VMP - Should be a full Freeway ASAP

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

^my thoughts as well. So that the trucks get to the 401 5-10 minutes faster? Is that make-or-break? It is in the West and North of the city that the infrastructure is most woeful.

I feel it's a needed step in order to get another East/West road at the other end of VMP. I do agree an LRT would be better however we both know they are not going to build that anytime soon.

Off topic but did anyone happen to be on the 401 today? I left London to make some sales calls in Toronto to find the 401 closed because a man was hit on the highway....needless to say it took me over 3 hours to get to downtown Toronto (Davenport Rd).

[manny_santos]

I think that the VMP as it exists now might not serve much purpose other than for industry and servicing a few residential areas on the east side of the city, but once it is extended northward it could provide a key link to the north end of the city.

A southerly extension could be valuable if a ferry to Cleveland is ever established.

[Kokkei Mizu]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

A southerly extension could be valuable if a ferry to Cleveland is ever established.

Central Elgin has started to officially talk to Cleveland about the ferry. The St. Thomas Times-Journal said Central Elgin does not want a truck ferry, but more a car/pedestrian ferry focused on tourism. If this is the case, is there a real need for a freeway to the ferry terminal?

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by Kokkei Mizu

Central Elgin has started to officially talk to Cleveland about the ferry. The St. Thomas Times-Journal said Central Elgin does not want a truck ferry, but more a car/pedestrian ferry focused on tourism. If this is the case, is there a real need for a freeway to the ferry terminal?

Nope, I bet you'd just see Highway #4 re-extended back down to Port Stanley, with some key upgrades to the roadway to handle big blobs of traffic coming off the ferry. Has it been determined that this ferry would run from Port Stanley? or chances for a different alternative is out there?

Doubt anything more would come out of it - this ferry would run what? 1-2 trips leaving per day - maximum?

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Nope, I bet you'd just see Highway #4 re-extended back down to Port Stanley, with some key upgrades to the roadway to handle big blobs of traffic coming off the ferry. Has it been determined that this ferry would run from Port Stanley? or chances for a different alternative is out there?

Doubt anything more would come out of it - this ferry would run what? 1-2 trips leaving per day - maximum?

Port Stanley is one of several possibilities, as is my understanding. I also wouldn't rule out a whole-new port location on Lake Erie that is slightly removed from one the existing towns.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Originally Posted by van Hemessen

And again I ask: why is upgrading the VMP so critical? Is it more critical than, say, LRT or improved public transit?

London shit the bed big time when it came to making a comprehensive road network and we're paying the price now. Making VMP a freeway would be a step in the right direction by get some traffic off major north-south arterial roads and make them less congested.

While certain arterial expansions, like widening Southdale, Commissioners and Sarnia to Wonderland are more needed IMO, these are already planned and set in the relative short term. Making VMP a freeway 62 years from now isn't acceptable or practical. Once VMP has been fully upgraded or a more sensible time line is implemented, then an Western freeway could begin and be more likely, which I thinking would be more of a commuter road than VMP and benefit the under-serviced west end.

LRT won't be happening. The best public transit upgrade I could see happening would be express bus routes in the short to medium term. For more people to start taking public transit and make it profitable, it would have to be comparable travel times to private cars.

[Honest Scientist]

I agree Pimpmasterdac!

I would go further and add that a full VMP ASAP should, in a perfect transportation world, lead to KW's freeway being extended along Hwy 7to S of Stratford (which is already done) and then down to meet up with VMP and become the E-W portion of the Freeway ring around the N side of London (maybe it could be called the 477!). That should, and probably will, be extended E from KW to meet up with the 407, providing a second E - W Sarnia - London - KW - Toronto option.

That could also be extended W to the 402 and also S around the W end of London to both the 402 & 401.

A second phase would extend a freeway N of London where Hwy 4 is (the 444!) as far N as Goderich, and S along Highbury or VMP to St Thomas.

If I were KING this would start very soon/be half done by now (and the JLC would have been built with 12,000 seats and the Renascence I would have been square, glass covered, and 48 stories, with II coming in at 42 floors)!

Just dreaming, LOL!

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

London shit the bed big time when it came to making a comprehensive road network and we're paying the price now. Making VMP a freeway would be a step in the right direction by get some traffic off major north-south arterial roads and make them less congested.

While certain arterial expansions, like widening Southdale, Commissioners and Sarnia to Wonderland are more needed IMO, these are already planned and set in the relative short term. Making VMP a freeway 62 years from now isn't acceptable or practical. Once VMP has been fully upgraded or a more sensible time line is implemented, then an Western freeway could begin and be more likely, which I thinking would be more of a commuter road than VMP and benefit the under-serviced west end.

LRT won't be happening. The best public transit upgrade I could see happening would be express bus routes in the short to medium term. For more people to start taking public transit and make it profitable, it would have to be comparable travel times to private cars.

[ericlewis91]

we might as well go build our own freeway

it may be quicker then londons pace

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

LRT won't be happening. The best public transit upgrade I could see happening would be express bus routes in the short to medium term. For more people to start taking public transit and make it profitable, it would have to be comparable travel times to private cars.

Some form of rail-based rapid transit will be needed at a future point in time, but given the size of the population and the rate of growth, roads should be given priority. Right now, it's painfully obvious that there is a lack of suitable grade-separated routes that would serve the current commuting patterns, so getting traffic off the arterials to prepare them for LRTs would be advisable. London can start thinking more about that option once it has 450,000 in the city proper, and after it's increased the density along main corridors.

[ForestryW]

You make a good case for an urban freeway but I fail to see how upgrading the VMP would get commuters off urban arterials like Highbury/Adelaide/Oxford/etc. It does a good enough job of that as is. Money would be better spent upgrading inner city roads (widening, separating, etc) than expanding a fringe road to a freeway.

Likewise, money would be better spent planning for improved public transit NOW that will be needed in the future. At least the city has created a plan for expanding the VMP while planning for BRT or LRT is not even under consideration.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Originally Posted by van Hemessen

You make a good case for an urban freeway but I fail to see how upgrading the VMP would get commuters off urban arterials like Highbury/Adelaide/Oxford/etc. It does a good enough job of that as is. Money would be better spent upgrading inner city roads (widening, separating, etc) than expanding a fringe road to a freeway.

Absolutely! In-city road expansions are definitely a higher priority IMO than VMP. The West end has grown massively yet the road network still reflect a 1960s London. Commissioners & Southdale are already paid & set to be expanded to 5 lanes to Wonderland in 2012 & 2013. Sarnia Rd. is also set to be expanded from its idiotic 3 lane disfigurement but pesky residents are arguing over turning lanes of all things

That said there are other connectivity/expansion issue are at least tentatively planned in the next 20 years, many of which are needed today. However planning a freeway VMP is 63 years from now is essential the city pussing out, not wanting to make a decision that A-channel would call "controversial" (long with deer culls and any other 'concern').

Originally Posted by van Hemessen

Likewise, money would be better spent planning for improved public transit NOW that will be needed in the future. At least the city has created a plan for expanding the VMP while planning for BRT or LRT is not even under consideration.

With LRT or BRT the issue comes down to the lack of land which effectively makes it a private vs. public transit issue. We already have an antiquated road network which needs capacity upgrades. The L/BRT routes suggested are along major arterials, like Oxford, Dundas, Richmond that are heavily used and have no more space to expand expect through mass expropriation. Only Wellington south of Baseline is expansion do-able without disrupting private traffic.

My point is we need road network upgrades first so that we could accommodate future L/BRT if thats that the city wants to do. If we don't do necessary upgrades AND saddle it with a dedicated L/BRT then traffic will be terrible more so. In the short to mid term express routes would cut down travel times and help suit public transit users now at a more affordable cost!

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by van Hemessen

You make a good case for an urban freeway but I fail to see how upgrading the VMP would get commuters off urban arterials like Highbury/Adelaide/Oxford/etc. It does a good enough job of that as is. Money would be better spent upgrading inner city roads (widening, separating, etc) than expanding a fringe road to a freeway.

I should have made it more clear that I was talking about the illustrious ring road that may materialize some day. Such a route would benefit people who work and commute along the fringes, ie most of London's permanent population. Afterwards you can focus on the other important group, those who must commute through the heart, by building appropriate rapid transit.

[Kokkei Mizu]

I made up some mock-up signs today of what the Veteran's Memorial Parkway could look like one day.


Southbound on VMP at the off-ramp for Eastbound 401.


Southbound on VMP at the off-ramp for Westbound 401. The ramp most likely would never have two lanes, so disregard the two arrows.


Southbound on VMP at the off-ramp for Dundas Street. I envision VMP being extended south to St. Thomas and north to Stratford, so showing Dundas Street as the main route to Downtown makes sense.


Northbound on VMP at the off-ramp for Oxford Street.


The off-ramp for Medway Rd.

Also, this is what I could see happening south of the 401:
http://www.commutebyrail.org/stuff/h...oute-south.png

Any comments are welcome

[ForestryW]

Had a lecture last night by a transportation planner discussing the environmental assessment process in Ontario. Someone asked if the Conestoga Parkway (KW's "ring-road") would have been permitted if it was proposed today. He said absolutely not, or at least it would be virtually impossible.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Let's hope the city invests heavily in transit instead of building multi-million dollar freeways that most people will never use.

[ForestryW]

I agree. Freeways are sexy but impractical in many cases, London being one.

[haljackey]

May as well post this here. This is a video of the VMP I took last summer.

• Video Link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NapLGwwoBYs

[MrSlippery519]

Wow only two stops not bad...I usually get at least 2-3 lights going from one end to the other

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

Let's hope the city invests heavily in transit instead of building multi-million dollar freeways that most people will never use.

I hate to break this to you but most people in London don't use transit to begin with. We University students may use transit extensively (well I don't but plenty of others do), but the majority of working Londoners commute by car, either solo or in a carpool. These people often in areas that simply aren't practical to serve using transit. The industrial lands out by the airport are where most of the new employment is coming from, and in future it will likely be the 401/402 corridor. The density just isn't there; you can make residential developments as dense as you like, but modern industry prefers to be spread out because it makes operations cheaper, easier and more efficient. In addition to this, it likes to have access to speedy and predictable transport. Unless you can turn all the effective industrial workers into effective office workers within a short period of time, it will stay like this for the forseeable future.

If this place ever wants to see strong, consistent growth it will need both effective road and transit infrastructure. They are tooled to serve different purposes and writing any one of them off is a bad idea. Most European cities, which people here always seem to point to as examples of effective urban planning, combine roads and transit to create a seamless and effective system.

[Pimpmasterdac]

VMP needs to be made a full freeway. End of story!

Regardless of whether your pro-transit or pro-car, it needs to be done to get heavy trucks and other vehicles off arterial roads and use VMP as its initial purpose. The issue is the freeway implementation plan right now it total horseshit, 62 years is a joke of a timeline. While having it a freeway next year is just as unrealistic, it needs to be done in mid term future. Provincial & Federal funding will def be needed for it!

Once VMP is done or at least has interchanges at major intersections, the city can continue onto other important transportation projects, whether its BRT, arterial expansion or the west-end freeway

The proposed west end corridor freeway I personally think would benefit commuters and daily travellers more than VMP would. The far west end is growing exponentially and needs a road to take the strain off Wonderland. A freeway would would be great, since it could move people quickly from North to south and take traffic off local roads. VMP would the the industrial freeway, west end the commuter one!