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  #161  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by brickell View Post
Why does this debate come up every year?

Would be interesting to see how much an average person spends on travel (domestic and international) in US versus other countries. I'd wager Europe probably still comes out on top because of their obscene holiday culture, but that doesn't meant American's aren't traveling and experiencing new things. There's plenty of stuff to see and do right here in our own borders. Why should it "count more" for someone from Toronto to visit Miami Beach than a New Yorker?

And we'll never have to worry about there not being an Applebees nearby.
exactly. i was in hawaii last month and will be in new york next month which from houston is the equivalent to paris/mumbai and paris/moscow respectively but more exiting when you actually leave the country.
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  #162  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
Yes but if you are the richest country in the world, one would expect Americans do have the financially ability to travel internationally????
No, I wouldn't. I would expect that Americans near the Canadian border have the ability to travel internationally, if they want to go to Canada. There isn't much worth visiting in Mexico just over the border (within driving distance). Otherwise, and for the vast majority of Americans that do not live near one of these borders, traveling internationally requires buying rather expensive plane tickets for the whole family. The U.S. is a huge country with a lot of different places to visit, so people have plenty of alternatives at lower cost.

In Europe, I would expect many more people to travel internationally, both because of the distances involved and the lack of real borders.
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  #163  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 10:22 PM
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But since you put Canadian notions on American "paroxysms of self-congratulation" into the mix, I'll close with this considering my mega Euro-mutt pedigree... my maternal Irish immigrant great great grandparents didn't emigrate to Canada. My paternal Polish/Lithuanian and French/Spanish immigrant great grandparents didn't emigrate to Canada either. Hmmm, I wonder why not? Where'd they settle? Oh yeah, the US... because they came to work in the mines, mills, and factories of the just like millions of other poor immigrants fleeing to the golden "Land of Opportunity". Oh YEAH!! Rock on USA!
You do realise that Canada has accepted millions of immigrants from around the world including Europe, right? Obviously no one country could accept them all. But just because no one country couldn't accept every immigrant doesn't mean that other countries somehow offered something superior.
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  #164  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 10:27 PM
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Not to prolong the off-topic banter, but yeah, immigrants have always moved all over the place for economic opportunity. It's the whole mythology of the "land of opportunity" that gets tiresome, is all.

I've seen figures of between 40% to 75% of Italians returning home after spending time working in the U.S. The figures are apparently far lower for South America. There are probably various reasons for this, mostly to do with economics. It would be interesting to see some comparative studies.
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  #165  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
Yes but if you are the richest country in the world, one would expect Americans do have the financially ability to travel internationally????
Looking at big number averages, yes. But there is huge income disparity as I'm sure we all recognize. The US middle class is by and large unable financially to travel overseas for pleasure, to say nothing of lower classes.

I would not be surprised if European nations on average had larger (or about equal) percentages of their populations who truly have the financial means to travel overseas for pleasure than the US does, when it comes down to complete financial situation. The numbers get skewed though because more people from Europe and elsewhere travel to the US out of necessity in one way or another than those from the US that travel overseas out of necessity, among other reasons we've already talked about.

Another thing, the US govt has actively worked to attract international visitors for a long time now through an what seems to be an unending number of federally-sponsored programs. No university system as a whole in the world attracts more international students and researchers. No nation's corporations employ more foreigners overseas than American ones do... blah, blah, blah. Point is, connections are made by foreigners to the US (for a huge number of reasons far beyond the simplistic idea that "Europeans are just more interested in travel than Americans are") much more so than connections are made by Americans in European nations, purely because of the circumstances that exist today.
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  #166  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 10:31 PM
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Btw, there were also a lot of italian immigrants who came in France in the 1900's-1930's (and even later).
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  #167  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
I've seen figures of between 40% to 75% of Italians returning home after spending time working in the U.S. The figures are apparently far lower for South America. There are probably various reasons for this, mostly to do with economics. It would be interesting to see some comparative studies.
Italians who stayed in Italy or returned after working in the USA or Canada actually overall did well for themselves.

I know just in my family, the ones who toughed it out in Italy and did not immigrate, are actually very well off now. I would say even more well off than most of the family who immigrated here to North America. The ones who stayed tended to open their own business, and did very well for themselves.
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  #168  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
You do realise that Canada has accepted millions of immigrants from around the world including Europe, right? Obviously no one country could accept them all. But just because no one country couldn't accept every immigrant doesn't mean that other countries somehow offered something superior.
Of course. I hope you realize that I'm being over the top. Though there was unquestionably much more opportunity for immigrant laborers in the US at the turn of the century than there was in Canada.

I'm fully aware that many, many immigrants went to Canada... it's just that it was a totally different situation and the scale is just so vastly different. Example... in the 1920s, Canada's total population was only approx 8-9 million... by that time the US already had taken in 4 million Italian immigrants.
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  #169  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 10:41 PM
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As for the whole travel thing. It is just different in Europe. I just showed someone around from Sweden, and she talked about how Swedish youth go through cycles of what places they should backpack to when they finnish high-school or university. Sometimes all the kids are backpacking through the Middle East. Other times North America, etc.

You do not get that kind of attitude in the USA or even in parts of Canada.

---

Back to the original topic, I think what gets people upset is this idea that American's somehow live better than everyone else, when that is simply not true.
At the end of the day, all of us who live in the western world enjoy a very high quality of life, and we are very very lucky to be living where we do.
When we look more into quality of life, one could argue that the USA does not provide as good a quality of life as other western nations, regardless of how much American's are supposed to be richer than everyone else.
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  #170  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
Not to prolong the off-topic banter, but yeah, immigrants have always moved all over the place for economic opportunity. It's the whole mythology of the "land of opportunity" that gets tiresome, is all.

I've seen figures of between 40% to 75% of Italians returning home after spending time working in the U.S. The figures are apparently far lower for South America. There are probably various reasons for this, mostly to do with economics. It would be interesting to see some comparative studies.
I know, and I hope you realize I was being ridiculous. Canada is a gem and Canadians are a far more decent people than Americans. The whole "land of Opportunity" thing is saccharine and stupid. I do think the US did function in that way at one time, but it is overused and overused in a superiority sense.

From what I know of Brazil, Uruguay, and Argentina specifically, the Italians who emigrated there left with families intact... all going to become homesteaders per se, to work agricultural lands and become property owners. The ones who went to North America were initially just young men to go and make money... there was no permanence seen in it. But settlement happens and people stay.
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  #171  
Old Posted May 2, 2012, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
As for the whole travel thing. It is just different in Europe. I just showed someone around from Sweden, and she talked about Swedish youth go through cycles of what places they should backpack to when they Finnish high-school or university. Sometimes all the kids are backpacking through the Middle East. Other times North America, etc.

You do not get that kind of attitude in the USA or even in parts of Canada.
While definitely not the majority lots of teens in the US have that attitude. Maybe it was because of the movie Eurotrip being so popular when I was in high school but lots of people I went to high school went backpacking and traveling in Europe. I also want to state that most of the people from my high school also enjoyed going to Canada in the summer. When I was in high school I visited Vancouver, Toronto, Niagara Falls and Saint Catharine's. Also during spring break one of the main places that my friends would go to was Mexico. I get that many Americans do not travel outside the country but to act like none of us do is just being disingenuous. I especially think it is ironic that you are the one pushing this issue when you have already admitted you are a US citizen that lives in Canada.
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  #172  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Private Dick View Post
The United States does not have the colonial legacy of European nations, which to this day still influences motivations, notions, and choices about international travel.

Americans have never had to go overseas (or cross borders even) to attain freedom/education/get a job/make money/seek their fortunes/improve their lot in life/etc. like MANY from the European continent did when they came to America and still do.

The US is a massive fucking country with great cultural and geographic diversity and is bordered by two other massive fucking countries... and it is separated from other continents by thousands of miles of vast ocean.

It is simply not financially possible for the great majority of Americans to travel internationally.

And even with a vastly different history and geography that does not translate to international travel anywhere near as readily as it does in Europe...

117 MILLION Americans own current passports. Sure, that is a minority considering the nation has 300 MILLION people, but it still means that roughly 40 MILLION more Americans have passports for foreign travel than the largest nation in Europe has total people. Are all of those 117 MILLION passport holder going all the way across an ocean? No, a significant percentage of them are going to Canada and Mexico and other nearby nations -- just like how Europeans travel mainly among the bordering nations in Europe.

US government and corporations have done more to push a global agenda and a contemporary vision of the world than any other nation BY FAR. More American business travelers (meaning private, public, ngo, non-profit, etc.) have traveled to more foreign nations and have maintained a presence in those nations than any other country's business travelers BY FAR.

Also, the US has the 3rd most international departures, after Germany and the UK (which both are small in size and population compared to the US and also adjacent to many other nations). 3rd most because the US is such a large nation? Sure, but that still means a hell of a lot of Americans are traveling internationally, if it has the 3rd most departures to foreign destinations.

The US, in its young history relative to Europe, has always been a place where people come TO, not go FROM. The best and brightest from all over Europe came to the US in the last century to pursue their endeavors in science, business, technology, the arts, etc... remember that. It has a lot to do with the travel and settlement trends that have been present and that we still continue to see -- the whole "Land of Opportunity" thing was not and still is not a myth. Though America is maturing and we are seeing more and more Americans going abroad and living abroad for work at global enterprises -- further poking holes in this notion that Americans don't travel overseas (the US has .

Lastly, it seems to me that many of the wonderful international photo threads on the forum are quite often created by Americans. I think the notion that "Americans don't travel" is a vast generalization with roots in the questionable relevance of per capita numbers, ignorance, and jealousy.

Oh yeah, one more thing... USA, fuck yeah!

No country [in the western world] is more geographically challenged for international travel other than Australia yet we have 1/10th the population of the US and damn impressive record for international travel.

The reason why Americans dont travel as much overseas is because of the shithouse labour laws that only give 2 weeks as a base annual leave a year (yes I understand that it differs greatly with different factors, but the people we're talking about: young, not-as-worldly, perhaps even low socio-economic tax bracket type people will for the most part be 2 week annual leave people) - so it makes sense the majority will really only travel at home or maybe across the border into Canada, Mexico or the Carrib.

Australians get 4 weeks as a base - regardless of length of time at a job, where you live in the country (it's national workplace law) or what industry you're in, you'll always get 4 weeks annual (or pro-rata if you're permanent part time) if you're permanently employed on a full time basis which is the overwhelming majority of people.

4 weeks, if you're young - talking about the 20s and early 30s decade - for anyone it's more than possible to have a 2 week overseas trip and still have 2 weeks to use around Christmas/Summer or just use days randomly. S.E. Asia is reguarly on sale for around $600-700 return, the US can be as cheap as $1200 return and Europe can get really cheap around the $1600 return mark. A Random trip for someone starting on $35k-$40k in Australia to S.E. Asia and even the US is so much more achievable these days: and they definitely have the time to do it.

You get similar sale fares to Europe from the US ($600-700 return mark), same to Asia and Australia but only having 2 weeks annual leave puts people off travelling the long distances (not that travelling from the East coast of the US to Europe is "long" by any stretch of the imagination).

I dont understand why many people from outside the US see going to work in the US as a career highlight when in most cases you're going to subjected to the same shithouse conditions and not really get the time to enjoy living there: because you're going to be working most of the time on generally lower wages (offset by cheap as chips living costs in the US however).
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  #173  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by tayser View Post
The reason why Americans dont travel as much overseas is because of the shithouse labour laws that only give 2 weeks as a base annual leave a year
Spot-on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023
In Europe, I would expect many more people to travel internationally, both because of the distances involved and the lack of real borders.
Very few Europeans regard travel inside the EU as international travel.
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  #174  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by R@ptor View Post
Very few Europeans regard travel inside the EU as international travel.
That's not the point. Do travel statistics for citizens of various countries include it as international travel?

My whole point is that a German visiting Greece is like a New Yorker going to Florida.
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  #175  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 1:03 AM
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Very few Europeans regard travel inside the EU as international travel.
Probably not, but the statistics used to display how much Europeans travel internationally certainly do.
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  #176  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 1:09 AM
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That's not the point. Do travel statistics for citizens of various countries include it as international travel?

My whole point is that a German visiting Greece is like a New Yorker going to Florida.
Yup. The UN World Tourism Organization includes ALL international travel in their numbers.
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  #177  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 1:23 AM
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I think the size and diversity of attractions/settings is part of the reason why Americans don't travel much. Labor laws are part of it as well. But I think costs are a factor. Going to Europe, most of which is safe and modern, can be pretty expensive. So is Australia many other modern and safe places in other Asian countries. I understand that this is the case for other places as well, but most vacationing for Americans is seasonal and if you want to go to the beach, places in the US and nearby places like the Bahamas, Mexico, etc. are cheaper. And if you want to go skiing or whatever, the Colorado, Wyoming, and Utah are pretty affordable, relatively speaking, as well. So, it's not just a question of whether Americans have the money to travel. Some do, and some don't. But, you also have to look at what people's options are. If you want to immerse yourself in a really different culture, going farther away is more likely.
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  #178  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 1:44 AM
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I think Americans are more jacked around than Europeans, for as much as we don't travel, or don't appear to travel.

I think that helps and hurts, the sort of rapturous life adjustments we self inflict.
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  #179  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 5:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Private Dick View Post
The facts are that approaching a third of Italy's population came to the US between the 1880s and 1920s -- 4 million out of 14 million total. Arguing against the fact that Italian immigrants, in this case, came to the US for economic opportunity that simply did not exist in their homeland is to neglect history.
According to populstat.info there were about 38 million people living in Italy in 1920. This is actually a lower bound on the number of people who lived in Italy during the 1880-1920 period (note that life expectancies were only about 50 years back then). In other words, if we are to accept the 4 million estimate it makes more sense to conclude that 5-10% emigrated rather than 28%. 10% emigration over a 40 year period is not terribly dramatic from the perspective of Italy, although much of the migration did occur during a shorter time frame.
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  #180  
Old Posted May 3, 2012, 6:04 AM
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^ Sorry for the omission... the 14 million figure should be for Southern Italy where the vast majority of Italian immigrants to the US came from.
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