New Brunswick What If?

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, in the early stages of bilingualism outside Quebec in the 50s and 60s and even in the 70s, bilingual institutions were opened in NB, NS, ON, MB, etc. It was observed that these led to the assimilation of francophones, which is why these groups pushed for their own institutions.

Does anyone here believe funding these separate institutions is not worth it?

[cormiermax]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Does anyone here believe funding these separate institutions is not worth it?

Quite a few anglophones don't.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by cormiermax

Quite a few anglophones don't.

I'm an anglophone and I believe it's worth it. And I'm willing to bet that is the majority.

[cormiermax]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I'm an anglophone and I believe it's worth it. And I'm willing to bet that is the majority.

Its hard to say really, I don't think any polls have really been done.

[pierremoncton]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I'm an anglophone and I believe it's worth it. And I'm willing to bet that is the majority.

It's frankly the first time I've heard an anglophone express this point of view, so I would tend to agree that the majority probably do not share it. I think that francophones generally feel that they're second class, and I can assert that I've shared that feeling in the past. In general, my (gut-feeling) opinion is that most anglophones don't want to bother with French.

When francophones ask for more recognition or privileges, they normally get labeled as whiny and get told to know their place (and this applies to any group that has fought for rights). Read the comments on cbc.ca/nb, and you'll see what I mean. The most illustrative aspect is not the few bigoted comments by themselves, but the number of thumbs up vs down. I think there's a subtle and generally-muted, but real distaste for the French language and the people who speak it. And I think this is generally true all across Canada as a whole, just like Québecers feel towards the 'ROC'. I'm stereotyping, so nobody get offended on a personal level!

I think this animosity and stereotyping is natural and that most people, including myself, discriminate to a certain extent. The only way to attenuate this effect is to get to know more people. When people from a certain religious group connect with people from another religious group, neither religion needs to disappear. When people from one ethnicity connect with people from another, nobody loses their skin colour. But when people from two different linguistic groups meet, one language literally has to be chosen over the other, causing one identity to be threatened.

One thing I don't understand is why (certain vocal) unilingual anglophones complain about not being able to obtain bilingual jobs. You'd never hear someone complain that they should be able to practice medicine even though they never bothered going to medical school (because "it's too hard" or "useless"). Neither acquiring a new language nor getting that PhD will come as a free toy out of a cereal box.

And unilingual francophones would not get employed in bilingual positions either. I agree that French can be convoluted, but that's really an excuse, because speaking a language 'perfectly' is unrealistic and futile -- nobody of right mind will care if someone erroneously says 'le' instead of 'la'. I started learning English in 3rd grade; I still have a certain accent 25 years later and I still use expressions and conjunctions that are questionable, but good enough.

Having said all that, I agree that dualism is wasteful economically-speaking, although by much less than some people like to think. Having multiple languages also causes rifts that need not exist.

Personally, I think some improvements could be made to how languages are managed in New Brunswick, but I don't foresee anything changing soon. There could be regions where services are officially English; other regions where services are officially French; and the rest where fully-bilingual services would be required. But nobody will ever touch this.

If there's one thing that anglophones can complain about, it's by contrasting that prison school on Ryan St with l'école Ste-Thérèse in Dieppe.

[MonctonRad]

You can be frustrated and upset with the current status quo without being anti-French.

I'll give you my perspectives on the health care situation in NB, with an emphasis on Moncton.

For most of my 23 years in the province, the government has steadfastly insisted that duality in health care cannot be afforded and is therefore not an official goal of the provincial government. The disastrous Graham government however made a number of policy decisions which will result in de facto duality.

The most important of these was the consolidation of the eight regional health care corporations into two entities (Horizon and Vitalite), one English and one French. Whereas before health care had been regionally based, now it would be linguistically based. Nearly concurrent with this, the government created two medical education programs, again linguistically based in Saint John and Moncton. There would be two "university hospital centers" - the Saint John Regional Hospital and le Centre Universitaire Dr. Georges-L. Dumont.

So now we have two linguistic health care corporations, two linguistic medical education programs and two linguistic university hospitals. If this isn't duality, I don't know what is!!!

I happen to work at the Moncton Hospital. TMH has traditionally been the largest and most sophisticated hospital in eastern NB, second only to the SJRH in the province. We still are a major hospital with well developed tertiary care services including neurosurgery, vascular surgery, thoracic surgery and trauma care.

I fear for the future of my hospital however. The difference in the rate of growth between the TMH and the GDH in the last 15 years has been nothing short of stunning. It is safe to say the the TMH is now adrift and is on the cusp of a gradual decline. We are stuck in an anglophone corporation that with be centred out of Saint John. Our hospital no longer has any influence or power. The GDH on the other hand is the principle hospital of the francophone corporation and is the university hospital for the francophone medical education system. They have tremendous influence and power compared to TMH. Is this fair for Moncton?

The question should be "what does duality mean?" Should duality be provincially based or should it be regionally based?

Right now, in health care duality has become provincially based. This means that the francophone population of the province will have have roughly equivalent resources to the anglophone population. The francophone resources will be based in Moncton while the anglophone resources will be based in Saint John. The principle hospital in Moncton will likely become the Dumont, despite the fact that the CMA is nearly 70% anglophone. A major question in Moncton should be "should 30% of the population (francophone) have 60-70% of the resources?" Is this fair? Even if the province deems this to be fair (on a provincial level), you can see how it could lead to angerness, bitterness and frustration for some anglophones in greater Moncton.

It's not that most anglophones in Moncton are anti-French, we know too many Acadians not to have strong attachments and affection for them. It's just that we want our own community to continue to flourish and grow too. We want to have our own institutions (universities, hospitals etc.) to help define us and support our community. We want our own children to have opportunities in the city that they grew up in. We want to keep Moncton a city attractive for anglophone immigration. We want to have a vibrant anglophone community (right next to the vibrant francophone community).

The Moncton Hospital is the major anglophone institution in the city. We need to keep it vibrant to support the anglophone community. I fear for the future of the hospital though.........

It might be too late.

[cormiermax]

Just because GDH is now the base for French healthcare in the province, does that really effect how either hospital is run? May not completely understand the situation.

[riverviewer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

We are stuck in an anglophone corporation that with be centred out of Saint John. Is this fair for Moncton?
.

This is a Moncton/Saint John argument, not a French/English one. I am a western Canadian immigrant to Moncton with limited French skills. I have had need of emergency treatment by both Georges Dumont and Moncton Hospital and was treated wonderfully by both. My father in law was treated for heart issues in Saint John and is well now after a successful multiple bypass.

Though I would prefer to have every possible medical service close-by in a language I understand that is not a reasonable request in New Brunswick. Given the budgetary challenges of the province, I am thankful for health care in any language.
.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by riverviewer

This is a Moncton/Saint John argument, not a French/English one..

You are quite right, this is a Moncton/Saint John "thing" but it is also a French/English "thing" and goes to the heart of the theme of this thread - New Brunswick - what if?

In NS, it's easy - if you need a new service you place it in Halifax and operate it in one language. In NB, you have three competing cities and two languages so it is not nearly so easy. There will always be (percieved) winners and losers in NB.

Bilingualism is a two edged sword. It is both a strength and a weakness for the province.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by pierremoncton

One thing I don't understand is why (certain vocal) unilingual anglophones complain about not being able to obtain bilingual jobs. You'd never hear someone complain that they should be able to practice medicine even though they never bothered going to medical school (because "it's too hard" or "useless"). Neither acquiring a new language nor getting that PhD will come as a free toy out of a cereal box.

While I think I understand what you are getting at, I think your analogy is flawed when it tries to illustrate bilingualism in Moncton. The reality is that while many jobs state "bilingual" as a requirement, very few jobs actually require it day-to-day.

Someone I know who found a (rare) "French not required" retail job and over the course of two years only encountered two people who insisted on speaking French, or could not speak English (referred to other staff, thankfully). That in itself is not a problem. However, if you put forth the effort to take a French as a second language course, you likely will 1) lose it because you'll RARELY use it and 2) encounter dialects spoken here that aren't the same as what you learned in your program.

Overall, I think it's being made more complicated that it really needs to be...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

Someone I know who found a (rare) "French not required" retail job ...

I think the perception that all retail jobs in Moncton require bilingualism is a widespread but totally false one. As any francophone who shops in Moncton (even at Champlain Place which is technically in francophone majority Dieppe) knows, there are tons of store staff who speak only English. So what is probably true is that bilinguals likely get the edge for positions when employers have a choice (which is sort of normal since they have an extra "skill"), but it is still obviously false to any francophone who shops in Greater Moncton that unilingual anglos can't get work in retail there.

BTW, you hear the same thing in Ottawa and yet I can tell you from experience that the vast majority of service staff even in the east end (more francophone) part of Ottawa speak only English.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think the perception that all retail jobs in Moncton require bilingualism is a widespread but totally false one. As any francophone who shops in Moncton (even at Champlain Place which is technically in francophone majority Dieppe) knows, there are tons of store staff who speak only English. So what is probably true is that bilinguals likely get the edge for positions when employers have a choice (which is sort of normal since they have an extra "skill"), but it is still obviously false to any francophone who shops in Greater Moncton that unilingual anglos can't get work in retail there.

BTW, you hear the same thing in Ottawa and yet I can tell you from experience that the vast majority of service staff even in the east end (more francophone) part of Ottawa speak only English.

I agree with that. I guess my experience has been, however, that many of these jobs post as "bilingual" even though they'd still likely hire a uniphone. Friends of mine who have recently moved to the province (and who are trying to learn French) often lament the fact that they feel like they won't get their foot in the door if they aren't fluently bilingual. I tell them to go ahead and apply anyway.

[Acajack]

I think most anglos in NB are somewhat fairer-minded that some of what is being alluded to here.

Overall, I don't think that someone in Minto or St. Andrews (although they may not be particularly interested in learning any French personally) really cares or minds whether schools or hospitals operate in French in Caraquet or Tracadie. This is an improvement over decades ago when the prevailing mentality was probably more about having wall-to-wall English all over the province in order to assimilate the Acadians.

Where it gets touchy is where there is a perception that French services have to be offered in areas where there are few or no francophones, and the ensuing impact this has on hiring people to offer these services.

In the case of the Moncton hospitals, it appears that it might be more a case of things being badly managed and explained, instead of a pure and classic Canadian English vs. French thing.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

I agree with that. I guess my experience has been, however, that many of these jobs post as "bilingual" even though they'd still likely hire a uniphone. Friends of mine who have recently moved to the province (and who are trying to learn French) often lament the fact that they feel like they won't get their foot in the door if they aren't fluently bilingual. I tell them to go ahead and apply anyway.

I agree with you as well. If you talk to retailers in places like Moncton and Ottawa, they will tell you it is tough to find bilingual staff because bilingual people often can get better jobs than retail. Of course, in some cases I suspect some retailers in these cities do hire unilinguals deliberately just to prove a point, but I would hope most business people don't work this way and want to serve their clients the best way possible.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by pierremoncton

One thing I don't understand is why (certain vocal) unilingual anglophones complain about not being able to obtain bilingual jobs. You'd never hear someone complain that they should be able to practice medicine even though they never bothered going to medical school (because "it's too hard" or "useless"). Neither acquiring a new language nor getting that PhD will come as a free toy out of a cereal box.

This mostly has to do with a They Took Our Jobs mentality, most commonly exhibited in South Park. As an example, political (management) jobs in New Brunswick that require a bilingual individual, which therefore exclude the majority of Anglophones in the province automatically. It's more a concern over why French is held in such high esteem and regard when the majority are English. I absolutely agree with everything else you wrote.

The Ferguson issue a few months back is a perfect example of this. He is probably the most qualified person for the job, but because he cannot speak French he is (almost nearly) automatically disqualified from eligibility. This irks a lot of Anglos.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GregHickman

The Ferguson issue a few months back is a perfect example of this. He is probably the most qualified person for the job, but because he cannot speak French he is (almost nearly) automatically disqualified from eligibility. This irks a lot of Anglos.

Nobody tries to see the issue from the other's point of view. Francophones are angered by stuff like Ferguson's hiring because they know full well that a unilingual francophone, however qualified, would never have been considered. So there is the perception of a double standard: we demand bilingualism, but the rules can be bent, but only for unilingual anglophones.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Nobody tries to see the issue from the other's point of view. Francophones are angered by stuff like Ferguson's hiring because they know full well that a unilingual francophone, however qualified, would never have been considered. So there is the perception of a double standard: we demand bilingualism, but the rules can be bent, but only for unilingual anglophones.

My impression is also that government requirements for bilingualism tend to be very low. I've never taken any government language proficiency tests but the requirements make it sound like the basic level tests are "quel âge as-tu?" type questions.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

My impression is also that government requirements for bilingualism tend to be very low. I've never taken any government language proficiency tests but the requirements make it sound like the basic level tests are "quel âge as-tu?" type questions.

It varies greatly I'd say, and a lot of people say the requirements are way too stringent.

In the case of Mr. Ferguson, he probably should have had at least an ability to peruse those government documents that are produced in French, which he is responsible for checking.

And also being able to answer reporters' questions in French during press conferences would have been good.