HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Pacific West > Portland > Parks, Metro, Urban Design & Heritage Issues


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 5:15 PM
Urbanpdx Urbanpdx is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 561
Welcome to the Antiplanner

You guys might like this one...

http://www.ti.org/antiplanner/

"They say someone starts a new blog every second, so let me present one of the first 80,000 blogs of 2007. The Antiplanner is the public face of my new mission: to promote the repeal of all federal and state planning laws and the closure of all state and local planning offices.

Seventeen years ago, most Americans celebrated the fall of the Soviet empire as a victory of free markets over central planning. Yet most American cities and counties have planning departments and Congress requires that most federal agencies prepare costly, time-consuming, and ultimately worthless plans.

It is time for someone to say that the planning emperor has no clothes. The Antiplanner will show why government planning fails, document planning disasters, comment on planning news, and present new research and information related to transportation, urban areas, and public lands.

Of course, everybody plans. We plan our work day, our vacations, our education and careers. But these plans tend to be short term, flexible, and affect mainly ourselves and our families. To distinguish this from the planning I criticize, I prefer to call such activities organizing: we organize our time and resources as efficiently as we can based on what we know. If we learn something new, we change our organization.

What I object to is what I will sometimes call government planning, which includes three things:

Comprehensive planning that attempts to account for both quantifiable (though not necessarily comparable) and non-quantifiable things;
Long-term planning that attempts to look ahead for many years or decades; and
Planning of other people’s resources.
Planners who say they can do these things are misleading the public and themselves.

Comprehensive planning attempts to compare apples with oranges, yet no one can really say which are more important.
Long-term planning impossibly requires that planners accurately predict what the future will want or need.
Planners who try to control other people’s resources won’t pay the costs of their mistakes and so have little incentive to find the right answer.
I will try to post to this blog at least five days a week. Your comments are welcome and I will not censor anyone other than spammers and foul language. To keep out spam, you have to register and your first post must be moderated, but once I have approved one of your posts, you can add as many more comments as you like. I look forward to hearing from you."

Last edited by Urbanpdx; Jan 1, 2007 at 6:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 5:57 PM
bvpcvm bvpcvm is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Portland
Posts: 2,788
holy shit. so urbanpdx IS o'toole. and to think my googling had turned up another name.

look, you can be anti-planning all you want, but you're not going to get anywhere. home-owners and business people want some kind of plan so they can have some way to reduce their risk when they make investment decisions.

you know, it's occurred to me that there's a place out there for all you libertarians who want to do away with as much government as possible - a place where you can do whatever you want and no government will "steal" your profits or interfere. no, no, it's not some hallucinatory fantasy, it really exists - it's called somalia. as i'm sure you're aware, there's been no effective government there for 15 years. by now i imagine it's evolved into an entrepreneur's paradise. so why not check it out?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 6:19 PM
Dr. Smoke's Avatar
Dr. Smoke Dr. Smoke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 126
LOL

Just because an idea looks new, or you've never heard of it... doesn't mean that it's necessarily so. Houston had no zoning laws for decades, and now it is an unlivable mish-mash of freeways next to rest homes, gas stations in neighborhoods, and factories in parks.

YEEEHAWWW!!
__________________
George the Second, to wounded veterans in the Amputee Care Center of Brooke Army Medical Center, Jan. 1, 2006:
"As you can possibly see, I have an injury myself -- not here at the hospital, but in combat with a cedar. I eventually won. The cedar gave me a little scratch."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 7:29 PM
mhays mhays is offline
Never Dell
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 19,804
He's got a tough hill to climb. Northwesterners, at least urban ones, are generally in favor of planning. In fact we tend to scream bloody murder when something is proposed that doesn't match our preference for our neighborhood, and we realize that zoning is pretty much the only bulwark.

Houston is an excellent example of what happens without planning. Houston, you have a problem.

I assume urbanpdx isn't saying he likes this guy.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 7:34 PM
bvpcvm bvpcvm is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Portland
Posts: 2,788
maybe you've missed his previous tirades.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 8:58 PM
PDXPaul's Avatar
PDXPaul PDXPaul is offline
Redfin!
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Fremont
Posts: 1,268
Houston is what happens when you have government subsidizing motor transportation w/o zoning. If you had a completely free market situation, where even transportation was privately owned, it wouldn't look like Houston.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 9:59 PM
Drmyeyes Drmyeyes is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 384
Anti-planning in those places where people choose to live, particularly where they choose to live together, is simply anti-intelligent. It may not seem so at times, but where large numbers of people live together, working through government structure is simply the most fair, efficient and effective way to accomplish planning.

It is the way to best exert a cohesive effort towards accomodating changes in municipal infrastructural needs for large populations, particularly those growing at a rapid rate. It's the best way to most efficiently use materials, resources, and minimize waste and pollution that occurs from human population centers.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2007, 11:39 PM
Dr. Smoke's Avatar
Dr. Smoke Dr. Smoke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 126
Word, Dr.
__________________
George the Second, to wounded veterans in the Amputee Care Center of Brooke Army Medical Center, Jan. 1, 2006:
"As you can possibly see, I have an injury myself -- not here at the hospital, but in combat with a cedar. I eventually won. The cedar gave me a little scratch."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 2:28 AM
Snowden352's Avatar
Snowden352 Snowden352 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by bvpcvm View Post
holy shit. so urbanpdx IS o'toole. and to think my googling had turned up another name.

look, you can be anti-planning all you want, but you're not going to get anywhere. home-owners and business people want some kind of plan so they can have some way to reduce their risk when they make investment decisions.

you know, it's occurred to me that there's a place out there for all you libertarians who want to do away with as much government as possible - a place where you can do whatever you want and no government will "steal" your profits or interfere. no, no, it's not some hallucinatory fantasy, it really exists - it's called somalia. as i'm sure you're aware, there's been no effective government there for 15 years. by now i imagine it's evolved into an entrepreneur's paradise. so why not check it out?
thought you'd like to read how libertarians actually feel (or think) about Somalia.
http://www.independent.org/pdf/worki...64_somalia.pdf

It is interesting, if controversial, stuff. Worth a read, if you approach it with an open mind.
(edit: found via reason magazine)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 5:15 PM
Urbanpdx Urbanpdx is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 561
Randall posted his first entry on sprawl and protecting farmland, I am interested to see how you guys might respond.

BTW, I am not related in any way to O'toole.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 5:23 PM
Dr. Smoke's Avatar
Dr. Smoke Dr. Smoke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 126
So Urbanpdx, you stand by your position despite clear evidence that you are wrong about 'anti-planning'.

Classic.
__________________
George the Second, to wounded veterans in the Amputee Care Center of Brooke Army Medical Center, Jan. 1, 2006:
"As you can possibly see, I have an injury myself -- not here at the hospital, but in combat with a cedar. I eventually won. The cedar gave me a little scratch."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 5:28 PM
Urbanpdx Urbanpdx is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 561
I guess I got confused by your argument Dr. Smoke. Just so I understand, we need planning so liberal radio talk shows that few people want to listen to will still be on the air?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 5:35 PM
Dr. Smoke's Avatar
Dr. Smoke Dr. Smoke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 126
You smoking crack?

It's disrespectful to post in these forums when you are intoxicated, Urbanpdx.
__________________
George the Second, to wounded veterans in the Amputee Care Center of Brooke Army Medical Center, Jan. 1, 2006:
"As you can possibly see, I have an injury myself -- not here at the hospital, but in combat with a cedar. I eventually won. The cedar gave me a little scratch."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 5:40 PM
Urbanpdx Urbanpdx is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 561
I was thinking the same thing when you posted:

"such as rescission of equal time provisions by the FCC which directly lead to the rise of right-wing radio and the polarization of America"

Air America struggles to get a 2% share and need huge donations to stay on the air. If people wanted to listen to left wing radio a for-profit station would be happy to take in the ad revenue by putting them on the air.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 5:53 PM
Dr. Smoke's Avatar
Dr. Smoke Dr. Smoke is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanpdx View Post
I was thinking the same thing when you posted:
Oh, I get it. This is just revenge, for what I wrote.

I am not going to bicker, as you are trying to do.
__________________
George the Second, to wounded veterans in the Amputee Care Center of Brooke Army Medical Center, Jan. 1, 2006:
"As you can possibly see, I have an injury myself -- not here at the hospital, but in combat with a cedar. I eventually won. The cedar gave me a little scratch."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 6:11 PM
Urbanpdx Urbanpdx is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 561
thank you
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 6:19 PM
Urbanpdx Urbanpdx is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 561
I thought this was interesting:

Hi Randal,
One thing I’ve learned from watching government initiatives as a Libertarian is the inefficiency and counter productivity of those efforts in almost every attempt.
Isn’t “Government Land Use Planning” just another example of the inevitable result of reversed government worker incentives with little accountably and no competition?
Having said that, is not planning and loose organization necessary to fulfill the collective goals of building large nation-wide infrastructures like the major highways and court systems, and defend the country with a national military? Do we not have to tolerate and constantly expose the inefficiency to some degree to provide a basic level of organization in an otherwise free nation?
If so, then the question becomes:
“What do you think the proper level/role of government is?”
Very Best Regards,
Stu Seffern
Libertarian Party of Wisconsin
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 6:30 PM
pdxf pdxf is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanpdx View Post
Randall posted his first entry on sprawl and protecting farmland, I am interested to see how you guys might respond.

BTW, I am not related in any way to O'toole.
Well this was fun, and a complete waste of a half hour, but here you go...

“Only those who need property for growing crops or keeping animals and livestock not allowed in urban areas should be allowed to build homes in rural areas,” writes a reader of the Oregon Statesman-Journal. Though the Census Bureau does not keep track of exurbanites, many demographers believe that exurbia is the fastest-growing part of America. Naturally, anti-sprawl forces want to stop this growth. (growth doesn't equal sprawl...population growth, urbanization growth, redistribution etc...)

Back in 1995, Newsweek observed that, in Holland, “a businessman seeking to live on a farm and drive into the city to work would have to request permission from the government — and he might not get it.” The magazine suggested that the U.S. should have similar rules.

Oregon’s rules come close. Planners zoned than 95 percent of the state as “rural” in the 1980s. In 1993, the state planning commission decreed that no one could build a home on their own rural land unless they owned at least 160 acres, actually farmed it, and earned (depending on land productivity) at least $40,000 to $80,000 farming it in two of the previous three years. This strict rule was needed, said the director of the planning agency, because “lawyers, doctors, and others not really farming were building houses in farm zones.” Horrors!


Such strict rules might be appropriate if we were really running out of farmland and if there the market was failing to prevent overdevelopment. But there is no shortage of farm or rural land in the United States — or, really, anywhere in the world. Census and U.S.D.A. data show that, by any measure, 95 percent or more of the U.S. is rural. (rural != farmable…how much of the rural area is farmable, is it mountainous, desert, etc…?) Urbanization is “not considered a threat to the Nation’s food production overall, land development and urbanization is a critical issue because it can lead to fragmentation of agricultural and forest land; loss of prime farmland, wildlife habitat, and other resources; additional infrastructure costs for communities and regional authorities; and competition for water.” (full context added from: http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/TECHNICAL/l...ighlights.pdf), adds the U.S.D.A. Even if there was a shortage, a scarcity of farm land would drive up land prices and make development unprofitable. (As well as farming, since the land costs more, your produce will cost more.)


Planners respond that there may be lots of rural lands, but urbanization often threatens the most productive farmlands. The most productive lands in Oregon are in the Willamette Valley, which occupies one-seventh of the state but houses two-thirds of its residents. Will population growth and sprawl ruin those valuable farms?

A smart-growth group known as the Willamette Valley Livability Forum asked this question a few years ago. As I noted in Vanishing Auto update #10, they commissioned a study that found that urban areas now cover 5.9 percent of the valley and projected that, under Oregon’s strict planning rules, this would increase to 6.6 percent in the next fifty years. But if there were no planning rules and Oregon let “short-term market forces call the shots,” the study found, then urbanization would grow to cover 7.6 percent of the valley in fifty years. (Without planning rules, the growth would be almost 2.5 times greater than with rules, which I would consider substantial ((7.6-5.9)/(6.6-5.9)=2.4). So without planning, all of the sprawl in the coming 50 years would require 2 ½ times as much space as with planning….and this is with a fairly short time frame of just 50 years.

So that means that all of Oregon’s costly (!?) planning rules are protecting just 1 percent (not actually, 1% is a direct difference of the growth (7.6-6.6), which is not equal to 1% of total land area) of the state’s most productive farms and forests from development. Big deal. (The Livability Forum nonetheless managed to report the numbers in hysterical terms in a tabloid sent at taxpayer expense to nearly half a million Oregon homes in 2001.)

But isn’t there a problem with exurbanization fragmenting farms? It is difficult to see why when the average size farm in many European countries is less than one-sixth as large as the average American farm, while the average farm in Asia is less than 1 percent as large as American farms. Yet farmers in those countries manage to be pretty productive, at least when they have an economic incentive to be productive. (What are the rates of import for these countries, what are their export rates, especially compared with the US, etc…)

So why the panic over exurbanization? Urban residents who spend most of their time in cities or on rural interstates have no real conception of how much rural land the U.S. has. (Do rural people?) They get upset when they see a nearby farm developed. Planners who may or may not know better rely on such feelings to promote their own agenda (As do antiplanners), which is to encourage people to live in compact cities.

Why are planners so fascinated with compact cities? They claim to be scientific, but the truth is that cities are too complicated for anyone to plan (Multiple issues with this comment,logical fallcy: appeal to ignorance??) . So planners rely on fads and simplifications. Compact cities are the current fad (and generally the norm throughout human history, especially before the development of the auto, which by definition wouldn't be a fad). But as Robert Bruegmann observed at the 2006 Preserving the American Dream conference, “there is nothing inherent about sprawl that is any more or less environmentally friendly than cities.” (Baseless quote, without any supporting facts, and on the surface seems blatantly wrong)

Why should government planners get to dictate whether someone gets to build a house on their own land? (Perhaps if it infringes on a neighbor’s rights?) Why should governments try to force people to live in compact cities? There are no good answers to these questions (I think I just gave one), but we do know that regulations aimed at “protecting” farms and open space have added hundreds of billions of dollars to the cost of housing in the U.S. — a cost far greater than any benefit gained from such rules.

Last edited by pdxf; Jan 2, 2007 at 10:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 6:35 PM
Urbanpdx Urbanpdx is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 561
Did you post that on the blog so he could respond to your questions?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2007, 6:41 PM
pdxf pdxf is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanpdx View Post
Did you post that on the blog so he could respond to your questions?
No, he's ignored my emails in the past, but perhaps I'll try again, especially now that it looks as though he has an open comments section. It is pretty difficult for me whenever I visit his site...I generally want to do this to all of his writings but I really don't have time to do it and I don't really think it's worth it. I don't think it would change anyone's mind, and perhaps I'm totally wrong!
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Pacific West > Portland > Parks, Metro, Urban Design & Heritage Issues
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 7:51 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.