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Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 5:51 PM
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The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind: ‘All of a Sudden the Money Stops Flowing’

This is about "the South" but certain cities are mentioned as examples and exceptions. Others could be. Let's approach it from that perspective: To which cities does it apply, which others may be an exception,

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By Sharon Nunn
Updated June 9, 2019 5:58 p.m. ET

NATCHEZ, Miss.—The American South spent much of the past century trying to overcome its position as the country’s poorest and least-developed region, with considerable success: By the 2009 recession it had nearly caught up economically with its northern and western neighbors.

That trend has now reversed. Since 2009, the South’s convergence has turned to divergence, as the region recorded the country’s slowest growth in output and wages, the lowest labor-force participation rate and the highest unemployment rate.

Behind the reversal: The policies that drove the region’s catch-up—relatively low taxes and low wages that attracted factories and blue-collar jobs—have proven inadequate in an expanding economy where the forces of globalization favor cities with concentrations of capital and educated workers . . . .

In part because of its legacy of racial segregation the region has, relative to others, underinvested in human capital. Thus the South, the only region to have enjoyed such a dramatic rise in the postwar period, is the only one to experience such a retreat in the past decade . . . .

Within the South, individual cities and states have had widely diverging experiences. So-called Sunbelt cities like Charlotte and Atlanta have attracted both wealthier white-collar workers and retirees from richer regions, and less-educated workers from poorer, rural areas. Thanks to these cities, the entire region rebranded itself as the New South.

And neighboring states such as Texas, with its own unique economy, often got lumped in. But unlike the rest of the South, Texas is relatively urban, with five major metro centers. It has a thriving tech sector and ample reserves of oil and gas which have boomed in recent years thanks to the fracking revolution . . . .

To diversify and lure manufacturing, southern states, starting with Arkansas in 1947, began passing right-to-work laws that weakened unions and kept taxes lower than in the wealthier North. And they spent less, especially on education: an average of $1,869 per student in 2009 dollars, in 1960, compared with $2,741 nationwide, according to the Education Department. In part, this reflected the long shadow of slavery. In the Jim Crow era white taxpayers and politicians resisted spending that benefited blacks, according to historians . . . .

But in the 1980s, globalization and automation began eliminating the sorts of lower-skilled manufacturing jobs that the South had been so successful at attracting . . . .

. . . the dearth of college-educated workers has hampered its ability to attract high-paying white-collar information and professional and business services jobs, which made up less than 8% of the workforce . . . .


https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-sou...=hp_listb_pos5
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  #2  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 6:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
This is about "the South" but certain cities are mentioned as examples and exceptions. Others could be. Let's approach it from that perspective: To which cities does it apply, which others may be an exception,


https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-sou...=hp_listb_pos5
From what I see is how they tabulate their numbers, states with higher urban pops will do better (incomes) even though income is hardly an example of practical QOL. Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina are relatively rural and relatively poorer states for any number of reasons but Florida, Texas, Tennessee, and North Carolina are not.
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Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 6:19 PM
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Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 7:10 PM
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I have a subscription to the WSJ, read the article [print version] this morning while drinking a cup of coffee.

My initial thoughts were, the South is the only region to have long term gains while the midwest is pretty much Steady Eddie.

"the South, the only region to have enjoyed such a dramatic rise in the postwar period"

And to Obadno's point, cost of living continues to skyrocket in the Northeast and West Coast, while it remains more stable in the south. Talking about nominal numbers while not factoring in CoL isn't an accurate depiction of the situation.

Also, there is a tale of two Souths. Jackson MS is quite the opposite of Charleston, not to mention Raleigh Durham, Charlotte and Atlanta. What's occurring in Memphis has little to nothing to do with Tampa.
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Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 7:32 PM
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^^I think the general argument that southern states have tried to boost their economies with low wages (= "right to work" laws) and low taxes is true. The further point that they invest less in education is less widely true but true of certain states--Georgia, on the other hand, stands out as a subsidizer of higher education for residents. And as a result, I think there's a good argument that Atlanta is an exception to the economic stagnation argument.

The general point also emphasized that "cities with concentrations of capital and educated workers" are doing best. Since Texas got a general pass in the article, I'll argue that Raleigh-Durham is another exception to economic stagnation based on this reality. With three major universities quite close to one another and a number of US headquarters or research facilities of major corporations, the "Reasearch Triangle" lives up to its name. Indeed, long term I'd put my money here rather than on Charlotte. I think Charlotte got a transient boost from the success of one company--Bank of America--and time is now moving on.
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Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 7:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
I have a subscription to the WSJ, read the article [print version] this morning while drinking a cup of coffee.

My initial thoughts were, the South is the only region to have long term gains while the midwest is pretty much Steady Eddie.

"the South, the only region to have enjoyed such a dramatic rise in the postwar period"

And to Obadno's point, cost of living continues to skyrocket in the Northeast and West Coast, while it remains more stable in the south. Talking about nominal numbers while not factoring in CoL isn't an accurate depiction of the situation.

Also, there is a tale of two Souths. Jackson MS is quite the opposite of Charleston, not to mention Raleigh Durham, Charlotte and Atlanta. What's occurring in Memphis has little to nothing to do with Tampa.
Wrong. Its all the same to these people. Its just a piece to prove conservatism sucks. Low-taxes, right to work, segregated past etc etc.

We suck here in the South, fine. Stop moving here.
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Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 8:11 PM
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Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 8:11 PM
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Wrong. Its all the same to these people. Its just a piece to prove conservatism sucks.
Interesting, being that the Wall Street Journal is a conservative publication.
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Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 9:44 PM
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Even non-unionized cheap labor manufacturing jobs in southern states can't compete against low cost foreign competition. In addition, lots of traditional southern manufacturing jobs like textile manufacturing or furniture and cabinet manufacturing have all gone off shore. Drive through small southern towns off of the interstate and you'll see an endless number of small to medium sized abandoned factories and other businesses. It is not much different from what you find in similar cities and towns in the Rust Belt. There are, of course, exceptions, but they tend to be large and medium sized cities with diverse economies.
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Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 10:04 PM
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Texas gets lumped in with the south but it's not really apart of the south. It's its own thing; we have tacos, armadillos and oil.
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Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
Wrong. Its all the same to these people. Its just a piece to prove conservatism sucks. Low-taxes, right to work, segregated past etc etc.

We suck here in the South, fine. Stop moving here.
Well, yeah. That's the Fake News narrative and it's of course totally false, fortunately most people can read behind the headlines.

There are some areas within the SUN BELT that are falling behind the overall trend and well behind the other boom cities. This is a long term trend that won't stop anytime soon, so long as the SUN BELT continues to provide housing solutions and low taxes that the established north and west coast cannot.
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Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
Interesting, being that the Wall Street Journal is a conservative publication.
I always hear liberals say this, which probably means they are in the middle.

In any case, a quick look at the writer's twitter proves, without a reasonable doubt, she is not a conservative by any means.
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Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
Wrong. Its all the same to these people. Its just a piece to prove conservatism sucks. Low-taxes, right to work, segregated past etc etc.

We suck here in the South, fine. Stop moving here.
Because the Wall Street Journal is well-known for its conservative-bashing--and this was on the front page.

Come on--you can do better than that. And as I said, they give one of the most conservative states, Texas, a pass in the article.

I personally love the South and it's agreat place to vacation or retire. But if I we're a 20-something with a new STEM degree from almost anywhere, there are very few southern cities where I'd look for employment.

Does anybody care to mention any where I might look and what industries/employers are there?

Last edited by Pedestrian; Jun 10, 2019 at 11:57 PM.
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Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 11:42 PM
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Texas gets lumped in with the south but it's not really apart of the south. It's its own thing; we have tacos, armadillos and oil.
East Texas--the most east part next to Louisiana--is awfully "south".

It's about where the southern cotton economy once ruled (and, if you wish, where cactus lives), and that includes far east Texas. But again, the article I started this with rules Texas out from the general rule it is espousing, giving it credit for a thriving tech economy in parts and a thriving energy economy in other parts as well as great education, medical and tech-focused institutions. The importance of the latter is that Texas youth, wherever they are educated, can come home to work and earn a good living, using their educations. That isn't so true of other southern cities and states.
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Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 11:49 PM
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I always hear liberals say this, which probably means they are in the middle.
If you believe the Murdoch-owned Journal, the paper of record for Conservatives, is "in the middle", you have a very skewed perspective.

Anything short of fascism or revolutionary rhetoric will be "in the middle".
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Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 12:00 AM
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If you believe the Murdoch-owned Journal, the paper of record for Conservatives, is "in the middle", you have a very skewed perspective.

Anything short of fascism or revolutionary rhetoric will be "in the middle".
As usual, Crawford, you have no discernment. The Journal is in near-agreement with liberals when it comes to something like immigration: They favor mass in-migration of low wage workers just like the Democrats.

But on other issues they are indeed conservative.

But let's try to get past blaming the messenger here and talk about the message. Where in the South has a thriving globalist economy that's only gotten better since the Great Recession?
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Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 12:18 AM
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If you believe the Murdoch-owned Journal, the paper of record for Conservatives, is "in the middle", you have a very skewed perspective.

Anything short of fascism or revolutionary rhetoric will be "in the middle".
Fake News?
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Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 1:09 AM
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Everything is Every Thing

This thread and these comments are rather amusing in their attempt to put things in a box.
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Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 2:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
Because the Wall Street Journal is well-known for its conservative-bashing--and this was on the front page.

Come on--you can do better than that. And as I said, they give one of the most conservative states, Texas, a pass in the article.

I personally love the South and it's agreat place to vacation or retire. But if I we're a 20-something with a new STEM degree from almost anywhere, there are very few southern cities where I'd look for employment.

Does anybody care to mention any where I might look and what industries/employers are there?
Alright, but it really is just saying conservative economics and governmental policies suck. So my response would be:

Alight, well stop moving down here then!

I will hold my judgement of the source from now on
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Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 2:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
Because the Wall Street Journal is well-known for its conservative-bashing--and this was on the front page.

Come on--you can do better than that. And as I said, they give one of the most conservative states, Texas, a pass in the article.

I personally love the South and it's agreat place to vacation or retire. But if I we're a 20-something with a new STEM degree from almost anywhere, there are very few southern cities where I'd look for employment.

Does anybody care to mention any where I might look and what industries/employers are there?
Fair enough, and honestly, I dislike people 'killin the messenger.'

In any case, the point seems to be that conservative economics and governmental policies don't work. My response to that is fine, but could so many people stop moving here.

And really, and this is purely me just thinking outside the box, I don't think places like Alabama, Arkansas(which I know well), or Mississippi want the change that has happened to Texas. Sometimes people pick different things over purely economic rationale.

I had a Saudi come speak to my M.E class and he said something I will never forget. He said that he, and many people in Saudi Arabia, can't wait until the country runs out of oil. They dislike foreign influence and decadence and would rather have a more traditional country like before. I don't know how many people actually think like this guy, but I assume its a decent amount. Economic and "progress" achievements are sometimes secondary compared to other wants and needs. Not saying I fully endorse this viewpoint, but I think its important to note.
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