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  #161  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2019, 5:33 PM
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Originally Posted by wave46 View Post
It's unpleasantly cold in winter and hard to farm much beyond Hearst and Sudbury in Ontario, so I could see settlement petering out for those reasons.

I've done the drive from Hearst to Thunder Bay. There's not too many places in this country that are as remote as that drive is, especially the strip from Hearst to Longlac.
My wife is descended from people who were part of the first waves of farmers in that part of Ontario. Must have been a tough life.

Then the regional economy quickly shifted toward forestry and mining.
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  #162  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2019, 5:49 PM
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My wife is descended from people who were part of the first waves of farmers in that part of Ontario. Must have been a tough life.

Then the regional economy quickly shifted toward forestry and mining.
Tangential question re: that area of Northern Quebec.

Do the residents of Rouyn or Val d'Or ever feel slighted by the Province of Quebec in the same way that residents of Northern Ontario do sometimes?

It is quite isolated from the rest of the province - the only link between the north and south is Quebec Route 117 and it's a pretty remote drive. I'd imagine that Montreal and Quebec City would feel very far away, like how someone in Timmins might feel Toronto is very far away, both in distance and politically speaking.

Or is it just not a thing?
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  #163  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2019, 5:49 PM
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Are you having ployes for lunch?
I do have buckweat flour and a flat pan. I'm probably the only one who eats them with Cheez Whiz.
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  #164  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2019, 5:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
To follow up on this, the Canadian (and American) officials who were concerned about the demographic growth and territorial expansion of French Canada weren't entirely a bunch of paranoid conspiracy theorists.

There was actually something going on at the time, Starting in the latter part of the 19th century and running well into the first half of the 20th.

In particular if you look at the legacy of Curé Antoine Labelle and politician and journalist (founder of Le Devoir) Henri Bourassa, there was clearly a movement to settle a large swathe of central-northern Canada with francophones.

Part of this was to build a demographic "bridge" of francophone settlement to help out the beleaguered Franco-Manitobans who were being fucked over by that province at the time, so they wouldn't be all alone out there.

The idea was that along a line going northwest from Montreal you'd have a band of towns and villages populated by francophone. All the way through NW Quebec, across northern Ontario and into Manitoba. A parallel settlement corridor to the anglo one that had taken shape to the south.

This would also help stymie the outflow of francophones to the US, and keep more of them within Canada's borders.

Today Curé Antoine Labelle is mostly known as the man who led the opening up of the Laurentians for settlement, but his vision and impact went far beyond that. The settlement of the Abitibi-Témiscamingue region happened in large part due to that impetus, and if you look at a map of where Canadian francophones live today you can see how francophone populations were implanted well into Ontario along a northern axis in the Kapuskasing-Hearst-Timmins region, and also along a more southerly one in the Sudbury/Nipissing area.

It does seem like the effort eventually petered out at Sudbury and Hearst going west.
If you look at the francophone population in east Ottawa and Prescott-Russell, it arrived around the same time. Prescott-Russell was originally built by anglophones--communities like Casselman, Rockland, and Hawkesbury were founded by British settlers and initially were solidly anglophone. The eastern part of Ottawa was also initially like this as well. But francophones from Quebec settled Prescott-Russell and the eastern fringes of Ottawa quite heavily in the late 19th century. Vanier was originally known as Eastview and was overwhelmingly anglophone, but became francophone majority over time and in the 1960s was renamed to reflect this fact.

Although some of the francophone settlement in the area is earlier. IIRC, L'Orignal was actually settled by the French when it was still New France, and I think Embrun was settled in the mid-19th century by francophones from Quebec.
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  #165  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2019, 5:52 PM
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Tangential question re: that area of Northern Quebec.

Do the residents of Rouyn or Val d'Or ever feel slighted by the Province of Quebec in the same way that residents of Northern Ontario do sometimes?

It is quite isolated from the rest of the province - the only link between the north and south is Quebec Route 117 and it's a pretty remote drive. I'd imagine that Montreal and Quebec City would feel very far away, like how someone in Timmins might feel Toronto is very far away, both in distance and politically speaking.

Or is it just not a thing?
Val d'Or has many direct flights so the "mental distance" is not there. Sept-Îles on the other hand has the isolation factor that would most ressemble Northern Ontario.
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  #166  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2019, 5:56 PM
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Val d'Or has many direct flights so the "mental distance" is not there. Sept-Îles on the other hand has the isolation factor that would most ressemble Northern Ontario.
Timmins does too, as do most of the cities in Northern Ontario to Toronto.

But you definitely feel like you're in a different place as compared to the South, when you're in Northern Ontario. It is moreso the further north you go and how reflective the local economy is of 'the North'.
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  #167  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2019, 5:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
To follow up on this, the Canadian (and American) officials who were concerned about the demographic growth and territorial expansion of French Canada weren't entirely a bunch of paranoid conspiracy theorists.

There was actually something going on at the time, Starting in the latter part of the 19th century and running well into the first half of the 20th.

In particular if you look at the legacy of Curé Antoine Labelle and politician and journalist (founder of Le Devoir) Henri Bourassa, there was clearly a movement to settle a large swathe of central-northern Canada with francophones.

Part of this was to build a demographic "bridge" of francophone settlement to help out the beleaguered Franco-Manitobans who were being fucked over by that province at the time, so they wouldn't be all alone out there.

The idea was that along a line going northwest from Montreal you'd have a band of towns and villages populated by francophone. All the way through NW Quebec, across northern Ontario and into Manitoba. A parallel settlement corridor to the anglo one that had taken shape to the south.

This would also help stymie the outflow of francophones to the US, and keep more of them within Canada's borders.

Today Curé Antoine Labelle is mostly known as the man who led the opening up of the Laurentians for settlement, but his vision and impact went far beyond that. The settlement of the Abitibi-Témiscamingue region happened in large part due to that impetus, and if you look at a map of where Canadian francophones live today you can see how francophone populations were implanted well into Ontario along a northern axis in the Kapuskasing-Hearst-Timmins region, and also along a more southerly one in the Sudbury/Nipissing area.

It does seem like the effort eventually petered out at Sudbury and Hearst going west.
In SW Manitoba there is a small community franco-Manitobans who I assume were part of this initiative. Dunrea is the name of the town and the surrounding farms have Boulet, Cote, Labossiere, Beaupre and others are prominent in the region.
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  #168  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2019, 4:26 AM
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Hence my reference to Ashley Furniture. It's somewhat bland, unadventurous stuff that is generally well built by modern standards, and it fills a lot of space in a big house.

IKEA is pointless if you live in a 2,000-3,000 square foot home as many Americans do... on the flipside, IKEA is perfect for 600 square foot apartments where you really need to maximize space with compact furniture. As far as I can tell, Americans outside of the dozen or so biggest east coast cities tend have a lot of space unless they're really, really hard up... for example, I recall visiting a neighbourhood in Rocky Mount, NC that looked very down at the heels, but was still filled with 1,500 sf and up 1950s and 60s ranch houses that would go for a million dollars in Toronto.
Hopefully not off topic, but there is no reason that living in a big city means that you have to live in a condo like is the practice in Vancouver & Toronto. Montreal is a great example of that. Denver has really perfected the 3-4 story vertical town home, which gives lots of space and mountain views. Vancouver maybe I can see given geographic restrictions (or not, I don't know well enough), but it seems in Toronto it's more of a policy issue where it's so hard to build that developers go for dozens of stories instead of very livable 3-8 story buildings.
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  #169  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2019, 6:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
To follow up on this, the Canadian (and American) officials who were concerned about the demographic growth and territorial expansion of French Canada weren't entirely a bunch of paranoid conspiracy theorists.

There was actually something going on at the time, Starting in the latter part of the 19th century and running well into the first half of the 20th.

In particular if you look at the legacy of Curé Antoine Labelle and politician and journalist (founder of Le Devoir) Henri Bourassa, there was clearly a movement to settle a large swathe of central-northern Canada with francophones.

Part of this was to build a demographic "bridge" of francophone settlement to help out the beleaguered Franco-Manitobans who were being fucked over by that province at the time, so they wouldn't be all alone out there.

The idea was that along a line going northwest from Montreal you'd have a band of towns and villages populated by francophone. All the way through NW Quebec, across northern Ontario and into Manitoba. A parallel settlement corridor to the anglo one that had taken shape to the south.

This would also help stymie the outflow of francophones to the US, and keep more of them within Canada's borders.

Today Curé Antoine Labelle is mostly known as the man who led the opening up of the Laurentians for settlement, but his vision and impact went far beyond that. The settlement of the Abitibi-Témiscamingue region happened in large part due to that impetus, and if you look at a map of where Canadian francophones live today you can see how francophone populations were implanted well into Ontario along a northern axis in the Kapuskasing-Hearst-Timmins region, and also along a more southerly one in the Sudbury/Nipissing area.

It does seem like the effort eventually petered out at Sudbury and Hearst going west.
It actually goes further West than Hearst. Longlac is about 50% francophone and Geraldton about 25%. So Geraldton is pretty much the end. Nakina which is to the North is almost half francophone from what I've heard. There is also Ignace which is 13% francophone according to its website and located in Kenora District on Hwy 17.

I work with someone from Geraldton who is francophone. She speaks French very well and much better than the average Franco-Ontarian.
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  #170  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2019, 6:54 AM
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In northern NB people swear like Québécois: câlisse, hostie, tabarnac, sacrement, etc.

But once you pass a specific point, roughly the bridge over the Miramichi River (dividing northern and southern NB), most Acadians no longer swear like that.
I hear those swear words quite often in Timmins. I always wondered where else outside Quebec and Ontario that you would hear those words used on a regular basis. So you wouldn't hear those words in Moncton?
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  #171  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2019, 7:13 AM
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Tangential question re: that area of Northern Quebec.

Do the residents of Rouyn or Val d'Or ever feel slighted by the Province of Quebec in the same way that residents of Northern Ontario do sometimes?

It is quite isolated from the rest of the province - the only link between the north and south is Quebec Route 117 and it's a pretty remote drive. I'd imagine that Montreal and Quebec City would feel very far away, like how someone in Timmins might feel Toronto is very far away, both in distance and politically speaking.

Or is it just not a thing?
Yes, people in Rouyn, Val-d'Or, La Sarre, etc. do feel that they are sometimes ignored by their provincial government and they feel isolated at times. But it's nothing like what we experience in Northern Ontario.

Quebec is all about its regions whereas in Ontario the North is just one big place on its own. A place like Rouyn-Noranda is visited by the QC Premier at least 2-3 times every year. But Timmins which has the same population as Rouyn might gets a visit by the ON Premier once every 5 years on average. Once example I remember is former Premier Dalton McGuinty was Premier from 2003 to 2013 (a decade) and NEVER visited Timmins as Premier!

The Quebec government is much more supportive of resourced based industries compared to Ontario. More money is given for arts, culture and recreation. And Rouyn has a university but Timmins doesn't. The Ontario government will often makes decisions that harm Northern Ontario for example in forestry but you won't see that happen in Quebec.

Southern Ontario often doesn't make us feel as part of the province. But in Quebec people in more isolated regions are treated much better by their government and political leaders.
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  #172  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2019, 12:33 PM
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i would add that alienation vs the south of the province is less intense in Abitibi due to almost everyone having roots there if you go back about a century.

In Timmins and northern Ontario it is much more common for people to have no prior family relationship with Toronto or southern Ontario.

Many early Timmins residents came directly from Quebec the Maritimes the UK or continental Europe.

The population is not descended from that of the south of the province like it is in Abitibi.
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  #173  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2019, 12:38 PM
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I hear those swear words quite often in Timmins. I always wondered where else outside Quebec and Ontario that you would hear those words used on a regular basis. So you wouldn't hear those words in Moncton?
Not so much from natives of the area though they would be very familiar with them due to the presence of people from northern NB and Quebec in the city. The university and stuff like Radio-Canada draws people from further afield.
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  #174  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2019, 12:41 PM
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If you look at the francophone population in east Ottawa and Prescott-Russell, it arrived around the same time. Prescott-Russell was originally built by anglophones--communities like Casselman, Rockland, and Hawkesbury were founded by British settlers and initially were solidly anglophone. The eastern part of Ottawa was also initially like this as well. But francophones from Quebec settled Prescott-Russell and the eastern fringes of Ottawa quite heavily in the late 19th century. Vanier was originally known as Eastview and was overwhelmingly anglophone, but became francophone majority over time and in the 1960s was renamed to reflect this fact.

Although some of the francophone settlement in the area is earlier. IIRC, L'Orignal was actually settled by the French when it was still New France, and I think Embrun was settled in the mid-19th century by francophones from Quebec.
Yes the L'Orignal area was home to a seigneurie during the French régime.

But most of the francophone towns in that area were originally anglo. Even ones with names that suggest otherwise like Plantagenet and Alfred.
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  #175  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2019, 12:45 PM
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It actually goes further West than Hearst. Longlac is about 50% francophone and Geraldton about 25%. So Geraldton is pretty much the end. Nakina which is to the North is almost half francophone from what I've heard. There is also Ignace which is 13% francophone according to its website and located in Kenora District on Hwy 17.

I work with someone from Geraldton who is francophone. She speaks French very well and much better than the average Franco-Ontarian.
You are right that it goes a bit further west than Hearst.

If you count a few small towns and villages it also goes a bit further west than Sudbury on the southern corridor. Places like Blind River, Dubreuilville and Elliott Lake.
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  #176  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2019, 3:42 PM
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I've given it some thought, and "Mother Country" is too strong a term. To me, it implies a level of subservience, aspiration, and conscious imitation that simply doesn't exist between Canada as a whole and the United States.

That said, an individual country music artist from rural Saskatchewan, a hip hop artist from Guelph, or a military brat from St. John's probably is looking to the United States as a "Mother Country". But that level of devotion or even awareness doesn't seem to exist as a whole.

For example, if you read newspaper articles and the like from the early 1950s when St. John's was adjusting to Confederation (which, as I've noted many times, voted overwhelmingly against), you'll see lots of sad laments to the loss of various British things, lots of complaints about the, as Mary Walsh put it, "dour and shoddy" goods of this "soulless federation". "She's a bit chilly", back then, meant you couldn't get past Canada's cold, polite facade. That level of displeasure and rejection I think shows Newfoundland saw the United Kingdom as its "Mother Country" at the time. We didn't just want to be like them, we thought we were them.

There's no significant segment of Canada as a whole that has that type of devotion to the United States. Parts of it used to have, toward the United Kingdom. But none of us do anymore.

Even the sentiment that existed here is foreign to me. That local level of devotion to the United Kingdom, instead of Ireland, feels like it couldn't possibly have existed here - but it clearly did.

*****

One aside regarding the OP - Someone123 already mentioned many settlers to the Maritimes came directly from Europe. I'd like to add a clarification from the other direction that some Newfoundland settlers did not. Many, many families - including portions of my mother's - arrived via Boston, or even settled there for years, before coming to Newfoundland.
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  #177  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2019, 4:49 PM
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Many, many families - including portions of my mother's - arrived via Boston, or even settled there for years, before coming to Newfoundland.
My impression is that before the US started to implement stricter immigration controls around the early 1900's, there was a window of time when it was common for immigrants to bounce around North America. Plus there were professionals who moved around starting later in the 19th century.

Back in the time before railways and steamships however people stayed put a lot more. The towns in the 1700's tended to be populated by families that came on specific ships and that was it. The price of travel was so high that some people agreed to become indentured servants for years in exchange for passage across the Atlantic. Most towns in Nova Scotia have specific founding ships or events. For example, Pictou was settled by Highland Scots who came on the ship Hector in 1773 and you can visit the replica ship there. Truro was founded by a group of Ulster Scots in 1761. Dartmouth settlers came on the Alderney and that's why there's an Alderney Landing there. It's very common for people doing genealogy research in NS to look up the ship their ancestors came on.

The New England Planters are interesting too. They moved to Nova Scotia in the 1750's, mostly settling the Annapolis Valley after the expulsion of the Acadians. They didn't turn into revolutionaries a couple of decades later and they weren't big fans of the Loyalists. In the 1700's at least there doesn't seem to have been much sense of American solidarity. I suspect that if you spoke to them about the 13 colonies being a "mother country" the whole idea would have made no sense to them whatsoever. They merely moved from one isolated coastal town to another, and some of them were already recent settlers from Britain. There wasn't even much sense of nation states back then. The main identities were Catholic and Protestant. Like I've pointed out before, Britain appointed a Francophone governor to Nova Scotia in 1740. He was considered a good choice because he was bilingual and a Huguenot.
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  #178  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2019, 4:59 PM
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Originally Posted by p_xavier View Post
Val d'Or has many direct flights so the "mental distance" is not there. Sept-Îles on the other hand has the isolation factor that would most ressemble Northern Ontario.
But for some reason despite the isolation factor the people in these regions feel absolutely and totally Québécois (probably even more than us in the south).

(Unless of course you go even further into remoteness, into areas where most people are aboriginal.)
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  #179  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2019, 5:04 PM
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My impression is that before the US started to implement stricter immigration controls around the early 1900's, there was a window of time when it was common for immigrants to bounce around North America. Plus there were professionals who moved around starting later in the 19th century.

Back in the time before railways and steamships however people stayed put a lot more. The towns in the 1700's tended to be populated by families that came on specific ships and that was it. The price of travel was so high that some people agreed to become indentured servants for years in exchange for passage across the Atlantic. Most towns in Nova Scotia have specific founding ships or events. For example, Pictou was settled by Highland Scots who came on the ship Hector in 1773 and you can visit the replica ship there. Truro was founded by a group of Ulster Scots in 1761. Dartmouth settlers came on the Alderney and that's why there's an Alderney Landing there. It's very common for people doing genealogy research in NS to look up the ship their ancestors came on.

The New England Planters are interesting too. They moved to Nova Scotia in the 1750's, mostly settling the Annapolis Valley after the expulsion of the Acadians. They didn't turn into revolutionaries a couple of decades later and they weren't big fans of the Loyalists. In the 1700's at least there doesn't seem to have been much sense of American solidarity. I suspect that if you spoke to them about the 13 colonies being a "mother country" the whole idea would have made no sense to them whatsoever. They merely moved from one isolated coastal town to another, and some of them were already recent settlers from Britain. There wasn't even much sense of nation states back then. The main identities were Catholic and Protestant. Like I've pointed out before, Britain appointed a Francophone governor to Nova Scotia in 1740. He was considered a good choice because he was bilingual and a Huguenot.
Definitely. The one that surprises me most is Michigan. I have a lot of distant relatives who ended up there.

I already knew about Nova Scotia, Boston, and Montreal. But had NO idea anyone related to me ended up in Michigan.

These were my ancestors by 1875:

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Last edited by SignalHillHiker; Oct 20, 2019 at 10:19 AM.
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  #180  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2019, 5:08 PM
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Regarding Canadians thinking of the US as their mother country, obviously none of them do. That is the point of this thread: to put forth an idea that is outside the box and provocative.
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