Sunshine Coast Fixed Link

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

No they don't. What Fjords do the have experience with crossing?

Just like the Straight of Georgia, we're probably not going to tunnel under Howe Sound because it is very deep. Unless you're sure that you have really good rock underneath, nobody wants to work just under 600' of water.

There are a few deep crossings of Fjords in Norway, but the geology is very well suited to building tunnels.

For Howe Sound, I know the depth for most of the Fjord, but have no idea if there's any significant layers of sediments on top of the bedrock since bathymetry just tells the surface depth. Any hard rock tunnel depth would have to be at bedrock depth + about 50 metres additional depth. The deeper the tunnel, the longer it also has to be, which makes it more complex and expensive, and in general a bigger risk.

Assuming 300m tunnel depth, the ramps on both sides would be between 3km and 6km long, making for an overall length of between 8km (10% ramp grade) and 14km (5% ramp grade), depending on what is considered an acceptable angle for the ramps.

I'm not convinced that would be cheaper than a pair of 2km suspension spans.

I never did limit the crossing solution at Horseshoe Bay to a tunnel. I also said bridge. But be that as it may,...the Chinese are not scientifically dumb. They are engaged (as we communicate here) in numerous (difficult) engineering projects world wide. They are no less proficient than their Western engineering counterpart (who all have had their fair share of engineering failures). Notice that the Chinese have built a successful manned space program on their own? Has Canada?

[ssiguy]

NEVER going to happen and nor should it. The infrastructure needs of the province are to great to be spending untold billion connecting a population of just 40,000.

Even if you had spare cash I still think it's a waste. If BC Ferries was concerned about moving people {which it most definately isn't} instead of cars, there would be shuttle between Gibsons and Waterfront which would actually erve people, be cheaper, and significantly faster. The same should be done from Nanaimo to Waterfront and potentially even Comox as the distance is not very great and could be quite quick using high-speed passenger only ships.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

One possible solution approach would be to hire Canadian engineering firms to monitor the work of the Chinese contractors in the name of public safety. That's what we used to do in California when the state government hired private sector contractors (re: use government engineers/planners to monitor the work progress of private sector contractors to reduce private sector work site corruption/fraud etc.).

That is common practice in the Canadian tunnelling industry. Generally the risks are the big item to worry about rather than cost though. Typically the cheapest contractors are the ones best suited to the geology and risk management rather than the ones with the lowest cost of labour though.

Some foreign expert labour is generally used on most local tunnelling jobs. On Evergreen much of the crew spoke Italian due to SELI being the contractor.

I'd suspect with the beating that the mining industry has been taking recently, that' we'd be able to get local hard rock miners fairly easily.

[Vin]

Before they contemplate building this bridge link, perhaps they want to improve on the downtown Vancouver/North Shore link first. A 6-lane tunnel would be highly appreciated, exiting at Marine Drive and Highway 1. Lions Gate bridge can be turned into an all-bus/bicycle link.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

But be that as it may,...the Chinese are not scientifically dumb. They are engaged (as we communicate here) in numerous (difficult) engineering projects world wide. They are no less proficient than their Western engineering counterpart (who all have had their fair share of engineering failures). Notice that the Chinese have built a successful manned space program on their own? Has Canada?

Canada's problem is a lack of resources, not expertise. Inversely, China's problem is a lot of resources and a lack of expertise - or sometimes, scruples. There's a reason "Made in China" holds the same stigma as "Made in Japan" used to, and it's not just bigotry.

To use your space program example, China has managed a total of two stations and one in progress (analogous to SkyLab in the Seventies), and one lunar rover (which almost immediately broke down after landing). The Canadarm alone is well above that level of technology.
If we want to talk about space program triumphs in the developing world, try India. They managed to get a working satellite to Mars on the first try - not even NASA managed to do that!

Likewise for their engineering - the much-sensationalized Three Gorges Dam lies above an active fault line, and constantly causes earthquakes and landslides. Heck, there's already 80 cracks in the dam.

A dozen new bridges have collapsed (Tuo, Jiujang, Wuyishan Gongguan, Number 3 Qiantang, etc).

Their traffic-straddling super bus is too low for anything larger than an SUV, and might not even be able to turn.

Unsafe storage practices lead to near-daily industrial explosions.

Just last December, faulty construction practices in Shenzhen caused a landslide.

I'm aware that many PRC engineers actually take time and effort to get it right, but the overall track record leaves me VERY concerned that the Province might write the wrong contract to the wrong company and end up creating a Roland Emmerich movie waiting to happen (starring Mark Wahlberg, of course).

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

NEVER going to happen and nor should it. The infrastructure needs of the province are to great to be spending untold billion connecting a population of just 40,000.

Even if you had spare cash I still think it's a waste. If BC Ferries was concerned about moving people {which it most definately isn't} instead of cars, there would be shuttle between Gibsons and Waterfront which would actually erve people, be cheaper, and significantly faster. The same should be done from Nanaimo to Waterfront and potentially even Comox as the distance is not very great and could be quite quick using high-speed passenger only ships.

ssiguy says: The infrastructure needs of the province are to great to be spending untold billion connecting a population of just 40,000.

Caliplanner1 responds: ...."if you build it they will come". A Sunshine coast highway can easily attract a few hundred thousand (new) resident users over a short time-line after completion.

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Canada's problem is a lack of resources, not expertise. Inversely, China's problem is a lot of resources and a lack of expertise - or sometimes, scruples. There's a reason "Made in China" holds the same stigma as "Made in Japan" used to, and it's not just bigotry.

To use your space program example, China has managed a total of two stations and one in progress (analogous to SkyLab in the Seventies), and one lunar rover (which almost immediately broke down after landing). The Canadarm alone is well above that level of technology.
If we want to talk about space program triumphs in the developing world, try India. They managed to get a working satellite to Mars on the first try - not even NASA managed to do that!

Likewise for their engineering - the much-sensationalized Three Gorges Dam lies above an active fault line, and constantly causes earthquakes and landslides. Heck, there's already 80 cracks in the dam.

A dozen new bridges have collapsed (Tuo, Jiujang, Wuyishan Gongguan, Number 3 Qiantang, etc).

Their traffic-straddling super bus is too low for anything larger than an SUV, and might not even be able to turn.

Unsafe storage practices lead to near-daily industrial explosions.

Just last December, faulty construction practices in Shenzhen caused a landslide.

I'm aware that many PRC engineers actually take time and effort to get it right, but the overall track record leaves me VERY concerned that the Province might write the wrong contract to the wrong company and end up creating a Roland Emmerich movie waiting to happen (starring Mark Wahlberg, of course).

Migrant Coconut,...I'm not interested in defending China but I can't help but notice your negative attitude towards them. I hope that it isn't a blind anti communism thing? The reason for my curiosity lies in your examples. For instance, the Jiujang bridge collapse resulted from a boat collision (a violent accident that could bring down similarly built structures anywhere in the world). If you were a lawyer you'd be accused of hiding relevant facts-kidding here of course. Also, don't forget that the U.S. space program (like that of the Soviets) had some deadly growing pains.....remember the (86) Challenger shuttle disaster? Incompetence is a global reality that has to EFFECTIVELY managed by proper local oversight.....that's all I'm saying (though I do understand your general concern).

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

For instance, the Jiujang bridge collapse resulted from a boat collision (a violent accident that could bring down similarly built structures anywhere in the world). If you were a lawyer you'd be accused of hiding relevant facts-kidding here of course.

And that's what I get for remembering that half a dozen Chinese bridges collapsed in both 2007 and 2011, but not the individual causes for each. Thanks for the catch.

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

Also, don't forget that the U.S. space program (like that of the Soviets) had some deadly growing pains.....remember the (86) Challenger shuttle disaster? Incompetence is a global reality that has to EFFECTIVELY managed by proper local oversight.....that's all I'm saying (though I do understand your general concern).

True. The problem is that nobody really holds these companies/corporations accountable until after they ruin people's lives.

China doesn't have the reach or stability needed to oversee everything, although they do prosecute the guilty parties. AFAIK, they see the whole mess as an acceptable consequence of rapid urbanization.

And Canada doesn't seem to know (or care about) any of it, so long as the money flows in. Given some perspectives on the housing crisis... and the flag debacle a month ago... I'm not sure how much our government actually understands about other countries in general, much less China. Do they know enough to not walk straight into a bad deal?

[Conrad Yablonski]

Originally Posted by casper

Over the last few years I get the impression there has been a big shift in cargo from the Victoria area to Duke Point. Not certain if that is real or perception. An even more northern entry point would be odd with where the population base is located.

Are you not aware that Duke Point was in fact constructed to take truck traffic from the other routes?

Have you not ridden the route?

I did last month and do regularly it's a long boring ride to nowhere since you end up so far south of Nanaimo but suits some trips.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

I never did limit the crossing solution at Horseshoe Bay to a tunnel. I also said bridge. But be that as it may,...the Chinese are not scientifically dumb. They are engaged (as we communicate here) in numerous (difficult) engineering projects world wide. They are no less proficient than their Western engineering counterpart (who all have had their fair share of engineering failures). Notice that the Chinese have built a successful manned space program on their own? Has Canada?

A bridge and tunnel over Bowen Island or Gambriuns island is a no go because of the Island trust fund (their militant and organized and there is no way to deal with them). The government has already decided to not even attempt to try, and frankly that is a smart choice because they would never win (at-least not within the next few decades). Even Anvil island has 18 property owners but their not part of the Island trust fund and that's why it is a option.

The Chinese you forget have significant western help for many of their major engineering projects and those they don't they still have issues with as has been mentioned. Don't forget about that. It is still European and North American educated engineers that are often involved in most of the worlds limit pushing engineering projects (not all but most). However there are Chinese companies with significant experience in putting all the pieces together and at the end of the day that is what matters the most.

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by cornholio

A bridge and tunnel over Bowen Island or Gambriuns island is a no go because of the Island trust fund (their militant and organized and there is no way to deal with them). The government has already decided to not even attempt to try, and frankly that is a smart choice because they would never win (at-least not within the next few decades). Even Anvil island has 18 property owners but their not part of the Island trust fund and that's why it is a option.

The Chinese you forget have significant western help for many of their major engineering projects and those they don't they still have issues with as has been mentioned. Don't forget about that. It is still European and North American educated engineers that are often involved in most of the worlds limit pushing engineering projects (not all but most). However there are Chinese companies with significant experience in putting all the pieces together and at the end of the day that is what matters the most.

In that case the crossing will have to be a little further up Howe Sound,....wouldn't it!?

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

NEVER going to happen and nor should it. The infrastructure needs of the province are to great to be spending untold billion connecting a population of just 40,000.

Even if you had spare cash I still think it's a waste. If BC Ferries was concerned about moving people {which it most definately isn't} instead of cars, there would be shuttle between Gibsons and Waterfront which would actually erve people, be cheaper, and significantly faster. The same should be done from Nanaimo to Waterfront and potentially even Comox as the distance is not very great and could be quite quick using high-speed passenger only ships.

This has already been covered in previous pages. It isn't just about the people there. It has to do with opening up access to the towns and resources so the money earned through tolls and additional resource extraction and subsequent fees and taxes counter balance the increased debt load.

Unfortunately most people don't understand economics. A successful company is always investing in new things and ultimately going into debt to expand or improve. A company that sits on money and never goes into smart debt, invests, or expands, is doomed to ultimate failure. If there is a good and sound business case for this crossing then regardless of the cost it should be built.

[Migrant_Coconut]

There's basically two questions here.

A) If a connection is built, will it generate enough revenue to pay back its capital cost?

B) If yes, how will that change the region?

AFAIK, the Sunshine Coast right now is a popular destination because of its isolation. Beautiful, tranquil, quaint, quiet, natural, serene, removed from the hustle and bustle of urban life... and that's just me reading off random travel blogs.

The point is, bringing in the visitors/residents and investment needed to justify a connection may or may not ruin that, depending on what the plan is. So when Victoria gets around to commissioning people to study this thing, we (and they) should probably think long and hard about what we want the Coast to look like 50 years from now.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

There's basically two questions here.

A) If a connection is built, will it generate enough revenue to pay back its capital cost?

B) If yes, how will that change the region?

AFAIK, the Sunshine Coast right now is a popular destination because of its isolation. Beautiful, tranquil, quaint, quiet, natural, serene, removed from the hustle and bustle of urban life... and that's just me reading off random travel blogs.

The point is, bringing in the visitors/residents and investment needed to justify a connection may or may not ruin that, depending on what the plan is. So when Victoria gets around to commissioning people to study this thing, we (and they) should probably think long and hard about what we want the Coast to look like 50 years from now.

I would add a point to Question B)

B2) If parts of the sunshine coast are brought within commuting distance, how will the traffic generated by the invariably car-centric development of the region be handled by Lower Mainland roadways, and at whose expense?

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

There's basically two questions here.

A) If a connection is built, will it generate enough revenue to pay back its capital cost?

B) If yes, how will that change the region?

AFAIK, the Sunshine Coast right now is a popular destination because of its isolation. Beautiful, tranquil, quaint, quiet, natural, serene, removed from the hustle and bustle of urban life... and that's just me reading off random travel blogs.

The point is, bringing in the visitors/residents and investment needed to justify a connection may or may not ruin that, depending on what the plan is. So when Victoria gets around to commissioning people to study this thing, we (and they) should probably think long and hard about what we want the Coast to look like 50 years from now.

So, nobody goes there because it's too crowded?

The Olympic Peninsula, and Oregon Coast would argue otherwise and both those have similar proximity and reasonable road connections to their major city.

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

I would add a point to Question B)

B2) If parts of the sunshine coast are brought within commuting distance, how will the traffic generated by the invariably car-centric development of the region be handled by Lower Mainland roadways, and at whose expense?

How many Canadians lament that we Americans got too much good/flat arable (or development) lands when the U.S./Canada border was drawn (at the 49th parallel)? Well,...one way to help rectify that lack of economic expansion lands is to push road (and possibly rail) links into the now relatively isolated Sunshine Coast.

[twoNeurons]

The fears over the Sunshine Coast becoming a commuter suburb are unfounded.

Assuming the bridge crossing would use Anvil Island, it will be about 110–120 km to Sechelt.

Putting that into context... it's about as far as Agassiz is from Vancouver. Agassiz, in case you haven't been out there lately, isn't exactly a bustling metropolis. It IS growing slowly, but it's still a pastoral farm-like way of living in many parts. Chilliwack is much the same.

Add to that a toll, windy mountain roads, and a congested #99, and you won't get commuters on the Sunshine Coast any more than you currently have them. At least not as far as Sechelt. You'll get some growth in Port Mellon and Langdale, but there will still be quiet calm places on the Sunshine Coast.

What you WILL have is better access, more tourism, more opportunity for work and a better self-sufficient economy.

[twoNeurons]

As a bonus... looks like BC Hydro has kindly plowed a ROW through Nelson Island, so we don't even have to cut down any trees to lay the road... The short span could even be a cable-stayed bridge while the long span would likely be a suspension bridge.

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

As a bonus... looks like BC Hydro has kindly plowed a ROW through Nelson Island, so we don't even have to cut down any trees to lay the road... The short span could even be a cable-stayed bridge while the long span would likely be a suspension bridge.

A 1.1km cable stayed span would be tied with the longest cable stayed span on the planet. A 2.25km suspension span would be the longest ever built, it would have to be suspension as it's the only type of bridge that can have that long a span.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

A 1.1km cable stayed span would be tied with the longest cable stayed span on the planet. A 2.25km suspension span would be the longest ever built, it would have to be suspension as it's the only type of bridge that can have that long a span.

Shouldn't this be on the Sunshine Coast page?

But yeah, feasible or not, it's got Bridge to Nowhere written all over it.