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  #81  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2019, 7:35 PM
lio45 lio45 is online now
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
Who would have thought an urban forum would have so many people who are so into trees.

In my case it's almost the same thing - I'm into long-term real estate investing and that means good quality land in a good location with the highest-quality buildings and/or trees on it.

Even from an urban point of view - high-quality, pleasant architecture and high-quality, pleasant landscaping are pretty closely related. That Chicago street Via Chicago posted (his street), to me the centenarian buildings and centenarian trees are both core ingredients for the feel of the neighborhood.
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  #82  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2019, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
I went to see my mystery tree today, here are pics of the leaves and bark. I found another younger tree of the same species nearby, took pics of that one too as it shows less mature bark (one more clue).

It does look like elm to me... however no idea if red ("Slippery") or white ("American").

The base of the leaves don't really have that asymmetry that Northern Light highlighted, but if it's not an elm I really don't see what else it can be.

IMG_1124

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And here's the bark of a younger individual:

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Yeah that looks like an elm. However, elms can be really hard to tell apart, so guessing the particular species would be beyond me.
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  #83  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2019, 3:00 AM
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Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007 View Post
Yeah that looks like an elm. However, elms can be really hard to tell apart, so guessing the particular species would be beyond me.
I wonder if it resisted DED or was never exposed to it. It's been reproducing, so maybe I could send one of the smaller offspring for analysis or something. Maybe it's somewhat disease-resistant, which would be nice.
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  #84  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2019, 6:40 PM
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I guess I'm 5 pages late, but it makes sense that richer areas have more trees than poorer areas. Richer people can afford to waste space (depending on your point of view) on a tree. Poorer people need to make more use of limited space.
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  #85  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 2:41 AM
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Not to mention that rich people have more time and money to spend planting and tending a lavish landscape on their property.
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  #86  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 2:58 AM
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Quote:
I went to see my mystery tree today, here are pics of the leaves and bark. I found another younger tree of the same species nearby, took pics of that one too as it shows less mature bark (one more clue).

It does look like elm to me... however no idea if red ("Slippery") or white ("American").

The base of the leaves don't really have that asymmetry that Northern Light highlighted, but if it's not an elm I really don't see what else it can be.
Hopefully it is a resistant elm but I remember a magnificent specimen on my grandparent's farm. It was probably 100 feet tall and had that magnificent high umbrella form of a typical mature elm. It survived for years after the main onslaught of Dutch Elm Disease in the 1960s and 1970s. Then the great ice storm of 1998 came which broke many branches. Perhaps it was age and very thick bark that protected this specimen, but when the tree was damaged, it was quickly attacked by Dutch Elm disease and was dead within a few years. I could have cried.
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  #87  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2019, 2:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
I went to see my mystery tree today, here are pics of the leaves and bark. I found another younger tree of the same species nearby, took pics of that one too as it shows less mature bark (one more clue).

It does look like elm to me... however no idea if red ("Slippery") or white ("American").

The base of the leaves don't really have that asymmetry that Northern Light highlighted, but if it's not an elm I really don't see what else it can be.






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So............

I didn't forget about you.

There were some competing indicators............so I sent your photos to a professional forester friend for a second opinion.

We compared notes and we are reasonably confident that its Red Elm.

The peeling of the bark on the mature specimen near the bottom is inconsistent with Ironwood.

Its also tough to tell, but the tree appears a bit too tall for Ironwood, which we agreed caps out at about 40ft.

The leaves are resprouts and those on any tree often show substantial variation from the typical leaf of a given tree.

But by way of deciding the bark precludes Ironwood, we assume the leaf must be Elm.

To differentiate Red from White elm is tough and more about the buds than anything.

That said, the Red Elm leaf tends to be a bit narrower and the teeth a bit finer than on White Elm. Not a hard/fast rule.........

But on the basis, Red Elm seems most likely.

Also, unfortunately, the peeling of the lower bark and the extensive resprouting may be indicative of Dutch Elm.

It certainly suggests the tree is stressed at the canopy level.

The stress could have other causes.

If it does have DED its worth saying its often not fatal, some trees power through.
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  #88  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 5:00 AM
lio45 lio45 is online now
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Really appreciate the info!

There's a younger one nearby, the limbs branch out almost the way American Beech tends to, pretty low on the trunk compared to most species. And it's got more easily observable foliage than this taller one.

There aren't that many resprouts, when I look at my pics it's easy to get the impression there are many but in fact, there's only three (they're all visible in the first pic; I was trying to get more angles so that's why there's a bunch of pics).

I should have touched the leaves without gloves (will do that next time), Red Elm has a rougher texture (reminiscent of sandpaper) no?

Also, I'm very familiar with Ironwood, that's not that, 100% sure. (There's actual Ironwood nearby.)

This tree isn't the tallest in the area at all so maybe that's why it's stressed a bit and having a few resprouts. Elm likes to dominate the canopy, doesn't it? It won't grow as well under a canopy...?

I have pics of the younger one too, maybe you'll be able to draw further conclusions from it... the bark in that one pic looks healthy, right? They're very close to each other, wouldn't they both have DED if one does?

Thanks again for the info very nice of you!
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  #89  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 10:59 AM
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In my tiny Tokyo “yard”, we transplanted in a Himalayan elm, an olive tree, and of course a Japanese maple. I’ve loved Japanese maples since I was a little kid, along with weeping willows. I love the movement both have.

Basically, I’m in love with Olmsted and all his amazing works and innovations.
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  #90  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
In my tiny Tokyo “yard”, we transplanted in a Himalayan elm, an olive tree, and of course a Japanese maple. I’ve loved Japanese maples since I was a little kid, along with weeping willows. I love the movement both have.

Basically, I’m in love with Olmsted and all his amazing works and innovations.

I don't have a Japanese maple, and I love them too, but I have a Gingko that must have been planted 40 or 50 years ago and provides a canopy on our back deck. The Gingko has no known disease that affects it.

My two beauties though that also give super shade are Catalpas that othees have raved about and justifiably so. Mine were planted maybe thirty to forty years ago, I guess, on the lakefront across the street. I have been painting watercolors of the lake and mountains and the old Chambly fort sitting beneath them for shade. I've also painted them in a number of pictures.

Unfortunately, one of them is late blooming, and I believe it is due to the harsh winters. It is planted in the corner of the concrete parapet that leads to the boat landing, so the roots are exposed to the frozen concrete for a long period.
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  #91  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Really appreciate the info!
You're welcome.

Quote:
I should have touched the leaves without gloves (will do that next time), Red Elm has a rougher texture (reminiscent of sandpaper) no?
Yes. With the caveat that American/White isn't always silky smooth; but Red always has the rough texture.

Quote:
This tree isn't the tallest in the area at all so maybe that's why it's stressed a bit and having a few resprouts. Elm likes to dominate the canopy, doesn't it? It won't grow as well under a canopy...?
Correct again. Elm, given a chance will be right up at the top.

Its definitely a sun-lover; and tends to appear more often at the edges of forests. But sometimes one sprouts because of an opening in the canopy, further in to a forest.

Quote:
I have pics of the younger one too, maybe you'll be able to draw further conclusions from it... the bark in that one pic looks healthy, right? They're very close to each other, wouldn't they both have DED if one does?
The young one has those lenticils (straight lines going across the bark) which really isn't that characteristic. If the leaves look identical, its probably the same tree as the larger one; though, since you didn't show the leaves on the smaller one, we debated as to whether it could be Ironwood, but settled on individual variation being the most likely answer.

Could also be a local variant for you, since my expertise in southern Ontario. Mostly same species; but a few hundred KM away can mean local quirks.

The young one isn't that likely to have DED yet, or at least be symptomatic, in my experience you don't see it super young elms. But certainly if its parent has it, and is nearby, its likely the younger one will as well, in time.

In general, elms with a distance of 20ft or less between them are considered at near 100% risk for spreading the disease, while elms greater than 40ft see a significant decrease.

Note that you can slow/stop the disease by removing diseased limbs, before it spreads.

This site is a decent resource:

https://www.apsnet.org/edcenter/disa.../DutchElm.aspx
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  #92  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2019, 8:25 PM
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Here's the pics of the younger one, starting with another pic of its trunk. It's about ~20 ft away from the other one, I'd say.

All the elm leaf foliage visible in pic 2-3-4-5 belongs to that tree.

In the last pic, you can see the trunk, slightly right of the center of the pic. In the image, no less than six limbs are visible.

The other tree being bigger and older means I can't really see the configuration of the limbs (they're lost in the canopy), at least until winter comes, but this one allows us to see them so that's extra clues. It does branch out pretty laterally for a tree that grew under a canopy, a bit like American Beech would (the most extreme of the hardwoods I'm familiar with, for that particular characteristic).



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  #93  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 2:45 AM
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Loving this discussion, I'm very interested in trees and urban landscaping. With all of the talk of elms, blight, and once-trendy nuisance replacements I'm surprised the much maligned (by me anyway) Norway Maple hasn't come up. These things are the absolute worst! The appeal was/is they grow fast and are resistant to everything, in terms of disease and pollution. These traits are also part of what makes them terrible. They take over and outcompete everything in their path. My small upstate NY city gets woodsy on the fringes and Norway Maples have choked out most of the native trees. Saplings are everywhere...growing up through hedges, on the sides of buildings, even in cracks in pavement. When full grown they are not at all attractive - a drab dark green, leaf spot is very common. For a maple, fall color is a huge bust. Quickly yellow, then quickly brown. Leaves hold on and shed slowly. Spring flowers are not attractive or notable, and are very messy. "Helicopters", or seed pods, fall slowly all summer. Summer storms frequently bring down large limbs.

TL;DR - Norway Maples are ugly, messy, invasive and not at all a good tree.
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  #94  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 3:04 AM
lio45 lio45 is online now
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In my neck of the woods (Southeastern Quebec), both Norway Maple and Manitoba Maple are an invasive pest; I've been waging war on both on my properties. Still have some of both right now, but I'm working on getting rid of every last one eventually.
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  #95  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2019, 11:30 PM
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Norway Maples are a serious problem in Toronto's ravines.

Amazing what can happen when someone seeks to solve a problem without gaming out what may happen as a result.

Norways became popular here for their tolerance to road salt.

They've spread because of the dense shade they create and the fact they are shade and salt tolerant and not predated on; while their competitors (natives) have a much more challenging time of it.

A large scale program is needed to deal w/the issue, but that may be a long time coming as it won't be cheap.
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  #96  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2019, 6:01 PM
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I will not stand here and take this Norway Maple slander, they have gorgeous fall colors and I love their green flowers, bees seem to love them too.
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