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  #11621  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2019, 4:00 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by OTownandDown View Post
I've always been a proponent of electric buses for this very reason.

I live on a 2nd floor on Bank Street, and buses starting from the stop outside my house reach 110 decibels at the exhaust vent which points towards my living room window. It reaches 70 decibels inside my living room, which is 5 decibels higher than the noise bylaw. But 'City Vehicles' are exempt.

But, it IS a freaking train. I mean... its a train. Nobody should have ever said 'whisper quiet'
You really should email this to the Joanne Chianello and show the other side of the story.
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  #11622  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2019, 4:23 PM
sseguin sseguin is offline
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OP-ED on Winter Performance of the Alstom Citadis Spririt trains. Let's finally put this debate to rest... will they run in the winter? We have no doubt they will and have no reason to think otherwise.

"The biggest factor in winter performance will be the maintenance and proper cleaning of the tracks, not the vehicles."

https://www.otrainfans.ca/news/op-ed...citadis-spirit
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  #11623  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2019, 5:42 PM
passwordisnt123 passwordisnt123 is offline
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Originally Posted by sseguin View Post
OP-ED on Winter Performance of the Alstom Citadis Spririt trains. Let's finally put this debate to rest... will they run in the winter? We have no doubt they will and have no reason to think otherwise.

"The biggest factor in winter performance will be the maintenance and proper cleaning of the tracks, not the vehicles."

https://www.otrainfans.ca/news/op-ed...citadis-spirit
Literally the first sentence of the op/ed:

Quote:
There has been alot of discussion...
Stopped reading right there. I don't know one way or another what to believe in terms of Spirit reliability in the winter though I generally err on the side that things will probably be mostly fine. But that op/ed doesn't exactly instill a lot of confidence if they stumble right out of the gate like that.
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  #11624  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2019, 6:19 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
You really should email this to the Joanne Chianello and show the other side of the story.
HA! I can see it now:

Bank Street Lives Ruined by OC Transpo. Ears Bleeding.

See it at 6 on CBC News.
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  #11625  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2019, 6:19 PM
kmcamp kmcamp is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
You really should email this to the Joanne Chianello and show the other side of the story.
She already has an angle when it comes to LRT. With a few questionable statements about double trains being tested, everything she says is true, but her spin on the story is always very sensationalist (cf-18 Fighter, OMG!!!!), compared to the more even tone other journalists take.

On the other hand, other media tends to be phoning it in when it comes to LRT, they end up just saying "according to the CBC...". Nobody else is digging at all.
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  #11626  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2019, 6:27 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is online now
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Originally Posted by OTownandDown View Post
But, it IS a freaking train. I mean... its a train. Nobody should have ever said 'whisper quiet'
I remember reading that the ICTS trains with their linear induction motors were sold as being so quiet you could have a conversation on board.

Nowadays the Scarborough RT- I mean Line 3 is the noisiest rust bucket I have ever taken.
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  #11627  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2019, 7:09 PM
AR-OTT AR-OTT is offline
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I wonder if hanging leafy vines down the walls of the trench could help dampen the sound a bit. It would also improve the aesthetics of the trench as well as the view from inside the train. If it adds maintenance costs to the line though to make sure they don't spread onto the tracks it wouldn't be worth it. I've seen vines growing on the walls of rail trenches in other parts of the world but in those cases the buffer between the wall and railway was much bigger.
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  #11628  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2019, 10:40 PM
Gat-Train Gat-Train is offline
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Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
'Like a CF-18 fighter jet': LRT noise disturbing condo dwellers
Promise of 'quieter neighbourhoods' hasn't come to pass for some residents near Confederation Line

Joanne Chianello · CBC News
Posted: Aug 20, 2019 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 3 hours ago



The Confederation Line trains pass through an open trench as they travel between Tunney's Pasture and Bayview stations. This is the view from a balcony at 215 Parkdale Ave.

"Quieter neighbourhoods."

That's one of the promises the City of Ottawa made about its new $2.1-billion light rail system.

The electric-powered trains would be "significantly quieter than diesel-powered buses" and offer "ultra quiet operation both inside and out," the city pledged.

But for one neighborhood along the Confederation Line, the arrival of light rail has been anything but quiet.

"It sounds like a CF-18 fighter jet," said Ghassan Hammouri, who lives on the 14th floor of 215 Parkdale Ave., a condo building perched on the northern edge of the LRT trench, just east of Tunney's Pasture station.

Indeed, with the windows open, a passing train sounds more like a passing plane. The noise rises gradually to a deafening peak that makes normal conversation, concentrating on a task or even hearing the television all but impossible, residents say.


Jane Taylor likes to enjoy a morning coffee on her balcony with her dog by her side, but says the train noise has disturbed that ritual.

"I didn't envisage that it would be so loud," said Jane Taylor, who moved into the building two years ago.

Taylor has lived by the light rail track in Edmonton, so she doesn't have a problem with urban noises in general. But when the train goes by here, "you have to stop talking because you don't understand one another," she said.

Taylor likes to have breakfast on her balcony with her dog, Rosie, but the trains, which are currently undergoing intensive testing, have been a rude interruption.

"Some people have dinner outside on their balcony, and they've stopped doing that," said said. "It destroys your calm or your concentration."

Dave Owen has lived with his wife at 215 Parkdale for 25 years. They've lived with buses trundling back and forth in front of their building for years, with no issue. But this noise is different.

"What we're actually getting is these big peaks," Owen described. "The Royal Air Force Red Arrows went by last week, and that's exactly what it sounds like — there's a roar."

Once the Confederation Line is fully operational, trains will be making 500 trips in and out of Tunney's Pasture per day. During rush hour, trains will come and go every few minutes.

Residents of 215 Parkdale have told CBC the passing trains have forced them to close their windows and, for some, disturbed their sleep.

Some have had enough.

"I'm now thinking of moving," said Hammouri, who owns two units in the building. "The only problem is, I don't want to sell this place to some unsuspecting buyer who moves in.... I cannot in good conscience sell both my units without disclosing to the buyer that, 'By the way, those trains are going to keep you awake at night.' So, I'm stuck."

It's not just the residents at 215 Parkdale who say their peace has been shattered.

According to the Mechanicsville Community Association, residents along a swath of Scott Street east of Parkdale, including the folks in a low-income seniors' residence, have complained about the noise, too.

In a letter sent to Mayor Jim Watson last week, the community association asked for mitigation measures to quiet the LRT. These include grinding the rails to make them smoother, installing sound-dampening materials along the rail bed and the trench walls, and even slowing down the trains as they pass through the area.

The city contends that, based on a report from engineering consultant Novus, the noise generated by the train falls within acceptable limits.

Residents dispute that. For one thing, the decibel levels are presented as an average over a 16-hour period, which they say doesn't reflect the frequent, sharp rises in volume that come when a train passes.

Also, the noise-level testing, which was conducted from inside a unit at the Parkdale condo building, was done with the windows closed. Residents say that doesn't accurately represent the sonic disruption, particularly in the summer months.

City officials do acknowledge the problem is exacerbated by the trench between Tunney's Pasture and Bayview stations.

According to a statement attributed to Michael Morgan, the city's director of rail construction, the trench is too narrow for the sort of track used in other parts of the 12.5-kilometre Confederation Line, which are packed with crushed stone that dampens the noise of the trains. Instead, that section of the track required resilient rail fasteners, which reduce vibration at ground level but tend to increase the noise heard above.

Morgan's email confirmed that Rideau Transit Group, the consortium building the LRT, has committed to grinding the rail after the current trial run is finished, and said that work will continue as needed.

It's not clear whether that will be enough.

A 2010 engineering report prepared for the city had called for 2.4-metre sound barriers to be installed along part of the trench between Tunney's Pasture and Bayview. However, a subsequent report said the barriers wouldn't reduce noise, so they were never installed.

"I am nervous that it won't get done, so we need to keep the pressure on," said Kitchissippi Coun. Jeff Leiper of the mitigation measures.

At the same time, he said he understands why the city may be reluctant to slow the trains to address a "localized" problem. He said he'll be watching to make sure similar issues don't occur in the second phase of the project.

The LRT will extend along the same trench to Westboro and Dominion stations, and later in a new trench along Byron Avenue.

They're going to have to do whatever it takes to make sure that this level of noise is not recreated as we further down the trench," Leiper said. "This is an unacceptable level of noise."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...-lrt-1.5245185
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Chicken Little's at it again, with extremely negative and hyperbolic spin in an article about LRT.

Has she ever even been to an air base?
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  #11629  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2019, 11:26 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by Gat-Train View Post
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Chicken Little's at it again, with extremely negative and hyperbolic spin in an article about LRT.

Has she ever even been to an air base?
Heck, just listen to the flypast on Canada Day.

To be fair, this was a quote from the resident.
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  #11630  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 1:08 AM
Gat-Train Gat-Train is offline
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Originally Posted by kmcamp View Post
I actually do believe they probably haven't reset all the way back to 0. I don't believe that's as scandalous as being made out to be depending on the conditions of the failure and I don't think safety is at risk, just convenience.

I also feel like not all the reliability issues will be solved before opening. But given how bad the buses are I'll take my chances
That's pretty terrible. Definitely would be a PR nightmare for the city if mainstream media sources published stories on it.
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  #11631  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 3:49 AM
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Kitchissippi Kitchissippi is online now
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Here’s an interesting idea: What if we cover over the section between Holland and Parkdale or Hinchey to address most of the noise issue, and move the Parkdale Market there? In addition outdoor stalls there could be a climate-controlled market building with a year-round food hall close to Tunney’s which would be great for office workers during lunchtime. It would be convenient for grabbing fresh produce on the way home too.
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  #11632  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 6:54 AM
TheMatth69 TheMatth69 is offline
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Since I was spotting the trains not too long ago, I can tell you that it makes a lot of noise when a train enters the trench. The rail technology they used + the way the trench was built + the speed at which the trains role in the trench, makes the whole thing pretty loud. It's a chain reaction… the rails are laid on concrete and not ballast (rocks) which makes the track vibration louder, the train runs at 80km/h which makes a lot of vibrations and those vibrations are carried out in a narrow open-air trench. (vibration = noise)

In the last video I made, you can see at 3:49 ( https://youtu.be/7rn42uvu-ow?t=230 ) the train transitioning from the tracks laid on ballast to the tracks laid on concrete... as soon as the train hits the concrete section the noise is multiplied by at least 3. A couple solutions would be able to fix the problem:

1) [Easy but costly] : Lay ballast one the entire section from Parkdale Avenue to Merton Street. This wouldn't cure the problem fully but would make the noise level much more acceptable for nearby residents.
I don't believe The City officials when they say that they could not lay the tracks on ballast! The trillium line has a much narrower trench, yet the tracks are laid on ballast.

2) [The most expensive & technically challenging] : Cover the trench and basically make the section an underground tunnel. This would completely resolve the problem. However, that would mean shutting down the line for at least another year which would mean continue with our unreliable bus network for the time being which is clearly not an option for The City and commuters. Plus, it would mean adding at least an extra 250M that City doesn't have.
However, such a scenario would permit the creation of a linear park along Scott's Street, which would be a plus for the neighborhood.

3) [One of the most plausible] : Install sound barriers. It wouldn't really resolve anything since the noise would only be deviated up to the nearby high-rise condos. However, for people living in houses right by the trench it would permit a temporary solution that would maybe make the noise more livable.

4) [Also plausible] : The City decides to fund high quality noise isolating windows for nearby residents. Then again it wouldn't resolve the problem completely since in Summer much of these residences would have their windows open during the day. But during colder weather it would definitely help. Plus the cost of such an operation would be significantly lower than any of the above solutions.

5) [The most likely and cheapest] : Simply reduce the speed of the trains in the trench and make them run at a speed around 50km/h. That would reduce the vibrations travelling in the tracks therefore reduce the noise in the trench significantly. However it would make the trains slower and the trip slightly longer (couple seconds).

PS: I lived in London (UK) when I was much younger, my dad was working there, and we had a high density rail line (London to East-Midlands Mainline I believe) about 600 meters from our house. During some parts of the day trains would be zooming past the neighborhood every 1 or 2 minutes. They had large scale sound barriers surrounding the neighborhood, and even with that we could hear the trains passing in the entire area. When you're not used to it, it can be quite difficult but after 1 or 2 days you just get used to it and bearly notice it. And remember London is the City in the occidental part of the world with the densest Rail network, so you're never far from a Rail or Metro line, most of them being open air.

Last edited by TheMatth69; Aug 21, 2019 at 7:14 AM.
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  #11633  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 12:21 PM
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J.OT13 J.OT13 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
Here’s an interesting idea: What if we cover over the section between Holland and Parkdale or Hinchey to address most of the noise issue, and move the Parkdale Market there? In addition outdoor stalls there could be a climate-controlled market building with a year-round food hall close to Tunney’s which would be great for office workers during lunchtime. It would be convenient for grabbing fresh produce on the way home too.
I like this idea. Part of the cost could be covered by selling off the current Parkdale Market strip. No land acquisition required by the City since they already own the air-rights. The Feds could allocate a small corner of the massive Tunney's parking lot for the Market and it might increase foot traffic between Tunney's Station and Wellington West.

For the rest of the trench, start collecting a tax levy from residents living within 500 meters of the trench (Bayview to Dominion) in order to cover the remainder.

And the line might not have to be shut-down to do this work. This sort of project, some much more complicated, have been done over active rail lines all around the world, including Canada
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  #11634  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 1:10 PM
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Badyouken Badyouken is offline
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I like it too. A covered market + outdoor stalls during summer months would be great.
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  #11635  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 1:48 PM
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Badyouken Badyouken is offline
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This reminds me of St Roch Market in New Orleans, which was reborn as a food hall and has become a bit of a meeting point in the area. A bit too upscale perhaps, but it did revitalize a humdrum area.
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  #11636  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 1:49 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Would love to cover the trench and have a farmer's market/flea market on top. Can be built with weekend closures. Whether council would support anything like that is doubtful....
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  #11637  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 1:49 PM
hwy418 hwy418 is online now
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Originally Posted by TheMatth69 View Post

1) [Easy but costly] : Lay ballast one the entire section from Parkdale Avenue to Merton Street. This wouldn't cure the problem fully but would make the noise level much more acceptable for nearby residents.
I don't believe The City officials when they say that they could not lay the tracks on ballast! The trillium line has a much narrower trench, yet the tracks are laid on ballast.

3) [One of the most plausible] : Install sound barriers. It wouldn't really resolve anything since the noise would only be deviated up to the nearby high-rise condos. However, for people living in houses right by the trench it would permit a temporary solution that would maybe make the noise more livable.
The tracks on this section are laid directly on top of a very large storm box culvert in order to meet the minimum vertical clearance under the bridges crossing the trench. There is very little to no additional buffer to add ballast here.

If considering noise barriers, you need to use an absorptive type barrier or consider using a "precast acoustic facing" product like this.
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  #11638  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 2:05 PM
Hybrid247 Hybrid247 is offline
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I'm hearing there'll be a public announcement regarding the status of trial running before the end of this week. Sounds positive. I would expect something this Friday. Fingers crossed.
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  #11639  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 2:27 PM
TransitZilla TransitZilla is offline
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Originally Posted by kmcamp View Post
I actually do believe they probably haven't reset all the way back to 0. I don't believe that's as scandalous as being made out to be depending on the conditions of the failure and I don't think safety is at risk, just convenience.

I also feel like not all the reliability issues will be solved before opening. But given how bad the buses are I'll take my chances
There was a post on reddit that provided a legitimate-sounding rebuttal to the "accusations" but it has since been deleted.

Essentially, it said that there are 3 possible outcomes to each day of testing: Pass, Repeat Day, and Restart. There are specific criteria that define what category the day's results will fall into. And apparently these criteria were defined 2 years ago and have not been changed on the fly.
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  #11640  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 2:41 PM
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I'm hearing there'll be a public announcement regarding the status of trial running before the end of this week. Sounds positive. I would expect something this Friday. Fingers crossed.
Hearing this today? If so, it's a confirmation of the Mayor's message during his media blitz last Friday, which is good.
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