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  #21  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2017, 2:24 PM
montydawg montydawg is offline
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Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17 View Post
I would think anything other than Manhanttan would underwhelm any New Yorker (not just New Jersey).
Brooklyn and parts of Queens are pretty cool, if not cooler (read: hipster city) than Manhattan, and I also like visiting Harlem. Hoboken is more residential and I don't think has the infrastructure besides a rail terminal to support them. I'm not sure the NYC area is the 'business friendly' environment they are looking for. My state and local income taxes are 10% in NYC, versus 6% in Georgia and 0% in Seattle.
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  #22  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2017, 5:52 PM
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I just want to see the increased density/walkability and expanded transit that comes to Atlanta if we get HQ2.
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  #23  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2017, 6:33 PM
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https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/...mazon-hq2.html

"AEG— a business consultancy specializing in a variety of industries — gave each city an average score, and New York City came in first. Chicago placed second ahead of Los Angeles, Boston, Atlanta, Washington and Philadelphia."
...

"It's worth noting that there are many factors not included in the AEG index that can come into play such as 'the nature and size of potential incentive packages,' AEG notes."

So, looks like Atlanta only trails metro areas that will not offer large incentive packages...
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  #24  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2017, 7:09 PM
Atlanta3000 Atlanta3000 is offline
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https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/...mazon-hq2.html

"AEG— a business consultancy specializing in a variety of industries — gave each city an average score, and New York City came in first. Chicago placed second ahead of Los Angeles, Boston, Atlanta, Washington and Philadelphia."
...

"It's worth noting that there are many factors not included in the AEG index that can come into play such as 'the nature and size of potential incentive packages,' AEG notes."

So, looks like Atlanta only trails metro areas that will not offer large incentive packages...
The ABC article says Atlanta is ranked #3 behind New York and Chicago, but if you go to the source (http://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com...-Wishlist.aspx), it shows Atlanta is ranked #5. Which is it?


Last edited by Atlanta3000; Oct 3, 2017 at 7:29 PM.
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  #25  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2017, 7:59 PM
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The ABC article says Atlanta is ranked #3 behind New York and Chicago, but if you go to the source (http://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com...-Wishlist.aspx), it shows Atlanta is ranked #5. Which is it?

The headline is misleading. In the article, it states that Atlanta is 5th, which doesn't change my original point that the four cities ahead of us (NYC, Chicago, LA, Boston) are not the types of places typically that offer businesses huge incentives.
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  #26  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2017, 8:19 PM
Atlanta3000 Atlanta3000 is offline
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The headline is misleading. In the article, it states that Atlanta is 5th, which doesn't change my original point that the four cities ahead of us (NYC, Chicago, LA, Boston) are not the types of places typically that offer businesses huge incentives.
All of these cities will be grabbing their ankles with incentives to lure Amazon with the exception being Boston. What is most interesting about this analyst report, they rate Atlanta above all the other Sunbelt cities/tech magnets.
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  #27  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2017, 9:42 PM
skyscraperpage17 skyscraperpage17 is offline
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So to critiquing that list:

*You can automatically rule out Los Angeles. There's virtually zero chance of HQ2 being on the west coast.

*I think it's safe to rule out NYC as well. It has the same problems as Seattle x1000.

*Boston has some things going against, including their stinginess when it comes to incentives as well as their COL (like NYC and Seattle).

Thus, the only real competition for Atlanta IMO would be Chicago. That being said, even Chicago is increasingly facing issues with higher COL, not to mention the state's fiscal situation.
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  #28  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2017, 9:50 PM
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I wonder why Dallas isn't on that list?
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  #29  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2017, 10:15 PM
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I wonder why Dallas isn't on that list?
Dallas is behind DC and Philadelphia (which are both behind Atlanta).
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  #30  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2017, 10:10 AM
Atlanta3000 Atlanta3000 is offline
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Haha, I live in Manhattan and young people don't want to work in New Jersey, let alone visit New Jersey. Jersey city has the best chance of anything in the state of landing this. It has subway lines that go straight into Manhattan . One advantage is salaries are a tad lower here in tech because there is a glut of people who want to live in NYC and are willing to scrape by. I find the IT salaries here aren't great.
Montydawg, I believe you mentioned you work in high-tech. When I was working at PeopleSoft in the early 2000's living in Arlington, VA, my base salary was the same as my peers in Atlanta. Albeit my cost of living was +/-40% more. If I am not mistaken, every software company I worked for doesn't base salaries on location, but title/position.

I am curious if you see this with the software companies in NYC?
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  #31  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2017, 10:34 AM
Atlanta3000 Atlanta3000 is offline
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Mark aAnother City/State off the List - Denver, CO

Denver is not Silicon Valley in terms of workforce quality or quantity. So stating this is a big mistake on their part. Amazon is a publicly traded company with thin margins, and any city/state pursuing them needs to realize their top criterion when is they state "business friendliness" is INCENTIVES.

Metro Denver will push lifestyle, workforce over incentives in Amazon HQ2 bid
https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/n...orce-over.html
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  #32  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2017, 11:05 AM
montydawg montydawg is offline
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Montydawg, I believe you mentioned you work in high-tech. When I was working at PeopleSoft in the early 2000's living in Arlington, VA, my base salary was the same as my peers in Atlanta. Albeit my cost of living was +/-40% more. If I am not mistaken, every software company I worked for doesn't base salaries on location, but title/position.

I am curious if you see this with the software companies in NYC?
Salaries seem to be based more on supply/demand. If they cannot find people to fill an open position they increase salaries/rates. For example, I can get paid around 40k more if I wanted to move to Long Island. Very suburban with a high cost of living. Young people don't want to move there. New Jersey gets paid more than New York, but more like 20k more because of lower cost of living and more people are willing to move there. Salaries for my field are lower in New York than Atlanta but office rents are through the roof so tech firms are not flocking here any time soon.
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  #33  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2017, 11:28 AM
skyscraperpage17 skyscraperpage17 is offline
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Mark aAnother City/State off the List - Denver, CO

Denver is not Silicon Valley in terms of workforce quality or quantity. So stating this is a big mistake on their part. Amazon is a publicly traded company with thin margins, and any city/state pursuing them needs to realize their top criterion when is they state "business friendliness" is INCENTIVES.

Metro Denver will push lifestyle, workforce over incentives in Amazon HQ2 bid
https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/n...orce-over.html
Denver may technically check all of the boxes for Amazon, but the city has quite a few flaws going against it. Besides not being as strong of a draw for tech talent, it's located in an odd time zone, it's dealing with a shortage of housing, land constraints, etc.

It certainly wouldn't be in my top 5 list of potential cities to land HQ2 (Atlanta, Dallas, Chicago, Philadelphia and possibly Nashville / Detroit).
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  #34  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2017, 11:32 AM
skyscraperpage17 skyscraperpage17 is offline
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Originally Posted by montydawg View Post
Salaries seem to be based more on supply/demand. If they cannot find people to fill an open position they increase salaries/rates. For example, I can get paid around 40k more if I wanted to move to Long Island. Very suburban with a high cost of living. Young people don't want to move there. New Jersey gets paid more than New York, but more like 20k more because of lower cost of living and more people are willing to move there. Salaries for my field are lower in New York than Atlanta but office rents are through the roof so tech firms are not flocking here any time soon.
What you say about salaries in your field is interesting, because I find the opposite is usually the case in most other fields. I hear more complaints about the low salaries in southern states compared to their northern and coastal counterparts.

I assume you're in a very specialized field?
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  #35  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2017, 11:52 AM
Atlanta3000 Atlanta3000 is offline
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Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17 View Post
Denver may technically check all of the boxes for Amazon, but the city has quite a few flaws going against it. Besides not being as strong of a draw for tech talent, it's located in an odd time zone, it's dealing with a shortage of housing, land constraints, etc.

It certainly wouldn't be in my top 5 list of potential cities to land HQ2 (Atlanta, Dallas, Chicago, Philadelphia and possibly Nashville / Detroit).
Nashville never - it's population is to small and lacks mass transit - Detroit lacks talent and the city's fiscal situation.

I think the dark horse is Richmond, VA. Also, Amazon also asked Richmond to submit a bid. Richmond missing the mark on several criteria, but given it's distance from DC (1 hour travel) and low cost to operate it certainly is a viable option. This is the one to watch.

http://wtvr.com/2017/09/27/richmond-...dquarters-bid/

Video Link
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  #36  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2017, 12:24 PM
skyscraperpage17 skyscraperpage17 is offline
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[CENTER]Nashville never - it's population is to small and lacks mass transit - Detroit lacks talent and the city's fiscal situation.
Nashville does have the "IT" factor going for it. If Bezos is looking for an up and coming place that millennials love and he can mold into his own, Nashville would fit that bill.

Besides, you did mention how critical incentives will be. Besides Georgia, Tennessee is another state that's also very generous with their incentive packages. That's how they managed to land Nissan, Bridgestone, Volkswagen, etc.

As far as Detroit, other than transit, it checks all of the boxes. What you say may be true as far as talent in the city proper, but the metro area is home to one of the largest concentration of STEM graduates in the country thanks to the Auto Industry. Not to mention, University of Michigan (who has confirmed they're backing Detroit's bid) is one of Amazon's largest feeder schools for talent. It also has a ton of cheap real estate & vacant land, unlike most major cities, for Amazon to grow and expand when it's ready. It also has one other factor that every other candidate (besides Toronto) lacks, and that's easy access to Canadian / international talent. Also, it's possible that Amazon will want to collaborate with the Big 3 to become well verse in vehicle technology for its continued integration of Alexa into cars. Concerning the fiscal situation, Detroit proper is on much better footing after shedding its debt in bankruptcy. Sure, it's not flush with cash, but it at least has a balanced budget and is providing basic services again. Besides, the fiscal situation in Chicago and Philadelphia (two of the top candidates) isn't all that great either.

And frankly, I'm not totally convinced transit will be a deal breaker. For one, Seattle had fairly abysmal transit when Amazon was established and started growing. Second, the main reason Seattle and most other cities have severe congestion / traffic is because of their poor road infrastructure. Detroit, meanwhile, overbuilt its road infrastructure during the 40s - 70s and doesn't really have gridlock traffic like most places (Detroit was ranked at the bottom amongst major cities with 3+ million people in terms of traffic congestion). So it negates the need for transit to an extent (although it certainly doesn't excuse the lack of it).

But this is all just my opinion. We're all guessing at this point. Only Bezos knows what he's going to do.

Last edited by skyscraperpage17; Oct 6, 2017 at 12:37 PM.
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  #37  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2017, 12:46 PM
Atlanta3000 Atlanta3000 is offline
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Nashville does have the "IT" factor going for it. If Bezos is looking for an up and coming place that millennials love and he can mold into his own, Nashville would fit that bill.

Besides, you did mention how critical incentives will be. Besides Georgia, Tennessee is another state that's also very generous with their incentive packages. That's how they managed to land Nissan, Bridgestone, Volkswagen, etc.

As far as Detroit, other than transit, it checks all of the boxes. What you say may be true as far as talent in the city proper, but the metro area is home to one of the largest concentration of STEM graduates in the country thanks to the Auto Industry. Not to mention, University of Michigan (who has confirmed they're backing Detroit's bid) is one of Amazon's largest feeder schools for talent. It also has a ton of cheap real estate & vacant land, unlike most major cities, for Amazon to grow and expand when it's ready. It also has one other factor that every other candidate (besides Toronto) lacks, and that's easy access to Canadian / international talent. Also, it's possible that Amazon will want to collaborate with the Big 3 to become well verse in vehicle technology for its continued integration of Alexa into cars. Concerning the fiscal situation, Detroit proper is on much better footing after shedding its debt in bankruptcy. Sure, it's not flush with cash, but it at least has a balanced budget and is providing basic services again. Besides, the fiscal situation in Chicago and Philadelphia (two of the top candidates) isn't all that great either.

And frankly, I'm not totally convinced transit will be a deal breaker. For one, Seattle had fairly abysmal transit when Amazon was established and started growing. Second, the main reason Seattle and most other cities have severe congestion / traffic is because of their poor road infrastructure. Detroit, meanwhile, overbuilt its road infrastructure during the 40s - 70s and doesn't really have gridlock traffic like most places (Detroit was ranked at the bottom amongst major cities with 3+ million people in terms of traffic congestion). So it negates the need for transit to an extent (although it certainly doesn't excuse the lack of it).

But this is all just my opinion. We're all guessing at this point. Only Bezos knows what he's going to do.
If you look at most news sites, analyst coverage...etc, Detroit is not even in the Top 10. Including this one from Anderson Economic Group (Detroit ranked 32 out of 35).

http://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com...-Wishlist.aspx

Although I always root for the underdog, I think in this case the prize should go to the city that has the talent, infrastructure and economic incentives today. Not their potential in the future.
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  #38  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2017, 1:45 PM
montydawg montydawg is offline
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Originally Posted by skyscraperpage17 View Post
What you say about salaries in your field is interesting, because I find the opposite is usually the case in most other fields. I hear more complaints about the low salaries in southern states compared to their northern and coastal counterparts.

I assume you're in a very specialized field?
Yes, I have a specialized skill. About 10 years ago bus drivers made around 55K in New York city but a lot less in Atlanta, however, judge clerks made around 50k in Atlanta, but around 30k in NYC. (Those were my observations based on only a few data points 10 years ago) It all depends on the field and specialty.
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  #39  
Old Posted Oct 6, 2017, 3:46 PM
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If you look at most news sites, analyst coverage...etc, Detroit is not even in the Top 10. Including this one from Anderson Economic Group (Detroit ranked 32 out of 35).

http://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com...-Wishlist.aspx

Although I always root for the underdog, I think in this case the prize should go to the city that has the talent, infrastructure and economic incentives today. Not their potential in the future.
Everyone has their own way of weighing cities, flaws and all. After all, didn't the NY Times eliminate Atlanta from its list off the bat for (at least what I thought was) a silly reason? I just wouldn't completely dismiss dark horses that also check most of the boxes (or have an unique appeal about them) either.

I thought the below analysis was the most thorough and realistic of them all (although I don't agree with it 100%).

https://medium.com/migration-issues/...n-effda4edc00f
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  #40  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2017, 3:50 PM
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Amazon Growth News

Amazon picks Atlanta for 'regional tech hub'

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/...-tech-hub.html

To most this may be encouraging news, but the conservative side of me says that Amazon is doing this in part as a logistical tactic but also as a consolation prize to Atlanta for already having strong intentions to locate their 2nd headquarters elsewhere.

Would Amazon locate their second headquarters in a town where they already have an ever-growing presence? Also, would they rather be the “Big fish in a little pond” in a smaller city where they could "rule the roost" or in a larger city where they have to compete with other corporate giants like Delta, UPS, Home Depot, Coca-Cola, etc.?

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