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View Poll Results: Who did you vote for?
Liberal Party 75 38.66%
Conservative Party 47 24.23%
New Democratic Party 37 19.07%
People's Party 11 5.67%
Bloc Québécois 6 3.09%
Green Party 13 6.70%
Other 5 2.58%
Voters: 194. You may not vote on this poll

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  #641  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 4:04 AM
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Proportional representation would likely be a disaster for the Conservatives, since it would produce perpetual "minority government" situations where the Liberals, NDP and Greens would generally be able to unite to form government even if the Conservatives had won the most votes and seats.
Well, the NDP isn't going to form a lead role in one of those governments at first, either. They're about as in-touch with the general population as most of the Conservatives. The main benefit to the Conservatives, that the NDP doesn't have, is a strong base in Western Canada.

Even still, Stephen Harper found a fair amount of common ground with the NDP at various points in time when he was in a minority situation. If the Conservatives had a platform more like Patrick Brown's OPC, they likely would have won a majority in this election.

Canadians, for the most part, are left leaning, but that doesn't mean a centre-right party can't win. It just means it has to completely excise its social conservative wing. A platform of austerity and social conservatism is never going to win an election in this country, and if it does, it will be one of those "40% of the vote but 60% of the seats" kind of governments that we gave to Justin, and we all saw how that shit went straight to his head in no time.

A lot of Canadians want fiscal conservatism, they just don't want it with the religion or "traditional family values", which is code for "you're going to live the way we tell you or we will ostracize you".

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Mods? Who the hell is this guy.
He's a Born Again Jew! I never knew they could be as annoying as the Born Again Christians! It's like, when you're a furry and you spot another furry at the cinema and start talking about your favourite My Little Pony.
     
     
  #642  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 4:04 AM
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Forgive me; we all engage in digressions here from time to time; but is this particular faith-based tangent pertinent to this thread? Because if it is; I'm missing it; if not, perhaps this could be taken offline/private.....
sorry.
     
     
  #643  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 4:05 AM
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He's a Born Again Jew! I never knew they could be as annoying as the Born Again Christians!
What is wrong with Born Again Christians?
     
     
  #644  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 4:08 AM
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What is wrong with Born Again Christians?
They're like Vegans. They never shut up about it. Nice people, but please, stop proselytizing and change the subject! Every minute I spend with one inches me closer and closer to sponsoring a Canadian Bill 21.
     
     
  #645  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 4:12 AM
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They're like Vegans. They never shut up about it. Nice people, but please, stop proselytizing and change the subject! Every minute I spend with one inches me closer and closer to sponsoring a Canadian Bill 21.


Every major war can be traced back to religious clashes.

Last edited by GregSF; Oct 23, 2019 at 4:24 AM.
     
     
  #646  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 4:20 AM
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Every major war can be traced back to religious clashes.
And, man, you don't need to look any further than Israel and Palestine for proof of that!

Anyway, back on topic: Both Andrew Scheer and Justin Trudeau's statements after the election have me feeling like both are too arrogant to actually govern in a minority situation. It sounds to me like Trudeau is going to try as hard as he can to act business-as-usual, and Scheer, should he succeed Trudeau, will likely govern in very much the same way, proposing policies that no other party likes and using inflammatory and divisive language to shame their opposition to them.

The downside for us lefties is that Trudeau is doing this first, so the backlash will be against him and could lead to a Scheer majority in election 44. If the government falls soon and Scheer is handed the reins of Parl43 for a period of time, it will be more likely to backfire on Scheer in election 44, especially if the Liberals have enough time to find a new leader before then. It would actually be in Scheer's best interest to not become prime minister during the 43rd parliament. Wait this thing out for at least 18 months so that Trudeau has enough time to fully and thoroughly shoot himself in the foot with his arrogance (and get those more balanced committees to look into that which needs looking into) and things will probably play into the Conservatives hands. That is, sadly, where I see this going at the current moment.

The Liberals could prevent it by implementing proportional representation (ranked ballots won't get support from the NDP or Bloc) but considering it was the Liberals more than any other party who benefited from the distortion of FPTP, I don't see them actually delivering on that promise. Election 44 will be FPTP. Trudeau's promise of electoral reform is completely dead.
     
     
  #647  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 4:25 AM
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And, man, you don't need to look any further than Israel and Palestine for proof of that!

Anyway, back on topic: Both Andrew Scheer and Justin Trudeau's statements after the election have me feeling like both are too arrogant to actually govern in a minority situation. It sounds to me like Trudeau is going to try as hard as he can to act business-as-usual, and Scheer, should he succeed Trudeau, will likely govern in very much the same way, proposing policies that no other party likes and using inflammatory and divisive language to shame their opposition to them.

The downside for us lefties is that Trudeau is doing this first, so the backlash will be against him and could lead to a Scheer majority in election 44. If the government falls soon and Scheer is handed the reins of Parl43 for a period of time, it will be more likely to backfire on Scheer in election 44, especially if the Liberals have enough time to find a new leader before then. It would actually be in Scheer's best interest to not become prime minister during the 43rd parliament.
You may be right, but I'd be inclined to give it a bit of time to see what is posturing and what is real. I was a bit disappointed to see that Trudeau wasn't able to break out of "spin" in his speech. Didn't see Scheer's.
     
     
  #648  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 4:26 AM
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Vid, you have Jewish ancestry too. No shame in that. If you are in Winnipeg this spring, I want you to spend Passover with Pinus and I. We will breakout the chametz.


I do like potato pancakes.

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אדוני היקר למעלה, בבקשה תרפא את וידי אורח חייו הסוטה. לרפא אותו מאורח חייו הלא טבעי, ומצא אותו אישה אוהבת, בה הוא יכול להיכנס לממלכת אלוקים
Why, thank you! No one has ever said this to me before!
     
     
  #649  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 4:26 AM
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I came away from that election truly believing Jagmeet Singh would ahve made the best leader.
     
     
  #650  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 4:29 AM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
You may be right, but I'd be inclined to give it a bit of time to see what is posturing and what is real. I was a bit disappointed to see that Trudeau wasn't able to break out of "spin" in his speech. Didn't see Scheer's.
I went to bed before all of them and I've only heard snippets in the news, so there will be a bit of a slant. Scheer sounded quite combative, using phrasing like "the fights not over" and "we're ready to take over" while Trudeau was his arrogant self, sounding as if he won a majority, saying "Canadians sent us back to finish our work" as if 33% of the vote actually meant something.

I really hate the skew and distortion that FPTP does. You can see in real time how the amount of power it grants for so little support really gets to the head of those who win in it, and it seems to be only getting worse. If I were a politician that only got 33% of the vote to win my seat, I would constantly be aware of the fact that most people didn't want me to be there and actively seek out their opinions to build a more ideal, populist platform. But that's just me. And I'm sure if I actually did win absolute power with a third of the vote, I'd go just as crazy as Trudeau and Harper did.
     
     
  #651  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 4:34 AM
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I went to bed before all of them and I've only heard snippets in the news, so there will be a bit of a slant. Scheer sounded quite combative, using phrasing like "the fights not over" and "we're ready to take over" while Trudeau was his arrogant self, sounding as if he won a majority, saying "Canadians sent us back to finish our work" as if 33% of the vote actually meant something.

I really hate the skew and distortion that FPTP does. You can see in real time how the amount of power it grants for so little support really gets to the head of those who win in it, and it seems to be only getting worse. If I were a politician that only got 33% of the vote to win my seat, I would constantly be aware of the fact that most people didn't want me to be there and actively seek out their opinions to build a more ideal, populist platform. But that's just me. And I'm sure if I actually did win absolute power with a third of the vote, I'd go just as crazy as Trudeau and Harper did.
Many would agree with you, but unless or until the Liberals and Conservatives can agree on something else, FPTP it is.
     
     
  #652  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 6:16 AM
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They're like Vegans. They never shut up about it. Nice people, but please, stop proselytizing and change the subject! Every minute I spend with one inches me closer and closer to sponsoring a Canadian Bill 21.
They are not all like that. Just like it isn't true that all homosexuals continually flaunt their lifestyle and sexuality in everyones face because quite honestly, most people couldn't care less.
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Last edited by Pinus; Oct 23, 2019 at 7:14 AM.
     
     
  #653  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 6:57 AM
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The Liberals could prevent it by implementing proportional representation (ranked ballots won't get support from the NDP or Bloc) but considering it was the Liberals more than any other party who benefited from the distortion of FPTP, I don't see them actually delivering on that promise. Election 44 will be FPTP. Trudeau's promise of electoral reform is completely dead.
I could see the NDP getting behind proportional representation, and I could see the Bloc hating it.

This election
Libs 33.1% (could have been 112 seats)
Cons 34.4% (could have been 116 seats)
NDP got 16% (could have been 54 seats)
Bloc got 7.7% (could have been 26 seats)
Greens 6.5% (could have been 22 seats)

If we have to have a party system (and to my dismay I believe we do) this is the most fair way to do it. Every vote actually does matter all of the sudden and there would be alot less of the strategic voting for the lesser of two evils. A vote for the Cons in Victoria is not longer a waste of energy, and a vote for the NDP in AB actually matters.

Won't happen but it's a nice idea. Opens the door for a lot of fringe parties, as it would not be tough to get 1 percent of the vote and a few seats (PPC would have 5.5 seats rather than a resounding door slammed in face).
     
     
  #654  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 11:45 AM
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Online name calling between Alberta, N.L. an unexpected post-election fallout



Quote:
The two provinces have a lot in common, but the tone of the online comments between Alberta and Newfoundland and Labrador — who have a shared economic reliance on oil — took many by surprise after Monday night's federal election.

In N.L., six of the province's seven seats went to Liberal incumbents; in Alberta, voters chose Conservative candidates in all but one of its 34 ridings, shutting out the Liberals completely.

The lacklustre federal campaign in N.L. made Monday night's results unsurprising, much like the Conservative results in Alberta, where the campaign saw people voice concerns about the oil industry, economy and jobs.

...

In Newfoundland and Labrador, the number of total votes for the Liberals was 107,266; in Alberta, the total was 279,940.

...

"We can't continue to go down this road. Every election it seems to be getting worse," he said.

"Social media has a purpose in life, it serves a great purpose, but when it gets into the bullying and the hatred, then that's when it becomes a concern and we have to find a way to get around that."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfo...lout-1.5331654

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Last edited by SignalHillHiker; Oct 23, 2019 at 12:21 PM.
     
     
  #655  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 1:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Bishop2047 View Post
I could see the NDP getting behind proportional representation, and I could see the Bloc hating it.

This election
Libs 33.1% (could have been 112 seats)
Cons 34.4% (could have been 116 seats)
NDP got 16% (could have been 54 seats)
Bloc got 7.7% (could have been 26 seats)
Greens 6.5% (could have been 22 seats)

If we have to have a party system (and to my dismay I believe we do) this is the most fair way to do it. Every vote actually does matter all of the sudden and there would be alot less of the strategic voting for the lesser of two evils. A vote for the Cons in Victoria is not longer a waste of energy, and a vote for the NDP in AB actually matters.

Won't happen but it's a nice idea. Opens the door for a lot of fringe parties, as it would not be tough to get 1 percent of the vote and a few seats (PPC would have 5.5 seats rather than a resounding door slammed in face).
It's why I prefer STV. It maintains some form of local representation while also keeping fringe out.

Under STV, Bernier would be in Ottawa but he would be the only one.
     
     
  #656  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 2:17 PM
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One of the very best opinion pieces I have ever read by Neil MacDonald (from CBC).

The preachy, gauzy, meaningless aphorisms don't suffice, Justin Trudeau: Neil Macdonald
Prime minister has become a master of the non-answer, and it hurt him at the ballot box
Neil Macdonald · CBC News · Posted: Oct 23, 2019 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 4 hours ago
https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/neil...nion-1.5331427

And, yes, he says bad things about Andrew Scheer too.........

Quote:
But what really soured former supporters, I'd submit, was (Trudeau's) cynical, patronizing, condescending, arrogant, insulting belief that voters don't deserve a straight answer – that preachy, gauzy, meaningless aphorisms will suffice.

There is a small industry out there called media training. It offers instruction on how to "control a narrative," to use that awful term. Most politicians are clients.

The prime directive of media training is that the question never matters. That an honest response is for amateurs. Media trainers advise memorizing a set of non-responses and repeating them no matter what question is asked.
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It takes gall to do that, to stand there not being open and repeatedly declare you're being open, but Trudeau has plenty of gall. Shamelessness pays.

He has, in fact, understood that from the day he took power in 2015. He and his cabinet quickly mastered the non-answer, delivered with the glassy smile, and deployed it relentlessly across the Commons floor, to journalists, and to the public. All answers from any ministry were co-ordinated, scripted, and almost uniformly non-responsive.
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Anyway, to paraphrase Trudeau from four years ago, this is 2019. Treacly, evasive cynicism is voter repellent. You'd think this would be self-evident.

And yet Trudeau is already declaring, with a straight face, that voters gave him "a clear mandate" on Monday. Seriously, he said that.

With a minority government, we all know we'll be back at this again in another year and a half or so.

The two big parties have until then to pick more authentic leaders. Here's an idea: choose women. They tend to make better managers. Or maybe somebody who actually has a black face. Because it is, you know, 2019.
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  #657  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 2:19 PM
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A question... if Christine Elliott had won the Tory leadership in Ontario (and she too did garner more votes than Ford in the contest) would Andrew Scheer be the next Prime Minister?

I am willing to bet it would at least have been a lot closer. Of course, it is purely hypothetical and we will never know the answer.
     
     
  #658  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 2:20 PM
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It's interesting the narrative I'm hearing online, but also largely in person here in Saskatchewan.

This election was a referendum on carbon pricing. And 65% of the country voted to support it.

Even 33.6% of Saskatchewan voted for support it. Alberta lower. But every other province voted in favor of it.
     
     
  #659  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 2:27 PM
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Yeah the environment is becoming more and more of an issue in the political scene; something the Tories really need to take note of.

On the provincial level, with respect to the Carbon Tax, the election has convinced NB's Conservative premier to stop resisting and bring in NB's own carbon tax. With 7/10ths of the province going Red or Green instead of Blue it was a pretty clear message to him, one he is hearing.
     
     
  #660  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2019, 2:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
It's interesting the narrative I'm hearing online, but also largely in person here in Saskatchewan.

This election was a referendum on carbon pricing. And 65% of the country voted to support it.
That's pretty simplistic. There are always many issues in a federal general election.

It is interesting to note though that Conservative Premier Blaine Higgs here in New Brunswick has decided that the election result was indeed a referendum on carbon pricing.

The province was non compliant with federal standards, and JT imposed his own carbon price on the province, that Higgs was prepared to go to court over. The federal election result however had 6 LIB & 1 GRN returned from NB, and only 3 CON. Higgs has taken the message and now says he plans to come up with his own carbon pricing strategy.

EDIT - I see Taeolas beat me by one minute.
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