover through backyards (try doing that in the 21st century)

Line 1 was funded by profits made by the TTC during World War II. The Ottawa Electric Railway was privately owned and was taxed heavily on its profits so there was little money to modernize after the war.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Or Toronto.

Line 1: 1954
Line 2: 1966 (opened 12 years later)

Considering it takes about a decade to plan, fund and build a new line, it isn't unreasonable to start discussing it now.

But you might say Toronto is much bigger, right? Well their CMA population in 1951 (3 years before their first line opened) was 1,262,000. Ottawa's CMA population in 1916 was 1,323,783 and if you want to exclude Quebec, the Ontario portion of the CMA is 991,726, so even then we aren't that far off.

You seriously think transit building in the 50s and 60s is relevant to today? Costs are substantially higher. Funding models are substantially different.

And yes, I was serious about Europe. The countries spending several multiples of what we do on transit infrastructure.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Which is ultimately what will happen.



After giving Ottawa $3 billion between Stage 1 and 2, money for subways will be a long shot. I won't say it's zero. But about as infinitesimally close to zero as you can get.

There are so many other areas of the province that need investment of all sorts. And those offer higher electoral payoffs too.

What you will see is everyone campaigning in Ottawa and talking about the brand new LRT and how they will extend it (Stage 2) after they get elected. You will not see new money pledged, over and above this.

There is a provincial election in Ontario this spring, right?
That bridge is owned by Ottawa, which is a city in Ontario, right?

Let the rain of money pour down.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's actually a good point. Ontario is going to fund a rail transit line that is partly on Quebec soil (and is likely to be the City of Ottawa's transit priority number 5 or 6 at best) when projects in other parts of the province will go unfunded?

Yes.

If the feds contribute and Quebec show up with funds for their side, then yes, it gets moved up the list.

Just look at the TYSSE in Toronto. There's a subway going to parking lots and greenfields. Why did the TTC build that? Because that was the only way to get provincial and federal funding for a subway to York U.

This is how things work in Canada.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

There is a provincial election in Ontario this spring, right?
That bridge is owned by Ottawa, which is a city in Ontario, right?

Let the rain of money pour down.

LOL. If you actually believe that any politician will pledge anything beyond Stage 2, I have a nice bridge that you might consider as an investment opportunity.....

1) Nobody campaigns on something that cannot happen in their term. Let alone 2 terms.

2) Nobody pledges new money before the current money is spent. We don't even have shovels in the ground for Stage 2 yet.

3) Ottawa is not the only city in the province to have transit needs. And the Confederation Line puts it substantially ahead of most other cities in Ontario, on meeting transit goals. For comparison, Mississauga is about the same population. And they are only getting their LRT getting started now (which will only cover one axes), and no other major LRT/BRT funding. Hamilton doesn't have shovels in the ground yet. London is looking at 7-10 years for their BRT to come into service. Kitchener-Waterloo doesn't have their Stage 2 firm yet. Kingston, Windsor and Sudbury have gotten absolutely nothing for higher order transit. And they could all use some BRT investment.

And you think in all that politicians will choose to follow up $2 billion spent on Stage 1, $3+ billion budgeted for Stage 2, with tens to hundreds of millions for the river crossing, during the next few months of campaigning?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yes.

If the feds contribute and Quebec show up with funds for their side, then yes, it gets moved up the list.

.

I can guarantee you that Gatineau and Quebec will not show up with the funds for their side if this specific project is not clearly more beneficial to the Gatineau side than any other option currently under consideration.

Which is exactly the present situation. Doing something with the PoW is likely the third or fourth priority/best option from Gatineau's perspective right now.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

For comparison, Mississauga is about the same population. And they are only getting their LRT getting started now (which will only cover one axes), and no other major LRT/BRT funding. Hamilton doesn't have shovels in the ground yet. London is looking at 7-10 years for their BRT to come into service. Kitchener-Waterloo doesn't have their Stage 2 firm yet. Kingston, Windsor and Sudbury have gotten absolutely nothing for higher order transit. And they could all use some BRT investment.

I dispute your argument that these are similar in size to Ottawa. Mississauga is a suburb of Toronto, so it doesn't have its own CMA but as a city, it has a population of 721,599, which is 77% of Ottawa's 934,243. Admittedly it is a difficult comparison to make though, especially since Mississauga is a suburb (and thus has a large number of commuters leaving the city) and Ottawa is an amalgamated city. Most suburbs don't get their own rapid transit system, but build off of the urban centre's one.

Hamilton's CMA has a population of 747,545, which is 75% of Ottawa's Ontario Portion of CMA of 991,726.

Kitchener-Waterloo's CMA has a population of 523,894, which is 53% of Ottawa's

London's CMA has a population of 494,069, which is 50% of Ottawa's

The remaining CMAs you listed (Windsor, Sudbury and Kingston) are aren't even remotely close at 33%, 17% and 16% respectively.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Doesn't provide an answer, but it narrows it down... maybe.


https://twitter.com/NCC_CCN/status/822113084521189377

My best guess would be that Windmill owns that portion of track when they bought all the former Domtar properties.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

For comparison, Mississauga is about the same population. And they are only getting their LRT getting started now (which will only cover one axes), and no other major LRT/BRT funding.

That's Mississauga's own damn fault.

Kingston, Windsor and Sudbury have gotten absolutely nothing for higher order transit.

I imagine they won't for a while, either: none of those three cities are good candidates for anything beyond street-running buses for a very long time.