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  #61  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2006, 7:18 AM
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There is no way in hell the connector will ever be gotten rid of. Two things must happen first:

I-285 must be beefed up to handle the additional traffic, probably a C/D system similar to the 401 in Toronto.

And more importantly, the full commuter rail system must be built out and the city of Atlanta completely matured as the central employment hub of the region.
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  #62  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2006, 10:56 AM
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This forum is curiously skewed towards highway-haters anyhow. While some people see mass transit and have a wet dream, I think of it as just a train or bus. Sure trains are nice and move lots of people and can conceivably make me not need a car, but I don't think they should do away with highways.

Some people don't even realize that commuter rail will encourage some sprawl. For everyone who gets off the highway and takes the train, there is someone who will move into the suburbs to fill up that space on the highway. Generally, excluding the lowest rungs of the lower class, people will use whatever means is most efficient to get around. I think it's a good option that should be available for commuters anyhow, even if it wont solve the traffic problem.

Of course there are people who choose to bicycle commute or walk to work, but unfortunately, that has it's drawbacks. Weather, for one. I would hate to bike 10 miles or so on a snowy or just generally crappy day. I don't tend to move around nearly as much when its winter and if i had a car, that wouldn't be a problem. The same applies for an outdoor mall. While quaint, it is subject to weather. Virginia Highlands doesn't beat out suburban malls during a thunderstorm, I don't care what you like. Vendors also take note of that little fact when they decide where to put a store. Another drawback is simply feasibility. You can't really take a big family out for dinner without a car and you can't expect senior citizens to walk everywhere.

Of course, I love transit. I, just think that if we are trying to replace a car-dominated society, we need to make our city equally accessible by other means. The highway system is currently the best way to get commute to most of the cities around Atlanta. While MARTA serves a percentage of the population, most people in the area have no option when it comes to getting around and, believe it or not, they deserve to get to the things they like just as much as urbanites. I'd hate to see our city suffer the cutting of a major artery that literally millions depend on.

As for the high-speed line, I read the report. It isn't feasible with the current budget and the state of the rail lines. This isn't my opinion, this was stated in the study. High-speed rail would be quite nice though and I would imagine using it. Unfortunately, it is only efficient for trips between 100 and 500 miles and unfortunately, few destinations I ever plan to visit are in that range along the planned corridor (currently, Macon and Charlotte are the only cities near enough on the line). I think it would provide better connectivity to Charlotte, though, and it could conceivably be used to link Hartsfield-Jackson to a second airport. We'll see what happens with this. If it does come to fruition, it would be a very long time.

The Beltline seems cool, more power to it. I hope it turns the core around.

As for heavy rail expansions, I wonder what will really happen in the next ten years. Unlike commuter rail, heavy rail has a chance of creating urban pockets and connecting them. The north line and the northeast line shouldn't be the only considerations though. I think the south side of the city is being neglected. Not only are their highways horribly insufficient, they don't have any access to MARTA south of College Park. Unknown to some, the south side has been growing and rapidly in the last few years and represents a larger percentage of the metro region's growth each year. They need new heavy rail and commuter rail stations and, gasp, a new highway and/or highway expansions. Really, they have two and a half highways compared to the north side's half a dozen plus. It isn't as if people won't move into the city because traffic is bad. Atlanta is notorious for bad traffic and people still move in, we should at least keep our roads and transit up with demand. If people can't get somewhere, no developer or rail study will find an isolated area reasonable to expand into. Improvements start with improved infrastructure.

All the while, we transform our communities. You can create dense urban environments with or without highways. We can then improve the way we get around while working towards sustainability. Right now, I think burying the connector is an extravagance that can wait until we deal with the blaring problems.

Just to end my point, I would like to add that the way that this city grows exponentially and attracts people from far and wide, it seems that even with a dream of a transit system, traffic will continue to be very bothersome. If traffic ever lets up in one area, that area will simply attract more of the growth until traffic is bad again. Without restrictions on growth, we'll always be fighting this uphill battle as long as Atlanta is hot. One of the best solutions for the short term is to try to cut commute times and therefore reduce the amount of cars on the road at any time. To do this, I suggest we encourage separate job centers outside the perimeter. If someone in Duluth commutes to Alpharetta instead of Atlanta, then he spends many less hours in his car than if he tried to tackle getting downtown. If certain centers become dense enough, and we encourage that they do and aren't office park wastelands, then we can have transit in the suburbs much like we do in the perimeter. It shouldn't only be the north side either. There should be centers throughout the region. We are past the point where centering all the jobs for 5 million plus in one relatively small city is feasible. The sprawl area wont go away. We are a city on a scale of ten thousand square miles and growing. Best we make use of that space by fitting in better communities and denser developments so that millions coming in the next few decades don't only have sprawl houses far from work and a handful of core condos few jobs could afford to choose from. 470,000 live in Atlanta leaving 4,700,000 to the suburban wasteland. We need to change not only Atlanta but North Georgia.
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Last edited by dante2308; Dec 12, 2006 at 11:21 AM.
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  #63  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2006, 11:31 AM
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This is Great News!

MARTA train ridership up 10%; small rise for buses

By PAUL DONSKY
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 12/12/06
Ridership on MARTA's rail system has surged to its highest level in five years.

The transit system on Monday reported a 10 percent jump in daily ridership between July and September compared to the same period a year ago. The number of rail trips handled each day rose from 231,000 to 257,000 during that time.

Rail traffic hasn't been this high since 2001, when passenger volume began to drop amid tough economic times that followed the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

MARTA's bus ridership has risen only modestly, about 1.5 percent over last year. MARTA's combined bus and rail ridership — about 487,000 per day — is up 6 percent.

It's not clear why the rail numbers have spiked. Gas prices remain high, though they've fallen sharply after peaking in the months after Hurricane Katrina roared ashore in August 2005.

One possible explanation: new electronic fare gates MARTA has installed at all 38 rail stations. The 6-foot-tall gates do a much better job of counting passengers than the oft-broken and easy-to-hop turnstiles they replaced.

MARTA officials acknowledge the new head counts are more reliable. But they stress the old numbers should not be discounted, as they are based on a complex formula that included other measures, such as fare revenue.

Richard McCrillis, MARTA's general manager and CEO, said a renewed effort to keep the rail system clean, safe and on-time has helped attract new customers.

"It's a very positive trend," he said. "We're trying to give customers a better experience, a better transit ride."

Charles Rutledge, a 45-year-old computer systems administrator from Lilburn, said traffic — not high gas prices — prompted him to start taking the train last June to his new job in downtown Atlanta. It's the first time he's ever been a regular transit rider, and he's loving it.

"I spend 20 minutes in my car getting to the train station, and then I can read or sleep or whatever," he said Monday evening, waiting for his ride at the Five Points rail station.

"Even when there are service delays, it still beats the interstate. I have a co-worker who lives in Cobb [County] who would love to take MARTA, but it doesn't go there. So he has to drive — and I get to ride," Rutledge said with a big smile.

The ridership bump comes as MARTA is in the midst of a massive train car rebuilding project that has pulled a number of cars off the line. As a result, many rush-hour trains have been shortened, leading to severe crowding.

Osla Coleman, a junior at Mays High School in southwest Atlanta, said she noticed the trains getting more crowded this fall.

"It's packed at all times," she said. "The buses are more crowded, too."

Coleman, 17, has been regularly riding MARTA for about a year. She said as soon as she gets her own car MARTA is going to lose one rider — her.

"The service is very bad," she said. "It's late all the time."

MARTA's passenger counts began falling in early 2001, when the transit system last increased fares from $1.50 per ride to $1.75. The downward trend picked up steam in the year following the terrorist attacks, when an economic slowdown led to higher unemployment — and fewer people riding to work.

It also caused a big drop in sales tax collections, which MARTA depends on for much of its revenue. To balance its budget, transit system officials cut back on bus and rail service three times between 2002 and 2005, pushing even more riders away.

MARTA's ridership numbers remained flat, even after higher gas prices following Hurricane Katrina. That came in sharp contrast to transit systems around the country, which began to see an influx of new customers seeking a cheaper commute.

MARTA's finances have turned around in the past year, and some of the service has been restored. More bus and rail service will be restored in two weeks.

Lechandra Alexander is one of MARTA's new riders. She began taking MARTA two months ago when she got a new job downtown.

There are times when she could drive, she said, "but I prefer to take the train. I get here quicker, faster, there's less traffic."

Staff writer Ariel Hart contributed to this article.
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  #64  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2006, 4:02 PM
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Originally Posted by dante2308 View Post
This forum is curiously skewed towards highway-haters anyhow. While some people see mass transit and have a wet dream, I think of it as just a train or bus. Sure trains are nice and move lots of people and can conceivably make me not need a car, but I don't think they should do away with highways.

Some people don't even realize that commuter rail will encourage some sprawl. For everyone who gets off the highway and takes the train, there is someone who will move into the suburbs to fill up that space on the highway. Generally, excluding the lowest rungs of the lower class, people will use whatever means is most efficient to get around. I think it's a good option that should be available for commuters anyhow, even if it wont solve the traffic problem.

Of course there are people who choose to bicycle commute or walk to work, but unfortunately, that has it's drawbacks. Weather, for one. I would hate to bike 10 miles or so on a snowy or just generally crappy day. I don't tend to move around nearly as much when its winter and if i had a car, that wouldn't be a problem. The same applies for an outdoor mall. While quaint, it is subject to weather. Virginia Highlands doesn't beat out suburban malls during a thunderstorm, I don't care what you like. Vendors also take note of that little fact when they decide where to put a store. Another drawback is simply feasibility. You can't really take a big family out for dinner without a car and you can't expect senior citizens to walk everywhere.

Of course, I love transit. I, just think that if we are trying to replace a car-dominated society, we need to make our city equally accessible by other means. The highway system is currently the best way to get commute to most of the cities around Atlanta. While MARTA serves a percentage of the population, most people in the area have no option when it comes to getting around and, believe it or not, they deserve to get to the things they like just as much as urbanites. I'd hate to see our city suffer the cutting of a major artery that literally millions depend on.

As for the high-speed line, I read the report. It isn't feasible with the current budget and the state of the rail lines. This isn't my opinion, this was stated in the study. High-speed rail would be quite nice though and I would imagine using it. Unfortunately, it is only efficient for trips between 100 and 500 miles and unfortunately, few destinations I ever plan to visit are in that range along the planned corridor (currently, Macon and Charlotte are the only cities near enough on the line). I think it would provide better connectivity to Charlotte, though, and it could conceivably be used to link Hartsfield-Jackson to a second airport. We'll see what happens with this. If it does come to fruition, it would be a very long time.

The Beltline seems cool, more power to it. I hope it turns the core around.

As for heavy rail expansions, I wonder what will really happen in the next ten years. Unlike commuter rail, heavy rail has a chance of creating urban pockets and connecting them. The north line and the northeast line shouldn't be the only considerations though. I think the south side of the city is being neglected. Not only are their highways horribly insufficient, they don't have any access to MARTA south of College Park. Unknown to some, the south side has been growing and rapidly in the last few years and represents a larger percentage of the metro region's growth each year. They need new heavy rail and commuter rail stations and, gasp, a new highway and/or highway expansions. Really, they have two and a half highways compared to the north side's half a dozen plus. It isn't as if people won't move into the city because traffic is bad. Atlanta is notorious for bad traffic and people still move in, we should at least keep our roads and transit up with demand. If people can't get somewhere, no developer or rail study will find an isolated area reasonable to expand into. Improvements start with improved infrastructure.

All the while, we transform our communities. You can create dense urban environments with or without highways. We can then improve the way we get around while working towards sustainability. Right now, I think burying the connector is an extravagance that can wait until we deal with the blaring problems.

Just to end my point, I would like to add that the way that this city grows exponentially and attracts people from far and wide, it seems that even with a dream of a transit system, traffic will continue to be very bothersome. If traffic ever lets up in one area, that area will simply attract more of the growth until traffic is bad again. Without restrictions on growth, we'll always be fighting this uphill battle as long as Atlanta is hot. One of the best solutions for the short term is to try to cut commute times and therefore reduce the amount of cars on the road at any time. To do this, I suggest we encourage separate job centers outside the perimeter. If someone in Duluth commutes to Alpharetta instead of Atlanta, then he spends many less hours in his car than if he tried to tackle getting downtown. If certain centers become dense enough, and we encourage that they do and aren't office park wastelands, then we can have transit in the suburbs much like we do in the perimeter. It shouldn't only be the north side either. There should be centers throughout the region. We are past the point where centering all the jobs for 5 million plus in one relatively small city is feasible. The sprawl area wont go away. We are a city on a scale of ten thousand square miles and growing. Best we make use of that space by fitting in better communities and denser developments so that millions coming in the next few decades don't only have sprawl houses far from work and a handful of core condos few jobs could afford to choose from. 470,000 live in Atlanta leaving 4,700,000 to the suburban wasteland. We need to change not only Atlanta but North Georgia.
this post makes too much sense and is too reasonable. you'll never fit in here
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  #65  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2006, 8:28 AM
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Thanks I guess. It would be a shame to write such a long post and have absolutely no one respond...
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  #66  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2006, 2:46 PM
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dante, i read your post, thanks for the time spent. i wouldn't normally respond though, just because of the way you started it... not very civil. and i might add that much of your post seems to assume that only one form of transport can be chosen. burying the highway would be cool, but i don't think anybody really expected it to be done instead of other options... just having fun. and no one ever said we were trying to force people to commute by bike only. your points are well-understood and already very well-known, and you're welcome to make them as often as you want... maybe no need for the lecture format though
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  #67  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2006, 3:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dante2308 View Post
This forum is curiously skewed towards highway-haters anyhow. While some people see mass transit and have a wet dream, I think of it as just a train or bus. Sure trains are nice and move lots of people and can conceivably make me not need a car, but I don't think they should do away with highways.

Some people don't even realize that commuter rail will encourage some sprawl. For everyone who gets off the highway and takes the train, there is someone who will move into the suburbs to fill up that space on the highway. Generally, excluding the lowest rungs of the lower class, people will use whatever means is most efficient to get around. I think it's a good option that should be available for commuters anyhow, even if it wont solve the traffic problem.

Of course there are people who choose to bicycle commute or walk to work, but unfortunately, that has it's drawbacks. Weather, for one. I would hate to bike 10 miles or so on a snowy or just generally crappy day. I don't tend to move around nearly as much when its winter and if i had a car, that wouldn't be a problem. The same applies for an outdoor mall. While quaint, it is subject to weather. Virginia Highlands doesn't beat out suburban malls during a thunderstorm, I don't care what you like. Vendors also take note of that little fact when they decide where to put a store. Another drawback is simply feasibility. You can't really take a big family out for dinner without a car and you can't expect senior citizens to walk everywhere.

Of course, I love transit. I, just think that if we are trying to replace a car-dominated society, we need to make our city equally accessible by other means. The highway system is currently the best way to get commute to most of the cities around Atlanta. While MARTA serves a percentage of the population, most people in the area have no option when it comes to getting around and, believe it or not, they deserve to get to the things they like just as much as urbanites. I'd hate to see our city suffer the cutting of a major artery that literally millions depend on.

As for the high-speed line, I read the report. It isn't feasible with the current budget and the state of the rail lines. This isn't my opinion, this was stated in the study. High-speed rail would be quite nice though and I would imagine using it. Unfortunately, it is only efficient for trips between 100 and 500 miles and unfortunately, few destinations I ever plan to visit are in that range along the planned corridor (currently, Macon and Charlotte are the only cities near enough on the line). I think it would provide better connectivity to Charlotte, though, and it could conceivably be used to link Hartsfield-Jackson to a second airport. We'll see what happens with this. If it does come to fruition, it would be a very long time.

The Beltline seems cool, more power to it. I hope it turns the core around.

As for heavy rail expansions, I wonder what will really happen in the next ten years. Unlike commuter rail, heavy rail has a chance of creating urban pockets and connecting them. The north line and the northeast line shouldn't be the only considerations though. I think the south side of the city is being neglected. Not only are their highways horribly insufficient, they don't have any access to MARTA south of College Park. Unknown to some, the south side has been growing and rapidly in the last few years and represents a larger percentage of the metro region's growth each year. They need new heavy rail and commuter rail stations and, gasp, a new highway and/or highway expansions. Really, they have two and a half highways compared to the north side's half a dozen plus. It isn't as if people won't move into the city because traffic is bad. Atlanta is notorious for bad traffic and people still move in, we should at least keep our roads and transit up with demand. If people can't get somewhere, no developer or rail study will find an isolated area reasonable to expand into. Improvements start with improved infrastructure.

All the while, we transform our communities. You can create dense urban environments with or without highways. We can then improve the way we get around while working towards sustainability. Right now, I think burying the connector is an extravagance that can wait until we deal with the blaring problems.

Just to end my point, I would like to add that the way that this city grows exponentially and attracts people from far and wide, it seems that even with a dream of a transit system, traffic will continue to be very bothersome. If traffic ever lets up in one area, that area will simply attract more of the growth until traffic is bad again. Without restrictions on growth, we'll always be fighting this uphill battle as long as Atlanta is hot. One of the best solutions for the short term is to try to cut commute times and therefore reduce the amount of cars on the road at any time. To do this, I suggest we encourage separate job centers outside the perimeter. If someone in Duluth commutes to Alpharetta instead of Atlanta, then he spends many less hours in his car than if he tried to tackle getting downtown. If certain centers become dense enough, and we encourage that they do and aren't office park wastelands, then we can have transit in the suburbs much like we do in the perimeter. It shouldn't only be the north side either. There should be centers throughout the region. We are past the point where centering all the jobs for 5 million plus in one relatively small city is feasible. The sprawl area wont go away. We are a city on a scale of ten thousand square miles and growing. Best we make use of that space by fitting in better communities and denser developments so that millions coming in the next few decades don't only have sprawl houses far from work and a handful of core condos few jobs could afford to choose from. 470,000 live in Atlanta leaving 4,700,000 to the suburban wasteland. We need to change not only Atlanta but North Georgia.
I wanted to respond to your post in detail, but I haven’t had the time until now.

While it may seem that there are a lot of “highway haters” on this board, I think it’s mostly that many of us feel that the transportation focus has been too skewed towards roads to the detriment of transit. Both need to be implemented for sustainable growth. For roads in the Atlanta Metro, I personally think that the focus needs to be on interchange improvements over additional lanes – that’s where the bottlenecks are. As for surface streets, streetscaping and restricting left turns will assist traffic flow. The Peachtree Boulevard project should improve traffic quite a bit.

The main problem with the roads vs. transit battle is funding. Georgia is a donor State. Meaning that, it only receives about 70% of the transportation funding that it contributes to the Federal Government. In addition to that Metro Atlanta is a donor to the rest of the State. While this helps grease the wheels with rural legislators, it makes it hard to get the money to implement the projects where the most congestion is. A perfect example of this kind of donor “pork” is “Georgia’s High Tech Highway,” Highway 224 from Perry towards Hawkinsville. This is a very nice 4-lane divided State Highway to nowhere. It’s supposed to spur development and I’m sure that there are tax incentives for business to locate there, but it is a complete waste. The traffic on the road is minimal. For the money, I’d rather they spend it on a road improvement or transit project in Atlanta. At least it’d do somebody some good (besides the road contractor).

You are right in stating that commuter rail would not stop sprawl. It does provide those that live outside the central city an alternative route into town. This only really helps those that work in downtown or other places that connect with MARTA. However, the rail lines that commuter rail would run, pass through older town centers (where the stations would be) that have denser cores and that, in some cases, pre-date auto-centric development. Many of the towns in Clayton County have redevelopment plans they’d implement if the Lovejoy line gets started. This in turn brings more people living within walking distance of the rail stations, and this improves rider-ship. It’s a domino effect.

I don’t think that bicycles will ever be used for any sizeable portion of Atlanta’s Metro for commuting purposes. Yes, there are always the hard-core fans, but weather, steep grades, and lack of shower facilities at most employers keeps this number minimal.

As for MARTA, it needs to focus inside the perimeter. The recent interest in Gwinnett is encouraging, but that county is probably best served by commuter rail. MARTA needs to be involved with expanding options in town. Maybe a new station or two. It also needs to be involved with interconnecting with the Beltline and Streetcar projects.

High-Speed Rail is a boondoggle. As you correctly stated, it is not currently feasible. If we can get regular passenger rail operating successfully, then maybe we can look at it. Also, the additional time will allow technology to mature in this country. (It’s already mature elsewhere, but the USA doesn’t seem to be able to implement it.)

You give the Beltline a short comment, but I think it deserves more. First, thank goodness cooler heads have prevailed and the study committee is recommending rail for the LPA (Locally Preferred Alternative). Otis White, a writer for Governing Magazine, correctly noted that the Beltline is not just a transit system for getting folks from A to B; it’s an urban amenity. A light-rail or streetcar system will attract development and riders in a way that BRT – no matter how pretty – couldn’t. The parks and trails are also sorely needed in this town and I think that this development will transform the city. I also think that the Wayne Mason debacle will end up being a minor footnote in history when this whole thing is done.

Your state you’d like to see heavy rail improvements, but your recommendations are vague. I don’t think we’ll see much in the way of HRT expansion with MARTA. There may be some new stations – possibly to ease connectivity with the Beltline – but there aren’t many areas that HRT expansions are viable. There still is talk about further expansion up GA 400, but not much else in town. The North Fulton expansion makes sense, as there are no existing rail lines to put commuter rail on in that corridor. Also, if developments like the one just proposed in Roswell are to be built, they should be required to have a transit connection to handle the density.

As for your comments about MARTA South of College Park, those communities would be on commuter rail lines.

Yes, burying the connector is a wild idea and it will never happen. I do like the 5th Street Bridge though. I went to Tech when that part of Midtown was in poor shape. I think that with the Tech Square expansion the bridge needed some expansion anyway. What they have done is make a reasonably attractive area to traverse. I’ll bet that when the weather gets nice in the Spring, students will hang out and eat lunch on the lawn areas. I’d also like to see GDOT implement the expanded Mayor’s Park idea at the Peachtree Street connector crossing and the Capital Gateway park on the East side of the State Capital building. The Capital Gateway park is also supposed to connect to a linear park between MLK and Memorial running all the way to Oakland Cemetery – what a nice space that could be with redeveloped condos and retail along it.

Your final notes about development patterns reveal that you don’t really now that much about the Atlanta traffic situation. Someone commuting from Duluth to Alpharetta spends probably more time in the car than going downtown. Highways 141 and GA 20 are horrific, and forget about going down 85 and then back up GA 400. Atlanta is never going to be a centralized city, but the edge cities need to be clustered, so the densities will support some kind of transit system. We just aren’t going to be able to build enough roads for everyone.
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  #68  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2006, 1:21 AM
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dante, i read your post, thanks for the time spent. i wouldn't normally respond though, just because of the way you started it... not very civil. and i might add that much of your post seems to assume that only one form of transport can be chosen. burying the highway would be cool, but i don't think anybody really expected it to be done instead of other options... just having fun. and no one ever said we were trying to force people to commute by bike only. your points are well-understood and already very well-known, and you're welcome to make them as often as you want... maybe no need for the lecture format though
It really did come off a little offensive to start off. I apologize for that, but it was coming off the heals of Aubie's response to me and I have been debating with my super anti-car boyfriend for quite some time now... I guess I'm a little sensitive about this particular topic, but I wont bore ya'll. No offense intended.
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  #69  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2006, 2:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Newnan_Eric View Post
I wanted to respond to your post in detail, but I haven’t had the time until now.

While it may seem that there are a lot of “highway haters” on this board, I think it’s mostly that many of us feel that the transportation focus has been too skewed towards roads to the detriment of transit. Both need to be implemented for sustainable growth. For roads in the Atlanta Metro, I personally think that the focus needs to be on interchange improvements over additional lanes – that’s where the bottlenecks are. As for surface streets, streetscaping and restricting left turns will assist traffic flow. The Peachtree Boulevard project should improve traffic quite a bit.

The main problem with the roads vs. transit battle is funding. Georgia is a donor State. Meaning that, it only receives about 70% of the transportation funding that it contributes to the Federal Government. In addition to that Metro Atlanta is a donor to the rest of the State. While this helps grease the wheels with rural legislators, it makes it hard to get the money to implement the projects where the most congestion is. A perfect example of this kind of donor “pork” is “Georgia’s High Tech Highway,” Highway 224 from Perry towards Hawkinsville. This is a very nice 4-lane divided State Highway to nowhere. It’s supposed to spur development and I’m sure that there are tax incentives for business to locate there, but it is a complete waste. The traffic on the road is minimal. For the money, I’d rather they spend it on a road improvement or transit project in Atlanta. At least it’d do somebody some good (besides the road contractor).

You are right in stating that commuter rail would not stop sprawl. It does provide those that live outside the central city an alternative route into town. This only really helps those that work in downtown or other places that connect with MARTA. However, the rail lines that commuter rail would run, pass through older town centers (where the stations would be) that have denser cores and that, in some cases, pre-date auto-centric development. Many of the towns in Clayton County have redevelopment plans they’d implement if the Lovejoy line gets started. This in turn brings more people living within walking distance of the rail stations, and this improves rider-ship. It’s a domino effect.

I don’t think that bicycles will ever be used for any sizeable portion of Atlanta’s Metro for commuting purposes. Yes, there are always the hard-core fans, but weather, steep grades, and lack of shower facilities at most employers keeps this number minimal.

As for MARTA, it needs to focus inside the perimeter. The recent interest in Gwinnett is encouraging, but that county is probably best served by commuter rail. MARTA needs to be involved with expanding options in town. Maybe a new station or two. It also needs to be involved with interconnecting with the Beltline and Streetcar projects.

High-Speed Rail is a boondoggle. As you correctly stated, it is not currently feasible. If we can get regular passenger rail operating successfully, then maybe we can look at it. Also, the additional time will allow technology to mature in this country. (It’s already mature elsewhere, but the USA doesn’t seem to be able to implement it.)

You give the Beltline a short comment, but I think it deserves more. First, thank goodness cooler heads have prevailed and the study committee is recommending rail for the LPA (Locally Preferred Alternative). Otis White, a writer for Governing Magazine, correctly noted that the Beltline is not just a transit system for getting folks from A to B; it’s an urban amenity. A light-rail or streetcar system will attract development and riders in a way that BRT – no matter how pretty – couldn’t. The parks and trails are also sorely needed in this town and I think that this development will transform the city. I also think that the Wayne Mason debacle will end up being a minor footnote in history when this whole thing is done.

Your state you’d like to see heavy rail improvements, but your recommendations are vague. I don’t think we’ll see much in the way of HRT expansion with MARTA. There may be some new stations – possibly to ease connectivity with the Beltline – but there aren’t many areas that HRT expansions are viable. There still is talk about further expansion up GA 400, but not much else in town. The North Fulton expansion makes sense, as there are no existing rail lines to put commuter rail on in that corridor. Also, if developments like the one just proposed in Roswell are to be built, they should be required to have a transit connection to handle the density.

As for your comments about MARTA South of College Park, those communities would be on commuter rail lines.

Yes, burying the connector is a wild idea and it will never happen. I do like the 5th Street Bridge though. I went to Tech when that part of Midtown was in poor shape. I think that with the Tech Square expansion the bridge needed some expansion anyway. What they have done is make a reasonably attractive area to traverse. I’ll bet that when the weather gets nice in the Spring, students will hang out and eat lunch on the lawn areas. I’d also like to see GDOT implement the expanded Mayor’s Park idea at the Peachtree Street connector crossing and the Capital Gateway park on the East side of the State Capital building. The Capital Gateway park is also supposed to connect to a linear park between MLK and Memorial running all the way to Oakland Cemetery – what a nice space that could be with redeveloped condos and retail along it.

Your final notes about development patterns reveal that you don’t really now that much about the Atlanta traffic situation. Someone commuting from Duluth to Alpharetta spends probably more time in the car than going downtown. Highways 141 and GA 20 are horrific, and forget about going down 85 and then back up GA 400. Atlanta is never going to be a centralized city, but the edge cities need to be clustered, so the densities will support some kind of transit system. We just aren’t going to be able to build enough roads for everyone.
Thank you for responding. Time is limited so I wont respond to all of this at once. To start with heavy rail, I did not make any particular recommendations because there are more factors involved there than I would like to try to get in to. Politics come into play and it isn't as simple as putting the rail where it is needed or most feasible.

I am also well aware that traffic is bad between Duluth and Alpharetta. Some of that, I think, is due to the city planning assumption that everyone wants to go from Alpharetta and Duluth south towards the core and therefore roads connecting the edge cities are not priority.

I think the southern model of city, where you have one job center surrounded by tens of miles of radial residential communities and an arterial highway network is somewhat lacking. 285, while originally a road to bypass the city, is now a road that connects two separate job centers each with as much office space as downtown, yet 15 miles closer to the people who actually work there. That is why I am in favor of the radial and multi-loop system.

If there was a reasonable way for people laterally outside of 285, I think new centers would form that would take the pressure off Atlanta and the road networks in general. I think mass transit and dense developments should follow suit. I don't think we should not develop it inside the city, but I also don't think we should ignore the rest of the region. You really only need a reasonably walkable area with amenities and/or jobs and homes in a close enough area to make a station feasible (not that there aren't other hurdles). With that vision in mind, I don't think its impossible to throw that together. Funny thing is that for every improvement Atlanta makes, more people decide they like it here and move in. Maybe we can density yet if we keep growing so fast.

If we can't keep up with the people, we got to change something. We do need new roads though. We can't just give up and stop. The answer to Atlanta's traffic problem is going to be a lot of things at once working together and I think roads are part of that answer.
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Old Posted Dec 15, 2006, 12:58 AM
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eloquently written post, dante. where are you from originally?

i disagree with you on a couple of points. i really hope for atlanta follows a chicago model of development in the future, rather than the los angeles model you're basically speaking of. it's probably safe to say atlanta already has a much higher percentage of jobs outside the core than chicago does compared to its suburbs, and possibly even a higher raw number. to be sure, i'm definitely not arguing against improving and creating better satellite cities, i'm just suggesting the metro focus everything on the center.

i'm sure you're also aware of the reasons the forum is so anti-freeway; they've done so much damage to the fabric of so many cities already! the connector is a spectacle; sure it's an amazing piece of engineering in the same way a jet engine is, but who the hell wants to observe a jet engine in operation constantly? i would absolutely love to see the connector buried or downgraded to a larger boulevard in the future, and 285 beefed up to handle the diversion. is it gonna happen anytime soon? hell no... but we can all dream.

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Old Posted Dec 15, 2006, 1:57 AM
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Old Posted Dec 15, 2006, 6:54 AM
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eloquently written post, dante. where are you from originally?

i disagree with you on a couple of points. i really hope for atlanta follows a chicago model of development in the future, rather than the los angeles model you're basically speaking of. it's probably safe to say atlanta already has a much higher percentage of jobs outside the core than chicago does compared to its suburbs, and possibly even a higher raw number. to be sure, i'm definitely not arguing against improving and creating better satellite cities, i'm just suggesting the metro focus everything on the center.

i'm sure you're also aware of the reasons the forum is so anti-freeway; they've done so much damage to the fabric of so many cities already! the connector is a spectacle; sure it's an amazing piece of engineering in the same way a jet engine is, but who the hell wants to observe a jet engine in operation constantly? i would absolutely love to see the connector buried or downgraded to a larger boulevard in the future, and 285 beefed up to handle the diversion. is it gonna happen anytime soon? hell no... but we can all dream.

np: the flashbulb - lucid bass iii
Thank you cabasse. I'm from Jamaica and I have been trying to keep up a Jamaica thread in this forum, but unfortunately it seems that there is not enough interest despite the number of projects going up in my homeland.

Anyhow, I understand the anti-highway sentiment. I really think that we should not throw out the baby with the bathwater though. Without the multitude highways, there really wouldn't be any way that Atlanta would have gotten to be such a regional powerhouse. Without the highways, Atlanta wouldn't even have been considered for all these wonderful projects we see filling the forums. The highways were cut through communities and were somewhat politically and racially motivated, I know, but that doesn't necessarily mean that highways themselves are all bad.

I think people tend to reach for the past nostalgically when they see the problems that new technologies cause instead of trying to integrate them better into our society. We have highways and we have cars and they are on some levels better than the trains and foot travel that came before them. We should find a way to reach our goals without sacrificing too much of something else.

For example, I think cars should be run electrically and charged by an alternative energy power grid. That way, we don't have to deal with the pollution they cause and our crippling oil dependence. The technology is there and developing and wouldn't incur any real loss.

I think that we should continue to favor air travel over high speed rail. I'm an aerospace major so I may be biased, but aircraft are really a form of mass transit when it comes down to it. A train will most likely run on fossil fuels and slow commute times to any destination outside of 500 miles even if the infrastructure were put in place. Aircraft run on kerosene and will swiften our economy by connecting the broad scale of our nation on a scale of a few hours. There is a cost incurred by the airports and the burning of kerosene, but that is mitigated by the improving efficiency of each new generation of aircraft and the economic benefit the create. More economy means more tax revenue to pay for the services you and I like. Of course, for trips under 500 miles, where feasible, alternatives like HSR should be available.

In no way am I specifically anti-transit or pro-highway. I'm pro Atlanta and pro human society. I would like the best for everyone if possible and if that means a mix of several options, then we should explore everything. Even the highways and malls have their purposes.

I also think that the center of the city should be focused on, but definitely not the only place we focus on. Most people do not live in the center so developments should not be reserved for Atlanta proper. As traffic becomes more and more horrid, suburbanites will be less likely to make the trip into the city and will demand, and receive, amenities in their bedroom communities. Instead of fighting it, we should try to make new development as positive as possible for the communities they impact. We should encourage an Atlanta Region that is not a city but a systems of cities as it is already becoming. That support means new transit alternatives connecting the nodes including transit, roads, and good zoning regulations.
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Old Posted Dec 15, 2006, 3:16 PM
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Looks great. The first photo is exactly how I imagine the Beltline looking (in my more optimistic moments )
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Old Posted Dec 15, 2006, 3:30 PM
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I also think that the center of the city should be focused on, but definitely not the only place we focus on. Most people do not live in the center so developments should not be reserved for Atlanta proper. As traffic becomes more and more horrid, suburbanites will be less likely to make the trip into the city and will demand, and receive, amenities in their bedroom communities. Instead of fighting it, we should try to make new development as positive as possible for the communities they impact. We should encourage an Atlanta Region that is not a city but a systems of cities as it is already becoming. That support means new transit alternatives connecting the nodes including transit, roads, and good zoning regulations.
Well said, and an excellent post. Any modern American city is dependent upon all modes of transport. And I particularly agree with your last paragraph, which takes into account the other 90% of metro Atlantans. A market economy will supply what consumers demand. We should embrace the opportunities that growth affords, and strive to make our Atlanta as good as it can be.
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Old Posted Dec 15, 2006, 3:35 PM
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Thank you cabasse. I'm from Jamaica and I have been trying to keep up a Jamaica thread in this forum, but unfortunately it seems that there is not enough interest despite the number of projects going up in my homeland.

Anyhow, I understand the anti-highway sentiment. I really think that we should not throw out the baby with the bathwater though. Without the multitude highways, there really wouldn't be any way that Atlanta would have gotten to be such a regional powerhouse. Without the highways, Atlanta wouldn't even have been considered for all these wonderful projects we see filling the forums. The highways were cut through communities and were somewhat politically and racially motivated, I know, but that doesn't necessarily mean that highways themselves area all bad.

I think people tend to reach for the past nostalgically when they see the problems that new technologies cause instead of trying to integrate them better into our society. We have highways and we have cars and they are on some levels better than the trains and foot travel that came before them. We should find a way to reach our goals without sacrificing too much of something else.

For example, I think cars should be run electrically and charged by an alternative energy power grid. That way, we don't have to deal with the pollution they cause and our crippling oil dependence. The technology is there and developing and wouldn't incur any real loss.

I think that we should continue to favor air travel over high speed rail. I'm an aerospace major so I may be biased, but aircraft are really a form of mass transit when it comes down to it. A train will most likely run on fossil fuels and slow commute times to any destination outside of 500 miles even if the infrastructure were put in place. Aircraft run on kerosene and will swiften our economy by connecting the broad scale of our nation on a scale of a few hours. There is a cost incurred by the airports and the burning of kerosene, but that is mitigated by the improving efficiency of each new generation of aircraft and the economic benefit the create. More economy means more tax revenue to pay for the services you and I like. Of course, for trips under 500 miles, where feasible, there should be alternatives like HSR should be available.

In no way am I specifically anti-transit or pro-highway. I'm pro Atlanta and pro human society. I would like the best for everyone if possible and if that means a mix of several options, then we should explore everything. Even the highways and malls have their purposes.

I also think that the center of the city should be focused on, but definitely not the only place we focus on. Most people do not live in the center so developments should not be reserved for Atlanta proper. As traffic becomes more and more horrid, suburbanites will be less likely to make the trip into the city and will demand, and receive, amenities in their bedroom communities. Instead of fighting it, we should try to make new development as positive as possible for the communities they impact. We should encourage an Atlanta Region that is not a city but a systems of cities as it is already becoming. That support means new transit alternatives connecting the nodes including transit, roads, and good zoning regulations.
I agree with many of your points (actually, I don't--I just think I like the way you argue them ), though I don't know that the desire to centralize is so much nostalgic as it seems (note italics) to be "proven" (that is, we see lots of evidence of great places that are centralized--we don't see as much evidence of places that are decentralized but still considered great). In the case of great places that are, arguably, decentralized (e.g., Paris, London, Buenos Aires, Barcelona, even New York) they are so incredibly bound together with mass transit, that they can pull it off. I don't know that a city like Atlanta could be very interesting with a number of sattelite cities that are connected mostly by freeways. It would seem to engender a lot of second-rate institutions rather than a handful of really good ones (I'm thinking museums, symphonies, public libraries, even shopping districts, etc.).
You say that not everyone lives in Atlanta proper so development shouldn't concentrate there (and I understand your point, of course) but it's a bit chicken-and-egg -- if there is not a critical mass of infrastructure, why shouldn't people keep living farther and farther away? You seem to be saying "embrace sprawl" and that's probably a very pragmatic stance if the choice is unbridled sprawl vs. planned sprawl (and it may well be--that train may have left the station, no pun intended ). But I think we have an opportunity to create a more Chicago-like dynamic with full-service surburbia but a kick-ass central area.
Finally, I won't argue with a aerospace engineer, but I thought planes were a LOT more guilty of producing green-house gases than trains.
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  #76  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2006, 4:15 PM
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A market economy will supply what consumers demand. We should embrace the opportunities that growth affords, and strive to make our Atlanta as good as it can be.
Come on, transportation is a incredibly distorted market and you know it. Make EVERYTHING toll and then you can talk about what the market demands. As it is, we have a heavily subsidized and government regulated transportation system that favors roads over everything else. If you believe otherwise, you're viewing through a distorted lense.

Come on, where are the "libertarians" demanding a $15 toll to drive from Lawrenceville to downtown? The core guys at the libertarian think tanks are all for it, but the guy on the street who goes on and on about roads being a free market has no clue as to what roads really cost and how much of a subsidy they get, especially in using the power of government to take away land for the "common good" of drivers. Remember, GDOT has the power to take your land and pay you what they consider to be the value. MARTA has no such authority and ends up paying many times more for a right of way than what GDOT would pay. Yet another example of government distortion of the market.

So please... don't talk about what the market does and does not demand. In this environment, there is no way for you or anyone to truly know because the system has been wired for only one outcome. Sell off the interstate system and all other limited access highways to investors (the government can use the precedes to pay off the road bonds and general obligation bonds that have been used to build the roads) who will start charging tolls for what the roads cost. Don't allow new roads or mass transit to take away people's land but rather force them to pay whatever the owner of the land wants, even if that's $10,000,000,000 per sq foot. If they won't sell, pay the huge amount of money required to adjust the route around each and ever part of the project that you can't acquire the land for. Sell off the mass transit systems to private investors. In that environment, then you can start to talk about what the market wants (even that will be distorted because of past government taking of private property more for roads than mass transit will result in advantages for the roads that can not be captured in the pricing of the road when sold since it was never paid for at its true cost in the first place... but we can ignore that in the long term).

If there is any type of market in the US that is more distorted by government interference and control than transportation, I'd like to know what it is. As it is, you shouldn't even use the term "market" to describe how our transportation networks are built and funded. If you like how the status quo fits your particular lifestyle, that's fine but don't try to pass off the way things are as being any kind of free market system in action.
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  #77  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2006, 9:12 PM
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^zing!
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Old Posted Dec 15, 2006, 10:07 PM
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Come on, transportation is a incredibly distorted market and you know it... So please... don't talk about what the market does and does not demand... If there is any type of market in the US that is more distorted by government interference and control than transportation, I'd like to know what it is... As it is, you shouldn't even use the term "market" to describe how our transportation networks are built and funded.
I don't disagree with a single point you made, and think you got your panties in a wad over an argument that was not made. So put your gun back in the holster and have a beer -- that's where I'm headed right now!


The point of my earlier remarks about market demand was not about demand for any particular mode of transportation, but for the particular places where people will choose to live and work. That is where the market currently rations by scarcity (and thus price).

While some might prefer to decide on modes of transport first and then dictate peoples' choices over where they might live and work, the present reality is the exact opposite. Transportation is a secondary consideration about how to best accomodate the hard realities of where populations have chosen to live and work, and where they appear headed in the near term. Roads are not the only solution (let us hope!), but they will always remain a very important tool. And in Atlanta -- where 90% of the population lives well outside the central core -- roads will remain the dominant solution for a long time. Some pre-built incentives (rails and stations) might help to influence long-term choices, but too much of those would be prohibitively expensive before actual demand existed to fund operations.

And you mentioned toll roads... As we are just beginning to see, roads will become even more expensive to build as land becomes more scarce. Tolls are thus becoming a more important funding tool, and will add to the market equation affecting peoples choices of where they will live and work -- and how they will travel. But I think it will be some time before tolls become a significant factor in many peoples' decisions over where to live and work, as other factors seem to hold very stong sway in their choices.
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  #79  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2006, 10:43 PM
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And in Atlanta -- where 90% of the population lives well outside the central core -- roads will remain the dominant solution for a long time.
Unfortunately, I fear this is true, at least for the next 25-30 years.

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Old Posted Dec 16, 2006, 5:01 PM
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Thank God for eminent domain and governments who think roads are a good way to be civilized...
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