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  #881  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2008, 9:46 PM
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Originally Posted by fengshui View Post
I think this is more a reflection on New Flyer not getting it right the first time (not unexpected either, these hybrid units are quite complex and they are one of the first to market). Volvo hasn't yet introduced their hybrid, it is coming in 2009. Volvo being based in Sweden, there is a good chance it will have been engineered for cold weather.

Of course, if we were talking rail rapid transit, there are so many other northern cities that run transit and rapid transit systems outside. Places like Helsinki, Moscow, Oslo, Stockholm, St. Petersburg, etc.
The winter climate of places like Helsinki, Oslo and Stockholm is nothing like Winnipeg's. Stockholm's climate is more like Vancouver's. I don't even think Moscow is quite as cold in the winter as Winnipeg is, but I'll let some of you eager beavers ferret out the stats on that (to mix my animal metaphors).
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  #882  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2008, 10:28 PM
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Climate is no excuse why Winnipeg shouldn't get an LRT system.

Edmonton has LRT, and has a winter climate similar to Winnipeg, and it works just fine. There seems to be a ton of those with every little excuse why Winnipeg "can't" or "shouldn't" implement rapid transit, yet smaller cities such as Saskatoon, Spokane and KW are already preparing for the future developing plans to build rapid transit.

There will always be those that poo-poo the idea for whatever reason trying to keep the city in the darkages as a "small centre", but I hold the faith that eventually Winnipeg will jump into the 21th century.

It's time for change, and Winnipeg deserves the best!
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  #883  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2008, 12:04 AM
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winnipeg should spend the money on street cars and have the lrt as express routes....
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  #884  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2008, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Greco Roman View Post
Climate is no excuse why Winnipeg shouldn't get an LRT system.

Edmonton has LRT, and has a winter climate similar to Winnipeg, and it works just fine. There seems to be a ton of those with every little excuse why Winnipeg "can't" or "shouldn't" implement rapid transit, yet smaller cities such as Saskatoon, Spokane and KW are already preparing for the future developing plans to build rapid transit.

There will always be those that poo-poo the idea for whatever reason trying to keep the city in the darkages as a "small centre", but I hold the faith that eventually Winnipeg will jump into the 21th century.

It's time for change, and Winnipeg deserves the best!
Amen!
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  #885  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2008, 3:26 AM
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Hey I know that city planning student. Anyway I hope more programs for densifying neighborhoods in and around downtown into rich urban environments that will help implement the first leg of rapid transit. One would hope lrt/subway would start from the heart of downtown and work outwards. And please lets not do BRT as our only mode of rapid transit. Perhaps let BRT be a feeder to the lrt.


_______________
PERSPECTIVE: The bus stops here
Deadline nears on rapid-transit decision
By: Bartley Kives / Winnipeg Free Press

Updated: June 15 at 11:54 AM CDT

Print Article E-mail Article Winnipeg's political leaders have just over a month to decide whether rapid transit will be part of the city's future.

Mayor Sam Katz has given himself a July 18 deadline to announce how he and Premier Gary Doer plan to spend $17.9 million worth of federal transportation dollars.

In March, Ottawa handed Manitoba the $17.9-million kitty with no strings attached, provided the cash gets spent on alternative forms of transportation.

Ever since, the mayor and the premier have been talking behind closed doors about the cash, which could be used to upgrade Winnipeg Transit, build new bicycle and walking paths - or start building the southwest Winnipeg bus rapid transit corridor that has been the biggest albatross around Katz's neck since he was first elected four years ago.

Winnipeggers who pay attention to transit know the back-story: One of Katz's first acts as mayor was cancelling a BRT corridor and persuading the federal Liberals to divert $43 million of gasoline-tax money to community centres.

Late in 2004, Katz placed Transcona Coun. Russ Wyatt in charge of a rapid transit task force that eventually wound up recommending the creation of - wait for it - a bus rapid transit corridor.

But the idea has languished on the back burner at city hall, revived only by the rising price of oil and subsequent rising interest in alternative modes of transportation on the part of politicians and voters alike. City council has upped spending on bike trails from $200,000 in 2006 to $3.2 million this year and has also started socking away $2.7 million toward a rapid-transit system.

On Broadway, Doer has also been lukewarm to the notion of public transit. But that was before the province pledged to meet the original Kyoto targets by cutting Manitoba's greenhouse gas emissions by three megatonnes over the next four years.

Doer now acknowledges rapid transit could help catapult Manitoba toward Kyoto compliance, but remains cagey about his priority list for the federal transit cash.

"Transit itself, a person who takes the car too much, is helpful toward the Kyoto target," said Doer, admitting only that the city and province would like to spend the federal kitty on a combination of big-ticket items and smaller projects.


It's unclear whether the province will add more of its own cash to the $17.9 million pledged by Ottawa. But even if Doer doubles up on the federal contribution, $35.8 million won't buy Winnipeg a BRT corridor.

The first leg of a busway from downtown to Jubilee Avenue will cost an estimated $70 million. The city would have to borrow millions to pay for the entire line, and borrowing isn't a popular practice at city hall these days.

"A couple of decades ago, the city got into trouble because all we did was borrow money. The smartest thing we did was stop and we've reduced our debt significantly. There is more money available to us today as a result of the fact we aren't servicing major debt," Katz said.

The mayor said it's possible Winnipeg could borrow money to pay for "a project that is going to have a phenomenal economic, positive impact" on the city, but would not say whether rapid transit would constitute such a project.

However, he did entertain the possibility of a new floodway-like authority to oversee transit in Winnipeg and the surrounding capital region, as the city's transportation needs are intertwined with those of communities such as Selkirk, St. Andrews and East St. Paul.

The bottom line is that Katz and Doer really have only two choices: Use all or part of the federal transportation cash as seed money for some form of big, bold transit initiative, or divide the kitty into smaller pots of money and spend it on a variety of less ambitious projects.

Both strategies have pros and cons, as the mayor and premier must balance fiscal conservatism, environmentalism and even parochial ward and riding concerns.

Their decision is coming within 33 days, when city council shuts down for the summer. In the meantime, here's what Katz and Doer are considering:


BUS RAPID TRANSIT


The plan: A dedicated bus corridor from downtown Winnipeg to the University of Manitoba, roughly parallel to Pembina Highway.

The price tag: Approximately $70 million to build one leg of the corridor, from downtown to Jubilee Avenue. Likely more than $150 million to build the entire line.

Pros: Both the Rapid Transit Task Force (2005) and Direction To The Future (2000) identified the southwest bus corridor as Winnipeg's No. 1 transit priority, given the volume of vehicle and bus traffic along Pembina Highway. A bike path would be built alongside the busway. And if the corridor goes all the way to the U of M, a spur line to Waverley West could take some of the transportation pressure off Kenaston Boulevard.

Cons: Even if the province matches the federal money, Winnipeg would still have to borrow to complete the line. People who don't live in southwest Winnipeg may resent the spending. And critics will argue the line will only improve transit service, not increase the number of people who use public transit.


CONVENTIONAL TRANSIT


The plan: Upgrade existing Winnipeg Transit infrastructure by buying more buses, installing user-friendly transit technology and making on-street improvements such as more diamond lanes and better stations - all of which are already part of a six-year city plan that's taking too long to implement.

The price tag: As much or as little as the city and province want to spend, on top of the $142-million Winnipeg Transit upgrade announced in 2006.

Pros: It's easy to top up or augment a Winnipeg Transit upgrade that's already in progress, and no borrowing is required.

Cons: Critics will argue the city and province squandered an opportunity to do something much more bold with the $17.9-million gift from the federal government.


BIKE TRAILS


The plan: More bicycle and pedestrian commuter paths in Winnipeg.

The price tag: Again, as much or as little as the Doer and Katz want to spend, on top of the city's $3.2-million annual budget for active-transportation corridors.

Pros: Politicians get a lot of bang for their infrastructure buck when they build bike trails, which are relatively cheap, compared to roads and bridges. Commuter trails also reduce congestion on roads, assuming they're built in the right place. And they satisfy a trio of converging concerns: the rising price of gas, the health benefits of self-propelled commuting and the environmental benefits of leaving cars at home.

Cons: Transit advocates will revolt if the city and province blow the entire $17.9-million transportation kitty on bike trails, given the opportunity to use the cash as seed money for something bigger and bolder. As well, only a minority of Winnipeg commuters walk or bike to work or school - and people with mobility issues will benefit little from trail upgrades.


LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT


The plan: A light-rail corridor from downtown Winnipeg to the University of Manitoba.

The price tag: Unknown, but assumed to be upwards of $500 million.

Pros: Trains are sexier than bus corridors, and could attract more riders. Mayor Sam Katz likes the idea of LRT, although he does not believe Winnipeg can afford it. However, busways can always be converted to LRT lines.

Cons: Given the price and the lack of density in Winnipeg, nobody in power is seriously considering this option.

bartley.kives@freepress.mb.ca

-- With files from Mary Agnes Welch


BRT boon to cyclists
Curt Hull

Bus rapid transit in Winnipeg would make my cycle commute easier. If you think the two have nothing to do with each other -- read on.

I use my bike as my main mode of transportation. How could rapid transit benefit me?

As we deal with higher gas prices and get serious about combating climate change, more people will ride their bicycles. A lot more people will be able to make this choice once we have bike routes to work or shopping that are interconnected throughout the city, efficient and safe -- for many that means segregated from traffic.

Rapid transit has the potential to produce part of the network of bicycle routes we need. The 2005 Rapid Transit Task Force Report recommends "active transportation commuter paths be integrated into dedicated busways and, where possible, into on-street improvements." This means the busway close to Pembina Highway would include a bikeway.

This bikeway would overcome some of Winnipeg cyclists' biggest choke-point issues. Cyclists usually choose routes that are as direct and comfortable as possible. This often means residential streets. But at bridges, underpasses and major intersections, we have no choice but to deal with traffic. Those are choke points. The first leg of the proposed BRT, the rapid transit corridor proposed for Pembina, would get us around or over the Red River, Confusion Corner, the south Osborne underpass and the Jubilee underpass.

Anyone who has been caught at a bridge, an underpass or Confusion Corner at rush hour understands why these are called choke points.

I don't commute down Pembina, so what good is that to me?

I hope there will be access points onto the bikeway so I can use a portion of it. But even if there are not, as long as Winnipeggers use the rapid transit system and people use the bikeways, we will reduce the amount of car traffic, especially downtown.


Enticing youth with transit
Ezra Bridgman

Developing a bus rapid transit system would -- apart from helping the environment and revitalizing downtown -- be a great help to Winnipeg's youth and students, in the view of this high school student.

Traditionally, youth rely on public transit much more than their elders, due to lower incomes. Biking is a viable option for youth, but it can be a frustrating and dirty ordeal in winter.

Having a better system encourages youth to use the many resources available downtown, get involved with the city's youth programs and enjoy more freedom.

From a student perspective, BRT would provide that essential transportation to school or university, making access to the higher education more efficient and enjoyable. For me, the difficulty in getting to the University of Manitoba was a deciding factor in choosing the University of Winnipeg.

A final point in favour of BRT for Winnipeg is the desirability it adds. Young people face the difficult decision of whether to stay in Winnipeg or move away. It is in all our best interests to attract and keep youth here while also attracting others from around the world. To do that, Winnipeg must be a desirable city. Having a rapid transit system won't always be a determining factor in enticing youth to stay, but it does put Winnipeg on par with other modern cities.


Quiet joys of the bus
Stephanie Voyce

Many consider bus riding an unpleasant and aggravating experience. I disagree.
Picture this: You're running late on a Monday morning. You could be sitting in traffic on Pembina Highway, cursing under your breath as you inch forward. Or you could be sitting on the bus, catching up on some reading. You've just gained half an hour of down time!


Being on a bus forces you into a place we rarely find ourselves in this go-go-go society. How many of us are guilty of multi-tasking just about every moment of our waking hours? But the bus gives us the liberty of doing nothing if we wish.

Your mind can transition from the stresses of work or school to a place of calm and introspection. It's that healthy mind space where we can release the struggles of the day and prepare for the tasks and opportunities ahead.

But the bus isn't just some meditative vessel. It can also be quite the social hub. For those who like to people-watch, it is an opportunity extraordinaire. Generally speaking, it is rude to stare at strangers, but somehow it's OK on the bus. There's an unwritten rule that makes it OK to watch the little girl in front of you making finger angels on the frozen bus windows, even to sneak a smile or two at her.

So as we continue to contemplate bus rapid transit for our city, let's not forget the quiet joys of bus travel. It is one of those hidden secrets of bus riders. For $2.25, maybe it's time to break out of the segregated space of our cars. Who knows? There might actually be some relaxation and pleasant human interaction to be found in it.


Too busy to bus
Marli Sakiyama

I live an active lifestyle. I am a master's of city planning student at the University of Manitoba, an intern at the West End Business Improvement Zone, a dance teacher in two different suburbs, a volunteer all over the city and a frequenter of West End and downtown restaurants and shops.

With my busy schedule, I need transportation that gets me from A to B to C in one day. What is bus rapid transit (BRT) worth to me? BRT can help me maintain that busy schedule and have an environmentally sustainable lifestyle.

When I lived with my parents in Charleswood, taking the bus was not a realistic option. Service was slow, sporadic and a few transfers were needed to get anywhere. A car was the best mode of transportation.

Now that I live in Crescentwood, transit is a better option. During school months, the bus ride takes about 45 minutes.

However, when I need to go to school, work and volunteer all in one day, that's a problem. West End BIZ is in one direction, teaching is in two separate directions and volunteering is all over the map. I cannot ride my bike all over Winnipeg, as there is a lack of bike paths.

On those days, I drive my Hyundai Accent (which takes $50 to fill at 29 miles per gallon). But, like other car owners, I am concerned about rising gas prices and environmental sustainability.

When I think of the wise words of Gandhi, "Be the change you want to see in the world," I am disappointed that I must drive a car as my main method of transportation. I want to change my lifestyle, and I ask myself how? BRT can help me and others lead a more sustainable lifestyle.


Bring back the buzz
Craig Medwyduk

As a kid, I remember taking the bus downtown from my home in Charleswood.
Downtown was the hub for young people. We would get on the bus for the hour-long trip, go to the arcade, catch a movie, listen to records, then make the trip back home.


As the years went by, downtown changed, becoming less and less like the place I remember. And Winnipeg's urban sprawl makes the trip from the suburbs tedious. Downtown businesses and restaurants feel it, and the result can be measured in closed storefronts.

You seldom hear anyone talk about the experience I had, coming downtown to hang out for the day. But still, many of us remember what downtown was and what it still could -- and should -- be.

I believe in downtown. I know it can come back. And I believe it's already begun to.

That's a big part of why we moved our studio, Guppy Graphic Design, to Graham Avenue in 2005. We love it here. Our downtown location helped us start a clothing shop in our studio. We see people from every walk of life, and we get to enjoy the buzz of being in the heart of the city. That urban culture I loved as a kid is still alive; we just need to give it a kick-start.

People make choices about where they shop and play based on key issues: convenience, speed of delivery, parking, fuel costs and safety. Rapid transit addresses all that.

Winnipeg needs to be more progressive; right now, we are behind on transportation. So many other cities across North America have implemented rapid transit with roaring success. It's time for Winnipeg to get moving with rapid transit.


Unclog the commute
Calvin Polet

I commute by car regularly to my job downtown from my home in the suburbs. I often ride my bicycle to work in the summer, and I use the bus to get to work maybe 10 times a year, but most of the time I drive. I intend to continue that drive, and the creation of a bus rapid transit, or BRT, system will do little to get me to ride the bus to work.

Yet I am a strong supporter of a BRT system for Winnipeg. So, what's in it for me?

Apart from cleaner air, fewer greenhouse gas emissions, development of a compact urban form that consistently develops alongside rapid transit systems, the statement of progress developing such a system makes about our city and the potential boon for our bus manufacturing sector, the creation of a BRT system means an easier commute for me.

If our transit system receives anywhere near the increased ridership experienced by other municipalities that have installed BRT, there will be a demonstrable impact on the number of cars and trucks on the road.

I know critics say Winnipeggers won't change their driving habits. I don't believe that, but let's assume for a moment that unreasonable assumption is correct. The fact remains that removing most of the buses from the road to the dedicated BRT road will ease traffic flow, thus improving my commute.

If we do not create a BRT system, with the planned development of the next few years, Pembina Highway will become a parking lot.


Freeing time for family
Adnan Mirza

There are better ways to spend time than driving a commute, especially for this father who lives in River Heights.

A few years ago, I worked in Chicago for two months. I spent more than three hours a day commuting. The time I spent looking for a parking spot and walking to my destination was frustrating. Taking the transit system was far more efficient. More importantly, it gave me the chance to get work done on my way to and from work. By the time I got home, I could spend all my time with my family.

Likewise, when I lived in Vancouver, taking the SkyTrain was by far the most cost-effective and convenient way to travel. I got to work more quickly and with much less stress. It took half the time to reach downtown Vancouver by SkyTrain.

I enjoy the chance to read the morning paper on my way to work or catch up on e-mail so I can dive right into my work projects when I get to the office. I also enjoy not having to worry about a parking spot when I am on my way to a Bombers game or, more importantly, my son's soccer game. I wouldn't want to miss a great play.

All our lives can be made better if the hours that might be otherwise spent in our cars are instead spent attending a child's hockey game, making appointments or being with our families.

I am all for a rapid transit system in our city.
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  #886  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2008, 4:33 AM
Greco Roman Greco Roman is offline
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I am literally praying to God that Winnipeg steps up to the LRT plate and delivers. Again, enough with the excuses why we "can't"; it's that stupid backwards Winnipeg mentality that really inhibits the potential of this city.
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  #887  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2008, 5:41 PM
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Bus 702

I spotted a new New Flyer WT bus # 702 around 11.30 AM today.

It's got a GM RTS-like front-end.

Nicer than the square boxes Winnipeg's been getting in the past 8 years.

Does anyone know how many we're supposed to get? Usually it's in lots of 30 at a time.
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  #888  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2008, 9:58 PM
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4 on the road so far, 33 in all. Mechanically the same as the last batch, with the addition (lack of removal?) of air conditioning.
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  #889  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2008, 10:36 PM
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Thunder Bay's recent buses are air conditioned as well. It must have become cheaper.

I don't think they would purposely remove air conditioning.
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  #890  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2008, 1:49 AM
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20 of them
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  #891  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2008, 2:17 AM
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  #892  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2008, 2:51 AM
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The new Novabuses look surprised. The old ones looked like they were in a state of orgasmic glee. I hate them.


One of Thunder Bay's newest buses, taken by this guy.

It's a big improvement on the old Newflyers though. Welcome to the 1990s, Newflyer! We can make vehicles with curves now!
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  #893  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2008, 2:57 AM
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That's one happy bus!
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  #894  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2008, 3:01 AM
Greco Roman Greco Roman is offline
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That's one happy bus!
Now if we could only one happy LRT train gliding down Winnipeg's new rapid transit system.............................
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  #895  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2008, 3:32 AM
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20 of them
I thought it was around 33 of the 40 ft. buses, and 20 of the 60 ft. articulated buses (in which that chance of getting those buses now are slim to none).

Anyways, I'm glad to see those new buses on the road. New Flyer (or Winnipeg Transit) is getting nicer looking buses now. It's too bad they stopped marketing/building the Invero buses. They were nice too, but I heard so many problems about them.
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  #896  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2008, 12:48 PM
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Transit fails 'bendy bus' on winter road test, emissions standards
By: Bartley Kives

Updated: June 17 at 12:25 AM CDT

Print Article E-mail Article Winnipeg Transit is looking for a new extra-long ride after its prototype "bendy bus" failed winter road tests.

Transit had been planning to buy 20 diesel-electric hybrid articulated buses at a cost of $27 million since February 2006, when the public utility unveiled a six-year, $142-million upgrade.

But the order will soon be cancelled because a prototype delivered by manufacturer New Flyer did not prove to be as energy-efficient as the city expected.

Now, Mayor Sam Katz wants Winnipeg Transit to find some form of new ride with far more seats than conventional low-floor buses.

"I like the idea of having longer buses that can move more people," Katz said Monday.

Although the mayor said he was disappointed Winnipeg's first articulated bus failed to be as green as transit officials had hoped, the utility is already looking at other forms of technology. And longer buses are still on top of the list.

The utility is also in the midst of purchasing 144 new conventional buses over the course of six years at a total cost of $65 million.

Articulated buses are used in several North American cities, including Ottawa, which is almost as cold as Winnipeg during the winter and usually endures much more snow.

But the model tested here during the past winter failed to save as much fuel as Winnipeg Transit expected, city spokeswoman Pam Sveinson said.

Greenhouse gas emissions also proved to be higher than expected, defeating the purpose of spending more city money on an energy-efficient vehicle.Winnipeg Transit plans to release more details about its bendy-bus road test before council breaks for the summer.

During the same time frame, Katz and Manitoba Premier Gary Doer plan to make a decision regarding how to spend a $17.9 million federal kitty earmarked for alternative transportation.

Katz said it is unlikely the city will funnel the $27 million earmarked for diesel-electric hybrids into a bus rapid transit system.

"If we don't get these type of buses, we still need more buses," he said, noting Winnipeg Transit has no choice but to upgrade its fleet.

bartley.kives@freepress.mb.ca
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  #897  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2008, 12:48 AM
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when I was on that bus a couiple of times I found it conered quite nicely in the winter especially at the tight intersection of vaugh and graham.

anyhow that is not the issue the industry has not made a real fuel efficient engines for class 3 to class 1 vehicles, so why don't we already have a skytrain/subway system that runs on our cheap hydro. Partner up with MB hydro and the province and get this baby going already.

________________________________________________________________

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Originally Posted by wags_in_the_peg View Post
Transit fails 'bendy bus' on winter road test, emissions standards
By: Bartley Kives

Updated: June 17 at 12:25 AM CDT

Print Article E-mail Article Winnipeg Transit is looking for a new extra-long ride after its prototype "bendy bus" failed winter road tests.

Transit had been planning to buy 20 diesel-electric hybrid articulated buses at a cost of $27 million since February 2006, when the public utility unveiled a six-year, $142-million upgrade.

But the order will soon be cancelled because a prototype delivered by manufacturer New Flyer did not prove to be as energy-efficient as the city expected.

Now, Mayor Sam Katz wants Winnipeg Transit to find some form of new ride with far more seats than conventional low-floor buses.

"I like the idea of having longer buses that can move more people," Katz said Monday.

Although the mayor said he was disappointed Winnipeg's first articulated bus failed to be as green as transit officials had hoped, the utility is already looking at other forms of technology. And longer buses are still on top of the list.

The utility is also in the midst of purchasing 144 new conventional buses over the course of six years at a total cost of $65 million.

Articulated buses are used in several North American cities, including Ottawa, which is almost as cold as Winnipeg during the winter and usually endures much more snow.

But the model tested here during the past winter failed to save as much fuel as Winnipeg Transit expected, city spokeswoman Pam Sveinson said.

Greenhouse gas emissions also proved to be higher than expected, defeating the purpose of spending more city money on an energy-efficient vehicle.Winnipeg Transit plans to release more details about its bendy-bus road test before council breaks for the summer.

During the same time frame, Katz and Manitoba Premier Gary Doer plan to make a decision regarding how to spend a $17.9 million federal kitty earmarked for alternative transportation.

Katz said it is unlikely the city will funnel the $27 million earmarked for diesel-electric hybrids into a bus rapid transit system.

"If we don't get these type of buses, we still need more buses," he said, noting Winnipeg Transit has no choice but to upgrade its fleet.

bartley.kives@freepress.mb.ca
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  #898  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2008, 6:02 AM
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Another reason to put LRT rapid transit trains underground is that if you have them running at grade they can cross paths with vehicles who are oblivious to the train being there.

Houston, we have a problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV2rdGX4JYc
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  #899  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2008, 6:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj_wpg View Post
Another reason to put LRT rapid transit trains underground is that if you have them running at grade they can cross paths with vehicles who are oblivious to the train being there.

Houston, we have a problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV2rdGX4JYc
Ouch. Bad planning to begin with.

Then again, once it's built, the rules associated to that system must be be followed. There were arrows marked on the road clearly marking turning towards the rail (left hand turns) are prohibited. Clearly the drivers failed to see the signage, and what do they get? A smack upside the head with a train!! With that, those people get no sympathy from me because they fail to pay attention! In that case, they deserved to get hit by that train!

Which leads back to isolating rapid transit systems from road vehicles as much as possible in the first place.
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  #900  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2008, 11:19 AM
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Aylmer Aylmer is offline
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Or having people obey signing.

Keep the loonies of the road!
(that's why I don't drive!)

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