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  #1  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2011, 2:54 PM
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VMP - Should be a full Freeway ASAP

HI all - new post form someone who has long wanted to see London grow and reach its potential. I (and apparently a few others) feel this is so important to the city's future that it deserves its own thread.

I am aghast at the notion we should wait decades for the first interchanges and until the 2070's until this is done. Some bureaucrat assessing that we don't need it until London's population is around 675,000?

I give you Lubbock, Texas, a college town with great medical facilities - just over 200,000 (with no appreciable metro area beyond):

Map of Lubbock with Freeways


I-27 runs N-S, a full freeway ring road (with service road on both sides all the way around - and dedicated U-Turn lands at every exit), and now the new Marsha Sharpe freeway, running SW-NE past the University, football and basketball stadiums and the W-E through the N part of downtown (that section should be completed this year).

We blew it in the 70's when the province was going to pay, but London needs to catch up! As soon as possible! And start setting aside land for a northern E-W route, and a western N-S route that should follow.

The age of the car and truck is FAR from over (sorry Joni).
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  #2  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2011, 5:17 PM
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I think part of the problem was also that the 401 was built too far south. Back when it was built in the London area (1957) it was entirely in Westminster Township, significantly south of the city limits which at the time were near Base Line Road.
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  #3  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2011, 5:39 PM
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Good idea for a thread.

London has all but lost it's ability to build freeways. Our last shot is the VMP.

Regarding a full ring road, city politicians said in a meeting earlier this week that the last chance to plan the route was back in the 1980's. If we're very lucky, we might get another north-south corridor in the west, but it will be built first as a 2-lane expressway just like when Airport Road/Highway 100 was first built.

Regarding the 401, the original 400-series highways were designed to completely bypass urban centers. Back then they didn't expect massive suburban sprawl that's why the 401 is now an urban freeway in Toronto. In London it still manages to carry out it's original design purpose to a good extent, and the 402 does this even better.
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  #4  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2011, 11:34 PM
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It's not surprising seeing a city in Texas with a good infrastructure that has relatively similar population to London.

As much I and others would like London to have a Ring Road or more comprehensive freeway system, nothing will happen without senior level government help.

In the US, the federal government is very generous and gives massive transfers for highway funding, $10s of billions a year. In Canada the feds have moreless done nothing, except for spur of the moment make work programs, like the Conservatives recent stimulus spending, or The Trans-Canada Highway.

In Ontario, it seems most freeway funding is for the benefit of the GTA area. All proposed project have to do with making it easier for commuters to get around, whether its 404 extension, Mid-Peninsula Corridor, Bradford Bypass, its all GTA specific.

Even when the province seems to give more transit funding you get everyone screaming for Public transit, which isn't as useful as for attracting business as better private transit would.

Fontana seems committed to making the VMP a freeway though. Being a former federal Minister and my perception as a more active mayor than AMDB hopefully it puts some pressure on our provincial ministers. We have 2 cabinet members in London, and with an election this year hopefully could turn up the rhetoric on the need for a freeway VMP for London sooner than 2073! Otherwise whats the point of supporting these ministers if they will allow London to sink further into mediocrity.
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  #5  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2011, 12:35 AM
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I am neither for nor against converting the VMP to a freeway.

But could someone please clarify specifically what the benefits are of a VMP freeway vs. VMP in its current state?

Also...if senior levels of government were to offer funding for transportation infrastructure, why would it be preferable to spend the money on road expansion vs. public transit?
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  #6  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2011, 3:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haljackey View Post
Good idea for a thread.

London has all but lost it's ability to build freeways. Our last shot is the VMP.

Regarding a full ring road, city politicians said in a meeting earlier this week that the last chance to plan the route was back in the 1980's. If we're very lucky, we might get another north-south corridor in the west, but it will be built first as a 2-lane expressway just like when Airport Road/Highway 100 was first built.
Bull-bloody-shit. It may be true that the last politicians to have a spine of some sort were around in the 1980s, but all that blocks these projects now is a lack of willpower and a subconcious desire for London to look and act like a town of 40,000, rather than the city of 400,000. The problem is not a lack of space or appropriate routes, it's anti-development planning from a bunch of hicks who somehow managed to be in charge of our city.

Right now, the southern portion of London's ring road is already completed. The eastern portion only needs to be turned into a limited-access expressway, and it too will be finished. The Westdel Bourne is straight, flat and free of development, making it the perfect candidate for a western corridor. The tricky part is the North; by the time we get a coherent plan going, the area between Medway and Sunningdale Roads will already be mostly built up (I'm assuming the city is able to annex and expand). Any expressway corridor would have to go between Eight Mile Road and Medway. To avoid future connection problems the city should buy up the needed land between Clark, Kilally and Sunningdale and reserve it as an expressway corridor.

Not so hard. All it takes are some planners, politicians and bureaucrats with basic planning and coordination skills.
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  #7  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2011, 3:41 AM
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QUOTE=Wharn;5169808]Bull-bloody-shit......Not so hard. All it takes are some planners, politicians and bureaucrats with basic planning and coordination skills.[/QUOTE]

If you knew 1/10th of what you speak, you'd be dangerous.
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  #8  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2011, 5:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Snark View Post
If you knew 1/10th of what you speak, you'd be dangerous.
And what would you mean by that? If you see something wrong with this proposal, then please deconstruct it and criticize it directly.

For the record, Haljackey, I was attacking the claims of the municipal politicians; not your assessment of their claims. I apologize for any perceived animosity.

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Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac View Post
We have 2 cabinet members in London, and with an election this year hopefully could turn up the rhetoric on the need for a freeway VMP for London sooner than 2073! Otherwise whats the point of supporting these ministers if they will allow London to sink further into mediocrity.
This is the source of my anger. This city is not growing as fast as it should be, and the obvious reason is the woefully outdated and inadequate transportation system. I wish Londoners wouldn't just blindly re-elect MPs, and instead send them to Ottawa with some expectation of funding. Right now, the $400 million that could build and landscape this ring road is slated for use on a goddamn hockey arena in Quebec City.

Last edited by Wharn; Feb 18, 2011 at 6:00 PM.
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  #9  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2011, 12:38 AM
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RE: Lubbock

Keep in mind the Interstate system itself was also a post-war "make work" project (not a defense project as we've been led to believe). The US is no better than we are when it comes to building highways: sure they have lots of freeways, but look at the level of sprawl that has brought. Not to mention their road infrastructure in many places is crumbling compared to ours.
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  #10  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2011, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by van Hemessen View Post
RE: Lubbock

Keep in mind the Interstate system itself was also a post-war "make work" project (not a defense project as we've been led to believe). The US is no better than we are when it comes to building highways: sure they have lots of freeways, but look at the level of sprawl that has brought. Not to mention their road infrastructure in many places is crumbling compared to ours.
IIRC Lubbock only got 1-27 in the late 60's - early 70's, so it was a rather late entry to the IS system. I also believe it is part of the 'Ports to Plains Corridor' concept that would eventually extend US 287 (mostly divided Expressway with some Freeway) to Denver. Not sure if it will ever happen though.

Ever been to Lubbock? LAND is not an issue!! Ergo, sprawl is not an issue.

BTW I personally prefer reasonable sprawl to aggressive in-fill. As kid we used to be able to easily walk/bike to spacious in-city woods and green space. All that is now in-fill.
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  #11  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2011, 7:35 PM
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Rather see investment on the west-side. It takes 20 - 25 minutes to get from Hyde Park/Oakridge down to the 401.
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  #12  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2011, 2:51 PM
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^my thoughts as well. So that the trucks get to the 401 5-10 minutes faster? Is that make-or-break? It is in the West and North of the city that the infrastructure is most woeful.
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  #13  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2011, 5:01 PM
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Originally Posted by van Hemessen View Post
And again I ask: why is upgrading the VMP so critical? Is it more critical than, say, LRT or improved public transit?
All of London's infrastructure suffers from underinvestment. It's best to start upgrading the bits that are already mostly built and for which you have a coherent plan. Additionally, though LRT may benefit students and those in the service sector, it provides little or no benefit to the manufacturing sector, which still makes up the bulk of the economy.

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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
^my thoughts as well. So that the trucks get to the 401 5-10 minutes faster? Is that make-or-break? It is in the West and North of the city that the infrastructure is most woeful.
An improved VMP would go hand-in-hand with improved access to the north end of the city. Eventually you could build the Western expressway, and a northern connection between the east and west sections of the ring road.
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  #14  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2011, 12:47 AM
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I think that the VMP as it exists now might not serve much purpose other than for industry and servicing a few residential areas on the east side of the city, but once it is extended northward it could provide a key link to the north end of the city.

A southerly extension could be valuable if a ferry to Cleveland is ever established.
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  #15  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2011, 4:06 AM
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Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
A southerly extension could be valuable if a ferry to Cleveland is ever established.
Central Elgin has started to officially talk to Cleveland about the ferry. The St. Thomas Times-Journal said Central Elgin does not want a truck ferry, but more a car/pedestrian ferry focused on tourism. If this is the case, is there a real need for a freeway to the ferry terminal?
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  #16  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2011, 7:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokkei Mizu View Post
Central Elgin has started to officially talk to Cleveland about the ferry. The St. Thomas Times-Journal said Central Elgin does not want a truck ferry, but more a car/pedestrian ferry focused on tourism. If this is the case, is there a real need for a freeway to the ferry terminal?
Nope, I bet you'd just see Highway #4 re-extended back down to Port Stanley, with some key upgrades to the roadway to handle big blobs of traffic coming off the ferry. Has it been determined that this ferry would run from Port Stanley? or chances for a different alternative is out there?

Doubt anything more would come out of it - this ferry would run what? 1-2 trips leaving per day - maximum?
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  #17  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2011, 8:45 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
^my thoughts as well. So that the trucks get to the 401 5-10 minutes faster? Is that make-or-break? It is in the West and North of the city that the infrastructure is most woeful.
I feel it's a needed step in order to get another East/West road at the other end of VMP. I do agree an LRT would be better however we both know they are not going to build that anytime soon.

Off topic but did anyone happen to be on the 401 today? I left London to make some sales calls in Toronto to find the 401 closed because a man was hit on the highway....needless to say it took me over 3 hours to get to downtown Toronto (Davenport Rd).
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  #18  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2011, 6:10 PM
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Had a lecture last night by a transportation planner discussing the environmental assessment process in Ontario. Someone asked if the Conestoga Parkway (KW's "ring-road") would have been permitted if it was proposed today. He said absolutely not, or at least it would be virtually impossible.
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  #19  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2011, 2:23 AM
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Let's hope the city invests heavily in transit instead of building multi-million dollar freeways that most people will never use.
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  #20  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2011, 3:22 PM
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Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2 View Post
Let's hope the city invests heavily in transit instead of building multi-million dollar freeways that most people will never use.
I hate to break this to you but most people in London don't use transit to begin with. We University students may use transit extensively (well I don't but plenty of others do), but the majority of working Londoners commute by car, either solo or in a carpool. These people often in areas that simply aren't practical to serve using transit. The industrial lands out by the airport are where most of the new employment is coming from, and in future it will likely be the 401/402 corridor. The density just isn't there; you can make residential developments as dense as you like, but modern industry prefers to be spread out because it makes operations cheaper, easier and more efficient. In addition to this, it likes to have access to speedy and predictable transport. Unless you can turn all the effective industrial workers into effective office workers within a short period of time, it will stay like this for the forseeable future.

If this place ever wants to see strong, consistent growth it will need both effective road and transit infrastructure. They are tooled to serve different purposes and writing any one of them off is a bad idea. Most European cities, which people here always seem to point to as examples of effective urban planning, combine roads and transit to create a seamless and effective system.

Last edited by Wharn; Mar 28, 2011 at 3:35 PM.
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