HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Atlantic Provinces > Halifax > Halifax Peninsula & Downtown Dartmouth

About The Ads  This week the ad company used in the forum will be monitoring activity and doing some tests to identify any problems which users may be experiencing. If at any time this week you get pop-ups, redirects, etc. as a result of ads please let us know by sending an email to forum@skyscraperpage.com or post in the ads complaint thread. Thank you for your participation.


    22nd Commerce Square Tower [1] in the SkyscraperPage Database

Building Data Page   • Halifax Skyscraper Diagram

Map Location

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #201  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 4:06 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,882
When I was reading the report to the design review committee, there was a submission from the Heritage Trust insinuating some legal issues in terms of a pre-existing Halifax ordinance regarding heritage?

I've been looking for it; it was on their website but has mysterious disappeared - but I seem to recall it was attached to a council or committee report. The only letter I could find was this one, but I don't think it's the one I'm looking for. They made reference to a potential legal challenge on a couple things.

So if the delay is to have the City's law department go through the insinuations and build up a concrete defense or better yet; make necessary changes to the bylaws to get things going and defuse the threat; then I'm all for it. Whatever deflates their sails...I'm fine with.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #202  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 4:34 PM
musicman musicman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 270
Wish i had the time....

Wow i wish i had the time to write up such a report. The Heritage Lobby must have nothing better to do with their time... Amazing
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #203  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 5:20 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is online now
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 22,037
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
I don't know the status of the project (design review committee approved it, no?), but when a developer is trying to tear down three listed heritage buildings, I guess he should expect some red tape and opposition. That's not a Halifax-specific thing. What is a Halifax-specific thing is that whenever any tiny little hold-up in a project occurs, developers can go boo-hoo-ing to the press and get a sympathetic hearing, making the public feel like the heritage lobby is somehow enormously powerful in the city--when really, they're not.
I think the common factor here is lazy, uncritical reporting that parrots back what developers or heritage lobbyists say without challenging any of it.

Like you say, a development like this should be carefully evaluated and that takes time. Ideally the city will get a better building as a result. On the flip side of this, it's ridiculous that we've seen 3-4 years of absurd posturing over a convention centre that at this point is well under construction. The NIMBY lobby is pretending it's still up for debate when in reality there was extensive debate and public consultation that is now finished, and just about everybody else seems happy with the result. Time to move on.
__________________
flickr
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #204  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 6:13 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
I think the common factor here is lazy, uncritical reporting that parrots back what developers or heritage lobbyists say without challenging any of it.

Like you say, a development like this should be carefully evaluated and that takes time. Ideally the city will get a better building as a result. On the flip side of this, it's ridiculous that we've seen 3-4 years of absurd posturing over a convention centre that at this point is well under construction. The NIMBY lobby is pretending it's still up for debate when in reality there was extensive debate and public consultation that is now finished, and just about everybody else seems happy with the result. Time to move on.
Well said - that's the problem we run into a lot in Calgary in our growth areas. I did a public meeting last night for a project in Hillhurst and was amazed that we still had people debating the point of whether mixed use 6-8 storey buildings were appropriate on that street. I've come to the conclusion that for at least our work out here, the time of the 'passive' planner (being quiet, reserved) is over. So now I come out swinging and tell them; sorry that boat has sailed - whether you agree with it or not, Council has passed this plan and this is what we are here to implement. You are being asked about the design; what elements are good, okay and could be improved but the height is what council wants, along with the density.

I suspect they will likely appeal my project; but so be it. I'll work to get it to a reasonable balance of the community issues, policy requirements and city rules/regs and then get it to our planning commission for approval. But I've noticed with our folks a significant push back on our efforts and us digging our heals in or pushing back just as hard. I think that's good...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #205  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 8:56 PM
Colin May Colin May is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,201
Quote:
Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
Well said - that's the problem we run into a lot in Calgary in our growth areas. I did a public meeting last night for a project in Hillhurst and was amazed that we still had people debating the point of whether mixed use 6-8 storey buildings were appropriate on that street. I've come to the conclusion that for at least our work out here, the time of the 'passive' planner (being quiet, reserved) is over. So now I come out swinging and tell them; sorry that boat has sailed - whether you agree with it or not, Council has passed this plan and this is what we are here to implement. You are being asked about the design; what elements are good, okay and could be improved but the height is what council wants, along with the density.

I suspect they will likely appeal my project; but so be it. I'll work to get it to a reasonable balance of the community issues, policy requirements and city rules/regs and then get it to our planning commission for approval. But I've noticed with our folks a significant push back on our efforts and us digging our heals in or pushing back just as hard. I think that's good...
As long as you are within the legal bounds of your plan you will be successful.
It is not unknown for HRM planners to ignore the legal requirements of plans and bylaws and attempt to force a development through. And council had its knuckles rapped in court when they tried to sell St Pats Alexandra in direct violation of their established policy.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #206  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2014, 11:08 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
Honored Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Toronto area (ex-Nova Scotian)
Posts: 5,558
I see that there is an appeal of the Design Review Committee affirmative decision for the 22nd Commerce Square before Council on Tuesday, April 29th - http://halifax.ca/council/agendasc/d...140429ca91.pdf
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #207  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2014, 7:13 AM
counterfactual counterfactual is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 1,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
I see that there is an appeal of the Design Review Committee affirmative decision for the 22nd Commerce Square before Council on Tuesday, April 29th - http://halifax.ca/council/agendasc/d...140429ca91.pdf
Well, that explains it.

I hope once Council rejects the appeal, it's done, right?

Time for us to found our very own MoveOn.org for Halifax development.

Things are approved. Decision has been made. Move on.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #208  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2014, 1:35 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
Honored Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Toronto area (ex-Nova Scotian)
Posts: 5,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by counterfactual View Post
Well, that explains it.

I hope once Council rejects the appeal, it's done, right?

Time for us to found our very own MoveOn.org for Halifax development.

Things are approved. Decision has been made. Move on.

It will be interesting to see what side of the issue Councilor Waye Mason will be on. The appellants make a good case. However, I hope that this proposal will proceed with as much of the heritage buildings preserved as is feasible.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #209  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2014, 2:57 PM
Colin May Colin May is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,201
Quote:
Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
It will be interesting to see what side of the issue Councilor Waye Mason will be on. The appellants make a good case. However, I hope that this proposal will proceed with as much of the heritage buildings preserved as is feasible.
He'll vote with the majority - practical politics. Councillors do deals with colleagues.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #210  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2014, 5:36 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,274
Frankly, if this delays things slightly but results in full retention and restoration of even some of the heritage buildings (especially Champlain and Merchants Bank, which has a great interior) I'm okay with it. But no way will this derail the whole project--even if the appeal is successful (doubtful) they're definitely going to work with that, rather than abandon it.

I assume it'll be rejected, though. It seems that city council and the DRC consider facadism to be equivalent in most cases to preservation or even restoration. One look at Waterside Centre's embarrassingly cheap and chintzy street frontage on Water and Hollis should disprove that, but anyway...

That document is massive, but if anyone has read it or knows, are there plans to turn the heritage facades into actual building entrances or storefronts? That's the big failure of a lot of Halifax facadism from Waterside to Founders Square: the old building fronts are reduced to functionless decoration. They look like the corpses of old buildings prettying up the new ones. If they actually utilize the entry points of the facades, I'd feel a bit more positive (or less negative) about the demolition.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #211  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2014, 5:57 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is online now
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 22,037
It's long gone, but this is picture is somewhat upsetting. The larger building is the original Royal Bank head office; most of it was built around 1870.


Source


There would have been a really good case for turning this neighbourhood into a kind of "old town" around 1960 or so. A lot of great buildings were torn down, and many of them had some kind of national significance.
__________________
flickr
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #212  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2014, 6:10 PM
counterfactual counterfactual is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 1,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
It's long gone, but this is picture is somewhat upsetting. The larger building is the original Royal Bank head office; most of it was built around 1870.


Source


There would have been a really good case for turning this neighbourhood into a kind of "old town" around 1960 or so. A lot of great buildings were torn down, and many of them had some kind of national significance.
They tore down the RBC head office for that ugly as hell RBC midrise there now? Ugh. Lots of idiotic decisions taken in the 1960s.

Surprising that the bank itself, would let its original head office go. Dumb.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #213  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2014, 9:19 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,882
Did anyone happen to notice that there was an appeal on this scheduled for Regional Council today at 1pm? Apparently a number of adajcent property owners filed an appeal under HRMbyDesign. I wasn't watching so I don't know the outcome; but a lot of legal questions were brought up.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #214  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2014, 10:51 PM
ILoveHalifax ILoveHalifax is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Palm Beach Gardens FL
Posts: 1,007
I believe the appeal was defeated and the development can proceed. I was only half watching.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #215  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2014, 3:33 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
Honored Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Toronto area (ex-Nova Scotian)
Posts: 5,558
Allnovascotia.com reported that the appeal was voted down by a 15-1 vote. Councillor Watts was the lone supporter of the appeal.

Does Council still have to vote on whether to allow the substantive alterations to the heritage properties or is this vote also a vote to allow the alterations and proposal to proceed? Perhaps Council Waye mason could give an answer, or anyone else who knows.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #216  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2014, 7:52 AM
counterfactual counterfactual is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 1,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
Allnovascotia.com reported that the appeal was voted down by a 15-1 vote. Councillor Watts was the lone supporter of the appeal.

Does Council still have to vote on whether to allow the substantive alterations to the heritage properties or is this vote also a vote to allow the alterations and proposal to proceed? Perhaps Council Waye mason could give an answer, or anyone else who knows.
Watts often raises intelligent questions and points at Council. I don't know why she has to be such an idiot when it comes to stuff like this.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #217  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2014, 10:56 AM
ILoveHalifax ILoveHalifax is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Palm Beach Gardens FL
Posts: 1,007
Quote:
Originally Posted by counterfactual View Post
Watts often raises intelligent questions and points at Council. I don't know why she has to be such an idiot when it comes to stuff like this.
I'm beginning to wonder about her 'intelligent' questions. Every one is a clarification, starts with 'to be clear'. Is she the only one who cannot understand the reports in front of her? Everyone else seems to understand.
I sometimes wonder if she just likes to hear herself talk.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #218  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2014, 11:22 AM
Keith P.'s Avatar
Keith P. Keith P. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 6,182
I think she is one of those people who thinks she is smarter than everyone else in the room.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #219  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2014, 12:23 PM
ILoveHalifax ILoveHalifax is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Palm Beach Gardens FL
Posts: 1,007
Let's not be too hard on her. I am not sure but I think she was in favor of that ugly garden on the old QEH site.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #220  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2014, 1:56 PM
Colin May Colin May is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,201
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
I think she is one of those people who thinks she is smarter than everyone else in the room.
Women tend to ask questions when they are not sure about a subject.
Men will sit quietly, pretend to understand and then vote.
If every councillor/politician believed what was placed in front of them we would be in a much worse state. Last night Hendsbee knew more about condominium legislation regarding buildings and public space than the city solictor. ( he was right )
At a 1993/4 Neptune board meeting dealing with the proposed budget I asked if the organisation had Directors & Officers Liability Insurance. The answer was "No. We can't afford it"
Nobody else seemed bothered about the lack of D & O but I persisted and at another meeting a rep from a major bank told the president she would have to leave the board if Neptune did not have D & O. Major employers will not allow staff to serve on a board that does not have D & O. The cost was a couple of thousand dollars and the coverage was in place prior to construction of the new theatre. Amazing that all those, lawyers, accountants, executives and business people who had been board members and officers in earlier years had never asked the basic business question.
The only dumb question is the one you don't ask.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Atlantic Provinces > Halifax > Halifax Peninsula & Downtown Dartmouth
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 9:52 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.