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  #521  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2011, 7:20 AM
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Originally Posted by s.p.hansen View Post


This is great news!
I agree. I can't wait to get on light rail from DEN airport to downtown Denver. How long to get there? Is that approximately 40 to 50 minutes?
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  #522  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2011, 12:41 PM
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They'll probably go the cheaper route anyway.
No, the figures quoted are what the private companies will pay to renovate and outfit the building. They will then pay rent to the city of Denver. The hotel proposal offers more revenue to the city than the market proposal does.
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  #523  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2011, 5:57 PM
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Well sure but won't that just jam more people in the building than neccessary?

Are there any other examples of Train Stations mixed with hotels in the same building?

I agree with the Post's feeling. Best focus on what it was truly made for, to accomodate the most travelers.
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  #524  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2011, 6:38 AM
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Originally Posted by waltlantz View Post
Well sure but won't that just jam more people in the building than neccessary?

Are there any other examples of Train Stations mixed with hotels in the same building?

I agree with the Post's feeling. Best focus on what it was truly made for, to accomodate the most travelers.
The problem with your continued assertions about building the highest capacity station possible is that the headhouse - the existing, historic 1904 station, that is - will play a rather diminished role in the entire Union Station complex.

Originally, and until very recently, Union Station was a through station. The CML, or Consolidated Main Line for Union Pacific and BNSF which runs North South through Downtown, used to branch off from its Southern approach to to DUS. Due in no small part to Denver's incredible urban success downtown, those tracks were torn up and the ROW replaced with high density development, creating a terminal-type station at DUS and routing (really just severing a connection -as the CML had been operational for some time) all freight trains just a few blocks West.

The new terminal station will be the hub for most transit services in Denver, however it will be a very spread out hub and, due to the fact that it is (now) a terminal station, all 8 platforms will have direct access to 16th street from the platform level. For many commuters, especially those that are regular commuters and are using reduced-fare or per-month farecards, there will be absolutely no need to use the headhouse and it will be far more convienent to simply walk to their destination downtown via 15th, transfer to the 16th street mall shuttles (which will be located directly below the station in the bus box now under construction) or to light rail, for which the terminal is two blocks WEST of the commuter rail terminal.

While the headhouse building will hold ticketing and hold room facilities for many commuter rail passengers, the primary transportation service it will preform is for Amtrak's long distance California Zypher trains. Those serve Denver twice a day, being one in each direction. DUS has served this purpose for some time, and during or after boarding, there can be a very healthy number of people in the main holdroom for ticketing, baggage claim, or simply waiting for their train (or Amtrak thru bus connection).

In the meantime, that is, when it isn't the commuter rush hour or Amtrak train departure time, the station wants to be a major draw for the community. The historic station's role in the entire DUS redevelopment is as a historical reuse landmark, and it will be very important as a draw for the station and a major selling point when businesses choose to relocate to the development. It needs to have a unique and exciting flavor to draw persnickety suburban office firms into downtown, and even more importantly persnickety suburban commuters to stick around for awhile downtown and spend money.

I really like the Cosentino's Market in Downtown KC or something like Pike Place Market in Seattle perhaps. The hotel idea is also really cool though less compelling. The argument that the station should be designed as a high capacity transit point, though, is moot. It already is, and it doesn't really require a high-capacity historic station.

I, for one, will happily be among the first passengers to the airport in 2015/16 when the first East Corridor train departs. I simply cannot wait!!!
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  #525  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2011, 5:18 PM
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The problem with your continued assertions about building the highest capacity station possible is that the headhouse - the existing, historic 1904 station, that is - will play a rather diminished role in the entire Union Station complex.

Originally, and until very recently, Union Station was a through station. The CML, or Consolidated Main Line for Union Pacific and BNSF which runs North South through Downtown, used to branch off from its Southern approach to to DUS. Due in no small part to Denver's incredible urban success downtown, those tracks were torn up and the ROW replaced with high density development, creating a terminal-type station at DUS and routing (really just severing a connection -as the CML had been operational for some time) all freight trains just a few blocks West.

The new terminal station will be the hub for most transit services in Denver, however it will be a very spread out hub and, due to the fact that it is (now) a terminal station, all 8 platforms will have direct access to 16th street from the platform level. For many commuters, especially those that are regular commuters and are using reduced-fare or per-month farecards, there will be absolutely no need to use the headhouse and it will be far more convienent to simply walk to their destination downtown via 15th, transfer to the 16th street mall shuttles (which will be located directly below the station in the bus box now under construction) or to light rail, for which the terminal is two blocks WEST of the commuter rail terminal.

While the headhouse building will hold ticketing and hold room facilities for many commuter rail passengers, the primary transportation service it will preform is for Amtrak's long distance California Zypher trains. Those serve Denver twice a day, being one in each direction. DUS has served this purpose for some time, and during or after boarding, there can be a very healthy number of people in the main holdroom for ticketing, baggage claim, or simply waiting for their train (or Amtrak thru bus connection).

In the meantime, that is, when it isn't the commuter rush hour or Amtrak train departure time, the station wants to be a major draw for the community. The historic station's role in the entire DUS redevelopment is as a historical reuse landmark, and it will be very important as a draw for the station and a major selling point when businesses choose to relocate to the development. It needs to have a unique and exciting flavor to draw persnickety suburban office firms into downtown, and even more importantly persnickety suburban commuters to stick around for awhile downtown and spend money.

I really like the Cosentino's Market in Downtown KC or something like Pike Place Market in Seattle perhaps. The hotel idea is also really cool though less compelling. The argument that the station should be designed as a high capacity transit point, though, is moot. It already is, and it doesn't really require a high-capacity historic station.
I suspect that many unfamiliar with the Denver Union Station Project think that the build out is primarily an integrated train/bus/light rail project.

No, the project is a huge real estate build out, into which a moderate capacity light rail stub, bus station/and commuter rail stub lines have been shoe horned. The intent was to provide a degree of passenger user interconnection, while providing a huge amount of (hopefully affluent) pedestrian traffic. Only the light rail and the bus portions are truly integrated,* while the commuter rail is isolated in the sense that one walks around the end of the stub tracks. There will be no continuous spine from the light rail at the north end into the Denver Union Station building.

This is the result of the extremely heavy private partner pressure to use the maximum percentage of the development to put in office buildings, some retail, and, residential buildings, at the expense of integrating the complex.

Frankly, the intent of making the Denver Union Station building the center of a transportation nexus, as was pushed so eloquently for so many years, will not happen. The building stands as a rather useless work of art, located about 100 meters south of the true center of the transportation complex, the southern exit of underground bus spine at Wewatta.

Those that saw this consequence many years ago, lost the final argument, which was a conflict between poor, transportation realists, and, parties that had put large sums of money into the eventual development of their properties (remember the entire area was a flat, treeless, grass covered, field, north of the Station Building to start with).

Basically, no one real knows what to do with the Building where the choices are either a hotel or a boutique collection of stores. IMO, all parties regard this as rather embarassing, because so many Denverites remember the push to develope the 'Grand Old Station' as the passenger user center stone of the entire concept.

Realize, too, that even destroying the building would not signficantly affect the finished design, as only Amtrak users will HAVE to the use facility (perhaps .4-5% of the total passengers that will embark and disembrark via the commuter tracks). (The "I", with an severed spine, will force users to cross busy roads, and, more importantly, ENCOURAGE users to walk by 3 block long commercial business fronts, rather than walk through a narrow 2 block long buried bus station. And these users, likely, will not step foot in the Grand Room of DUS).

But, this is history for us in Denver which we will have to live with. However, for those readers who live in metropolitan areas where this type of development as yet to to occurr, the discussion concerning the final use of Union Station is the 'nail in the coffin' of a project that should be studied Nation wide for what NOT TO DO, as well as WHAT TO DO.

The times are going to continue to get tougher, and, IMO, all large US metro cities will likely have to build something like the Union Station complex as car use declines. So become very active locally in your city and study the 10 years of Denver transportation history that are culminating with the Union Station development, and, don't repeat the mistakes that have been painfully learned here in Denver.

*The buried bus station was put into a foot print orginally intended by a development faction to be for 2 stub ended light rail tracks seperated by a platform. When this faction lost and property partners pushing the buried bus terminal won, property owners abutting the initially agreed upon property foot print forced the narrow build out design.

The most efficient bus terminal design is the passenger terminal surrounded by a continuous loop for buses.

For this reason, no continous spine could be built under the commuter rail tracks. This forced small scale alternatives, such a low capacity 'circulator' to assign in moving people, as an alternative to walking the length of the bus station spin, cross a (to be) very busy street, then walk around the stub ends of the commuter station, to access a particular commuter train.
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Last edited by Wizened Variations; Nov 25, 2011 at 7:16 PM.
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  #526  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 10:42 AM
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That's not accurate at all Wizened. The underground Bus terminal, has an enclosed pedestrian walkway which connects both the Light rail on one end, to the Commuter rail on the other end (equally so). So to claim the Bus and light rail are connected, but not the bus and commuter rail, is false. They are equally so, connected.

Furthmore, the underground Bus terminal is more so connected to the Commuter rail platforms, than it is to the Light Rail platforms. The pedestrians emerge to ground level, just shy of the Light rail platforms and have to actually walk a short distance to the actual platforms. Whereas on the Commuter rail side, the bus terminal extends under all the platforms where pedestrians can go up to each of the individual platforms. They can also emerge right up into the Historic Union Stations doors, where a small canopy keeps them covered right into the building. There is no such canopy from the bus terminal to the Light Rail platforms, on the other end.

Let me demonstrate:

Light Rail platforms, are on the very far right edge of this rendering. Whereas the Commuter rail platofroms and Historic Union Station, are clearly far more intergrated with the underground corridor to be used to connect everything together:


In this rendering, see the little rectangular structures in the Commuter Rail platforms, in the middle of the train room? Those are stairs from below grade pedestrial corridor. In addition to this, there is also an elevated plaform with access to the platforms, on the right end of the train room (giving pedestrians the option to reach their platform via the underground bus terminal corridor in middle, elevated structor, or at-grade on left by just walking around to the desired platform from the 16th Street Mall shuttle station right there):


Here is a better view of the elevated pedestrian structure, to access each commuter rail platoform, from the right side of Union Station:





On top of this, there will be a 16th Street Mall shuttle stop right next to the Light rail platforms, which will then travel down and stop again, right next to the Commuter Rail platoforms. As seen here in green on the left:



And below in the underground terminal, there will be the 18th Street circulator bus with a stop right at base of Light rail platforms, down in the underground bus terminal/pedestrian corridor, which will then travel down the underground bus terminal to another stop right under the Commuter Rail platforms, from which passengers can then get off the bus and travel straight up to their desired commuter rail platform. As seen here in purple:


Here are renderings of the underground Bus terminal Pedestrian corridor, demonstrating how it will be fully enclosed from the actual bus bays and designed to look and feel very inviting for pedestrians to use for making their connections to-from Light Rail, Bus and Commuter Rail:



Here is where pedestrians will emerge from the underground Bus terminal, and have to walk a short distance to the Light rail Platoforms:
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  #527  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 10:47 AM
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One more rendering, showing on far right, the stairs/escelators from the UnderGround Pedestrian corridor, emegring up right in front of Historic Union Station, with a canopy covering right up to the building. This shows the interaction between the two. In the back, you can see the elevated pedestrian structure, for providing access to the platforms. In the middle, you can see the stairs (covered with the rectangular structures), from the Underground pedestrian corridor, providing the access from below, to the actual platforms:
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  #528  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2011, 10:50 PM
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Wow, thanks for the info.

Well considering what I know now, this sounds a lot like the main railway complex they have at Madrid.

The station facility is modern while the classic facility is home to a huge indoor plaza.
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  #529  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2011, 1:49 AM
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Originally Posted by N830MH View Post
I agree. I can't wait to get on light rail from DEN airport to downtown Denver. How long to get there? Is that approximately 40 to 50 minutes?
I'm curious about this as well. It's a good 25 miles from downtown to the airport and there will be 5 stations in between the two. I would think 45 minutes seems about right.
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  #530  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2011, 3:48 PM
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I'm curious about this as well. It's a good 25 miles from downtown to the airport and there will be 5 stations in between the two. I would think 45 minutes seems about right.
The travel time between Denver Union Station and Denver International Airport, in both directions, is 35 minutes according to the timetable of the concessionaire that is building and will operate it.
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  #531  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2011, 7:51 PM
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That's not accurate at all Wizened. The underground Bus terminal, has an enclosed pedestrian walkway which connects both the Light rail on one end, to the Commuter rail on the other end (equally so). So to claim the Bus and light rail are connected, but not the bus and commuter rail, is false. They are equally so, connected. ]
I stand corrected. SnyderBock, you are right.

(I was confused about where the south end of the bus route around the terminal ended. This removes about 50% of my criticism of the DUS development, and, also increases the traffic potential of the facility. The bus terminal itself is going to a rat warren as it is too narrow due to property abuttments when the new team won the bid, but, that problem is nothing compared to finally realizing (and being very happy) that the underground teminal is continuous....)

Because my criticisms are still 50% valid:

THE GREAT ROOM IS GOING TO GET VERY BUSY. YES! What a great thing! The Great Room will not be able to handle them all in about 5 years. In bad weather, it will be packed, the floor wet, people milling around because there will be less claustrophobia there than in the Underground. So, NO DEVELOPMENTS other than a newstand and coffee shot please.

Thanks to your repeated 'trying to tell me' I have more confidence in what was done with the DUS plan (still should have had the commuter rail and light rail adjacent to one another, the bus station to the south between the steel rail and DUS but comparatively speaking, that is minor. Not having through rails enplace is still a grievous failure...

Instead of a 'D' I give it a C+. This would be in comparison to Urban Core stations built world wide over the last 20 years. The complex does not compare with many being built or recently built in China, nor does the DUS complex compare favorably to Frankfurt, or Berlin, and to at least 20 station complexes in Japan. In the US? An A-. In the top 6 out of the 50 largest metro areas downtown transportation facilities, as they exist today (right after New York, Washington, Chicago, BETTER than Boston ((due to Tip O'Neil and a certain freeway), LA (based upon their reconnections that will enable through traffic that should be completed by 2015-18 to their Union Station) and Portland.

Sure is nice to feel better when you are wrong! I'll live with the confined crowds, the lack of cross platform boarding, the distance between the commuter rail and light rail stub lines... as long as I can use my cane and walk to the wierd exit from the Underground to the light rail.

Speaking of which: why don't they do a little alteration and widen the glass walls at the Bus Terminal north exit to compensate for where the elevator is being placed? A few tens of thousands spent now would reduce a potential choke point.
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Last edited by Wizened Variations; Nov 29, 2011 at 8:24 PM.
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  #532  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2011, 8:53 PM
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A quick question. I was under the assumption there were 8 rail platforms at DUS, but in the renderings, I only see six (three pairs of two).

Are the LRT platforms counted in the 8 platform number?
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  #533  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2011, 10:00 PM
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I don't know why Denver needs an absurd number of tracks. Given the ONE daily Amtrak train that stops there now and the planned EMU lines (and maybe the occasional Ski Train) there is more than enough platform space.

In the future, advanced signaling can wring even more capacity out of the station. If it ever gets to the point where Colorado has a network of intercity and commuter trains and enough traffic to justify a 10-platform station, I think that will be the time to build at a peripheral location like plenty of other great cities have done, and simply re-organize local transit to serve the new station (38th and Blake seems like a good candidate for long-term planning, or, hell, the vast areas of parking at Auraria). But that's at least 40 years into the future.
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  #534  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2011, 10:48 PM
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A quick question. I was under the assumption there were 8 rail platforms at DUS, but in the renderings, I only see six (three pairs of two).

Are the LRT platforms counted in the 8 platform number?

No, there are 8 platforms, not counting the Light Rail platforms. The Commuter Rail terminal has a special platform configuration, which staggers the platforms, so only two very large, middle platforms will be needed.

Here is an enhanced rendering, in which I highlighted platform location. Note, there is also capacity for the light rail platforms, to be made a through line and there is reserved ROW, for a 3rd platform next to the light rail platforms (also which can be a through line), and which can be used for regional, intercity rail service, at some future point in time. There is also a reserved stub-end platform in the main train shed, for future intercity rail. The combination of one intercity through line platform and one intetrcity stub-end platform, should be sufficient to get something going, if funds are ever found for such a project.


again, notice three purple platforms, staggered, both north and south of the long AmTrack platforms I have in red. Both red platforms, won't really be used by AmTrak, unless they add routes through Denver (talk of bringing back the Pioneer route from denver-Salt Lake-Boise-Portland-Seattle, could come up again someday). It was originally for the SkiTrain, which is now gone. So it could also be used for a Front Range HSR line, or for future Denver RTD lines, not yet envisioned (it is purely auxilery, at this point).
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  #535  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2011, 12:00 AM
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I don't get why the platforms aren't covered in a continuous cover, without the giant hole. Doesn't it ever snow or rain in Denver?
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  #536  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2011, 12:05 AM
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I don't get why the platforms aren't covered in a continuous cover, without the giant hole. Doesn't it ever snow or rain in Denver?
They get Blizzards starting in November and going to Mid March or early April. And what i don't get is why are they leaving it open , in the summer time Denver bakes up 110F sometimes...
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  #537  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2011, 1:48 AM
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It preserves the viewshed of historic Union Station...
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  #538  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2011, 10:51 AM
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That's correct, Historic Union Station has it's own view ordinance. Plus, Denver has more days of sunshine, than any major city in America, averaging more than 300 days of sun per year. And the summer doesn't get to 110 degrees, the record highest for any day in Denver is like 105 or 106 degrees and that type of temp happens once or twice a decade. 95-105 degree temps happen only from about July-August (so about 2 months) and it's not even humid, so in the shade it feels fine. Enough of the pltforms are covered, so most shoudl be able to find shade just fine.

While I don't totally agree with the view plane ordinance, there is little that can be done about it, for now. On the occassions there is snow, I'm sure the platforms will be kept clear with enbedded heating and rapid snow removal service and deicing (things Denver is good at doing).

It also may encourage more transit users to wait inside the Historic Union Station terminal, instead of outside. Of course, the underground, enclosed and climate controlled pedestrian corridor down the middle of the Bus terminal, will extend under these platforms and have dirrect access up to them. This underground area will be well lite with natural and artifical lighting. It will have a very large amount of bench space in it. It is said to also contain small venders and ammenities such as news stands, ticket machines, coffee stands and restrooms. There should also be many screens displaying live status of trains arrival times and such, so passengers may wait down there, right up until they see their train is about to arrive, then go up to the platform and board.
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Old Posted Jan 22, 2012, 10:35 AM
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DUS January Update

Here's the latest photos of the construction progress from Kiewits earthcam...

This is the second half of the underground bus terminal and enclosed pedestrian walkway (this is the section that comes right up to DUS
and the Commuter Rail Terminal and canopy will be constructed over
this, once it's complete):


Here is the middle section of the underground bus terminal/enclosed
walkway (notice the skylights):


And this is the other end of the underground Bus Terminal/pedestrian
walkway. The covered structure is the stairs/escelators and elevators
to below), as well as the Light Rail Terminal at far left. The landscaping
between the Light Rail and access to the underground facility, is still
underway (notice the paving stones are being placed):



Lets not forget Denverinfill.com's 2011 DUS construction progress retrospective.
It's an excellent post worth reading and viewing!
http://denverinfill.com/blog/2012/01...ospective.html

Here's a shot from the Denverinfill retrospective, which does a nice job of showing the entire site:
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  #540  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2012, 11:13 PM
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^ I would recommend resizing pics in the future. Those are impossible to view on a smartphone.
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