Zibi (Domtar Lands Redevelopment) | U/C

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Expensive, yes, but it doesn't pass under anything of particular importance. I don't know how much of an issue that is.

Even if it did pass under something of particular importance, what difference would it make?

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Boxster

A tramway will never see the day light in the Aylmer part of Gatineau. This is only a lot of hot air as Aylmer does not have the population to support.This idea comes from ACTION GATINEAU which is an unwanted political party at the municipal level which is now trying to take out the existing mayor.

Well, I should just point out a couple of things for accuracy's sake:

1. It's actually my idea. I wrote it up with the help of a small but enthusiastic team of other Aylmer citizens with feedback from urban planners, transportation planners, heritage conservationists and many others throughout the elaboration of the idea.

2. I actually passed the idea by all (yes, all) the residents' associations in Hull, Aylmer and even one in Gatineau this past June and it was very enthusiastically supported.

3. Action Gatineau supports the idea. I was still in the process of pitching it to many other candidates when they fell upon it (I hadn't even contacted them yet) and I'm still contacting people to try to make the liveability of Aylmer a point of consensus, not division. I made it quite clear to AG that I was going to maintain control of the idea and what my aforementioned goals are and I've maintained my complete neutrality.
I have no doubt that AG is using the idea to get elected, but that doesn't make it any less of a good idea and it ultimately isn't my concern as long as the good ideas get implemented.


So check out the site with all the info on the project: you'll find that it holds it's ground or at least you'll find some better and more accurate arguments against it (which I'd love to hear).

[Boxster]

Gatineau cannot make the move to an Aylmer tramway for only a portion of the city network as it becomes too costly to maintain two platforms/infrastructures.

Would a tramway have been in the cards, it would have been implemented instead of the Rapibus on the east side of the city. In addition, Aylmer does not have sufficient population to warrant a tramway and the traffic is nothing compared to the east (Gatineau sector).

I would be very curious to see how many residents from Hull, Gatineau, Masson Angers and Buckingham actually supported this dream.

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Well, I should just point out a couple of things for accuracy's sake:

1. It's actually my idea. I wrote it up with the help of a small but enthusiastic team of other Aylmer citizens with feedback from urban planners, transportation planners, heritage conservationists and many others throughout the elaboration of the idea.

2. I actually passed the idea by all (yes, all) the residents' associations in Hull, Aylmer and even one in Gatineau this past June and it was very enthusiastically supported.

3. Action Gatineau supports the idea. I was still in the process of pitching it to many other candidates when they fell upon it (I hadn't even contacted them yet) and I'm still contacting people to try to make the liveability of Aylmer a point of consensus, not division. I made it quite clear to AG that I was going to maintain control of the idea and what my aforementioned goals are and I've maintained my complete neutrality.
I have no doubt that AG is using the idea to get elected, but that doesn't make it any less of a good idea and it ultimately isn't my concern as long as the good ideas get implemented.


So check out the site with all the info on the project: you'll find that it holds it's ground or at least you'll find some better and more accurate arguments against it (which I'd love to hear).

[Aylmer]

Well, we have buses in Aylmer and the Rapibus in Gatineau and it seems to work alright (at least for us in the west!). The argument that one needs to be able to use the same mode of transportation everywhere doesn't hold simply because different problems call for different solutions; The analogy I often use is that, if I use a screw-driver for a screw, do I also have to use it to hammer a nail? The situation (as described in the report and in the website, both of which I encourage you to read) is not that rail is somehow better than buses or vice-versa, but rather that the Rapibus requires an amount of space that simply isn't available anywhere, lest we tunnel under the roundabouts on Des Allumettières and re-dynamite the Gatineau Park section or expropriate several meters of heritage-protected land and buildings around Chemin d'Aylmer. I'm a pragmatist and proposing something which seems so 'out there' is not the easiest thing to do, but I know it to be right from my observations, the statistics that have been gathered on the situation and the experiences of other cities.

As for ridership, if we take the current ridership of the west of the city towards Hull and Ottawa and add 43% (the added ridership attributable to rail over equivalent bus transportation - the source is in the report), we get 33 000 trips per day, putting us just above Minneapolis's, Buffalo's and Pittsburgh's LRT systems.

As for whether other parts of the city will support it, I think they should; The Rapibus would require, as I said before, an impressive amount of new infrastructure, no matter how you turn it. The lack of similar challenges with the proposed Tramway and by using shallow track-laying techniques would make it significantly less expensive (I estimated it by averaging the system costs of similar systems in N-A) by several $100M's. They're paying for it as well, so they'd probably like to save those hundreds of millions of dollars.

Seriously, take a look at the website - you might find it interesting!

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Well, we have buses in Aylmer and the Rapibus in Gatineau and it seems to work alright (at least for us in the west!). The argument that one needs to be able to use the same mode of transportation everywhere doesn't hold simply because different problems call for different solutions; The analogy I often use is that, if I use a screw-driver for a screw, do I also have to use it to hammer a nail? The situation (as described in the report and in the website, both of which I encourage you to read) is not that rail is somehow better than buses or vice-versa, but rather that the Rapibus requires an amount of space that simply isn't available anywhere, lest we tunnel under the roundabouts on Des Allumettières and re-dynamite the Gatineau Park section or expropriate several meters of heritage-protected land and buildings around Chemin d'Aylmer. I'm a pragmatist and proposing something which seems so 'out there' is not the easiest thing to do, but I know it to be right from my observations, the statistics that have been gathered on the situation and the experiences of other cities.

As for ridership, if we take the current ridership of the west of the city towards Hull and Ottawa and add 43% (the added ridership attributable to rail over equivalent bus transportation - the source is in the report), we get 33 000 trips per day, putting us just above Minneapolis's, Buffalo's and Pittsburgh's LRT systems.

Seriously, take a look at the website - you might find it interesting!

Um you know that Rapibus is .. well just a bus right, not a different mode of transport?

[eemy]

Wow, kudos for taking that initiative, Aylmer.

[TMA-1]

Bit of brain-fade, I guess. I was remenbering the first time a streetcar snuck up on me in Vancouver!

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Not any more terrifying than buses... They're meant to fit in the urban landscape whereas more metro-like LRT is meant to be a totally reserved space for the purposes of mobility. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Here's a more extreme example of interaction:



But most of the time, it looks like this:

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by TMA-1

Bit of brain-fade, I guess. I was remenbering the first time a streetcar snuck up on me in Vancouver!

It does happen! I was in Montpellier a few years ago and they're dead silent; With no vibrations and hardly any sound (or much less than you'd expect for something its size), they can be surprising, especially when you're not used to them.

Thankfully, it's an advantage when you don't want to hear every vehicle coming from blocks away.

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

Wow, kudos for taking that initiative, Aylmer.

Thanks! I'm really surprised that it's come so far - it's weird to see things jump from your mind into being so fast. I believe in the logic of the idea and I've been working hard on making it solid and I've looked everything over time and time again just to make sure, but it still seems strange that it should become something that might possibly happen!

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Why?

What security concerns?

Why? Capacity issues, environmental issues and visual issues. When you have lineups of 10-20 buses, it means your likely overcapacity, it means more pollution (I get Hybrids and Electric buses exist, but those would likely have higher associated cost; initial cost, replacement of batteries...) and it means blocking views of Parliament from Wellington street and creating an a sense of being enclosed between two walls on Rideau. That last one is more about the image we project to tourist and businesses.

What security concerns? Real and perceived. Look around you, all the new security features everywhere since 9/11; the DND HQ' fort Knox retro-fit, longer wait times at airports, and soon VIA rail, blockades on Parliament Hill...

I'm no paranoid republican who thinks terrorists are all around us, but public transportation systems are common targets, and having trains run near the foundations of major governmental institutions can be a concern.

[Ottawa superman]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

And the obsession with "eliminating" STO buses is getting unhealthy, IMO. I think a Bank Street Subway to Hull would go a long way to addressing traffic, but until that happens, we'll have to cope.

Sussex and Wellington are part what the NCC calls Confederation Boulevard, a ceremonial stretch the NCC wants all bus removed to make the street much more impressive, like National Mall in DC or University Ave. in Toronto. I don't think Bank bus, even has the capacity to support a Subway.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Sorry, I didn't mean the streetcars had to be taken out (though someone, I believe it was lrt's freind pointed to a few decent reasons to do so), but were nonetheless they were completely eliminated. I wish they kept that service, or at least most of it. They could have done like Toronto and replaced the busiest route(s) with subways. Also, I don't think STO is less worthy than OC; buses in general are less worthy than electric rail or subways.

As for security; the feds raised concerns when the City came up with the Queen Street plan, so I think they may have a problem with a subway line a few meters from the West Block and the Confederation Building.

I still advocate some sort of tram loop around the two downtowns, at least until the RapiBus is converted to metro standard and a tunnel is built to bridge the gap between Montcalm and the Rideau Centre.

It's not a question of being less worthy or not. It's just that STO uses Sussex and Wellington for most it's routes and this annoys the feds. Though they do have a point I suppose. The transfer at Bayview isn't a bad idea.

I thought the security argument was against using Wellington st. Anyway, I never understood that argument; both Washington and Toronto has subway running under major institution.

The tram downtown is not going to happen. We removed the streetcar, so I think we lost that opportunity. Should we have done like Toronto and keep them, for sure. Rapibus will never be converted to a subway. Maybe LRT, and expansion to Bayview (although ridership will be too low to support this investment). This will be sufficient for Gatineau.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Ottawa superman

Sussex and Wellington are part what the NCC calls Confederation Boulevard, a ceremonial stretch the NCC wants all bus removed to make the street much more impressive, like National Mall in DC or University Ave. in Toronto. I don't think Bank bus, even has the capacity to support a Subway.




It's not a question of being less worthy or not. It's just that STO uses Sussex and Wellington for most it's routes and this annoys the feds. Though they do have a point I suppose. The transfer at Bayview isn't a bad idea.

I thought the security argument was against using Wellington st. Anyway, I never understood that argument; both Washington and Toronto has subway running under major institution.

The tram downtown is not going to happen. We removed the streetcar, so I think we lost that opportunity. Should we have done like Toronto and keep them, for sure. Rapibus will never be converted to a subway. Maybe LRT, and expansion to Bayview (although ridership will be too low to support this investment). This will be sufficient for Gatineau.

Washington and Toronto's subway lines near important governmental institutions were built before terrorism became the "in" thing to terrify the world's citizens.

And by RapiBus being converted to "metro standard", I met something similar to what we are currently doing in Ottawa, i.e. converting to rail and grade separating the gaps.

Otherwise, I agree with you; the main goal of removing buses from Confederation Boulevard would likely be to make it more impressive, the only way we might see trams running in downtown OT once again is if it's a line from Gatineau and using the PoW is likely the best way to deal with interprovincial transit in the mid-term. I think that most people from Gatineau would be O.K with transferring from the RapiBus to what is essentially a metro.

[agl]

Originally Posted by Boxster

Gatineau cannot make the move to an Aylmer tramway for only a portion of the city network as it becomes too costly to maintain two platforms/infrastructures.

Would a tramway have been in the cards, it would have been implemented instead of the Rapibus on the east side of the city. In addition, Aylmer does not have sufficient population to warrant a tramway and the traffic is nothing compared to the east (Gatineau sector).

I would be very curious to see how many residents from Hull, Gatineau, Masson Angers and Buckingham actually supported this dream.

From what I understand, when the rapid transit corridor was being studied for east Gatineau, they were using very outdated statistics on LRT technology, where costs were far higher than what you could achieve with today`s technology. So you could say the deck was stacked from the beginning. While I agree there are certain cost savings to be had to have only one mode of public transit for a municipality, to say right off without evidence that Gatineau cannot support two different modes of rapid transit is perhaps a rush to judgment (do you have statistics to back that up?). Ottawa, while admittedly has a much larger population, has currently 4 distinct modes of public transit: regular bus, grade-separated bus transitway (yes, I think there is a difference between the two), O-Train, and the under construction LRT Confederation line.

With the preferred rapibus corridor currently along Allumetières, one must factor in cost-wise how it will get through Gatineau Park without requiring more dynamite to the surrounding rock walls and major changes to the roundabouts in Wrightville. While I still have some lingering questions on the tramway that Aylmer is proposing (will residents be happy with a reduced frequency, assuming there is one due to cost of trams over buses, for one), the implementation cost could be significantly less than rapibus.

A tramway servicing Aylmer and le Plateau to Ottawa over Prince of Wales (or Eddy bridge) and spur to downtown Hull through Domtar lands, combined with Rapibus continuing its run on Wellington for Ottawa bounds passengers and rue du Portage for downtown Hull passengers has benefits for everyone:
- implementation cost savings for Gatineau (everyone will be paying for a portion of it)
- potentially cheaper operational costs (would have to check Aylmer's figures, but electric over fuel in Quebec is usually a good thing)
- Significant decrease in the number of buses on Wellington
- Only a portion of transit riders from Quebec using the Confederation Line, as opposed to having Rapibus from everywhere in Gatineau shuttling commuters to Bayview station
- Huge TOD possibilities along the tramway line, from Aylmer all the way through Hull and Chaudière island.

And future opportunities:
- ease in rail conversion of eastern Gatineau rapibus using technology that has already been implemented in the city
- extensions that lead to creation of surface transit loop connecting downtown Ottawa and Gatineau when the city councils finally decide to work together
- Integration of O-Train into the transit loop to decrease transfers, sharing cost of rebuilding/retrofitting Prince of Wales bridge to double track

Yeah, it will take a miracle to get Ottawa and Gatineau to the table for a conversation on real transit integration between the cities, but if Gatineau at least moves towards new technology similar to what Ottawa is currently putting in place (albeit not grade-separated and much less costly), it will certainly help with your talking points to get that conversation going.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Boxster

Gatineau cannot make the move to an Aylmer tramway for only a portion of the city network as it becomes too costly to maintain two platforms/infrastructures.

Would a tramway have been in the cards, it would have been implemented instead of the Rapibus on the east side of the city. In addition, Aylmer does not have sufficient population to warrant a tramway and the traffic is nothing compared to the east (Gatineau sector).

I would be very curious to see how many residents from Hull, Gatineau, Masson Angers and Buckingham actually supported this dream.

My sense is that the two platforms thing (technology, training, etc.) is really the biggest obstacle to Aylmer's plan. (Which I find quite impressive BTW - what is he studying at uni again? )

If I was going to bet (and be brutally realistic) I can see Gatineau simply extending the Rapibus on the Allumettières corridor towards the Plateau and northern Aylmer as per the current (semi-finalized) plan. Perhaps with a 90-degree turn towards the old centre of Aylmern down one of the lesser developed corridors between Allumettières and Rue Principale.

I can see this happening even if Action Gatineau sweeps the elections. Not to say politicians are fickle (I am actually not anti-politician), but certainly they can change their minds awful quick once elected.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My sense is that the two platforms thing (technology, training, etc.) is really the biggest obstacle to Aylmer's plan. (Which I find quite impressive BTW - what is he studying at uni again? )

If I was going to bet (and be brutally realistic) I can see Gatineau simply extending the Rapibus on the Allumettières corridor towards the Plateau and northern Aylmer as per the current (semi-finalized) plan. Perhaps with a 90-degree turn towards the old centre of Aylmern down one of the lesser developed corridors between Allumettières and Rue Principale.

I can see this happening even if Action Gatineau sweeps the elections. Not to say politicians are fickle (I am actually not anti-politician), but certainly they can change their minds awful quick once elected.

I wouldn't bet the farm on it- though the tramway isn't a sure thing, I have it on good authority that the western extension prefeasibility study basically says that Des Allumettières isn't all that feasible, precisely because of the difficulties to get past Wrightville and the Gatineau Park. Along with the lacklustre eastern leg (which I'm predicting will have a very wobbly start and mediocre reviews - you heard it here first, folks!), I think an alternative will be a political win. Whether or not that alternative is the tramway, express buses (I have yet to find an explanation of how that would improve transit service, but alas) or other potential solutions is yet to be seen, but I do know that the Rapibus-ouest won't survive past January (when the prefeasibility study comes out).

The only way I could see it come into being is if Bureau is elected and, through an unwillingness to acknowledge that the Rapibus might have been a mistake, they build the Aylmer-Plateau section, then take up a lane of existing traffic on Des Allumettières as HOV to avoid the expense of redynamiting and tunnelling. After a couple of months, the pressure from residents will do away with the HOV and we'll be stuck with a disembodied BRT leg requiring an additional transfer and 5 additional km's for a significantly longer ride at a price of several hundreds of millions of dollars. This is perhaps the worst thing that can happen.

[Skipper]

Originally Posted by Skipper

According to the Windmill Development Website July 15th press release, they indicated that "Until the sale of the land has been confirmed, Windmill will not be granting interviews to media". Does anyone know what the status of this project as of now?

Windmill plans to finalize Domtar negotiations in next two weeks
MarkMark Brownlee Published on October 08, 2013

Windmill Development’s vision for the underused area around Chaudiere Island on the Ottawa River will take a step closer to becoming reality sometime in the next two weeks.

http://www.obj.ca/Real-Estate/2013-1...xt-two-weeks/1


© Image courtesy of Shanta Rohse / Wikipedia Commons Chaudière Island, as seen in 2006.
That’s when Jeff Westeinde, the company’s founding partner, said he expects the company will finalize negotiations with the seller, Domtar Corp.

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by Skipper

Windmill plans to finalize Domtar negotiations in next two weeks...

And here's the article:

Windmill plans to finalize Domtar negotiations in next two weeks

Mark Brownlee, Published on October 08, 2013

Windmill Development’s vision for the underused area around Chaudiere Island on the Ottawa River will take a step closer to becoming reality sometime in the next two weeks.

That’s when Jeff Westeinde, the company’s founding partner, said he expects the company will finalize negotiations with the seller, Domtar Corp.

Windmill has been outlining its vision for the site since July, when company officials revealed they had signed a letter of intent to purchase 37 acres of land on and around the site just north of the LeBreton Flats.

The company wants to build a mixture of hotels, condominiums and office space at the site – all of which it hopes to develop according to the high environmental standards in which it specializes.

Once the purchase is complete, it will then be up to Windmill to get the proper zoning for its plans. This will be no small task, given that the City of Ottawa, the City of Gatineau and the federal government’s National Capital Commission all have a stake in the land.

However, Mr. Westeinde said he’s optimistic all the parties will be able to work together. Both municipalities have, for example, agreed to a single design review panel to go over the company’s plans.

“Our initial consultations with both the City of Ottawa and the City of Gatineau have been very positive,” he said. “They’re quite excited about the opportunity to have the private sector lead the development of our waterfront.”

Mr. Westeinde said he expects to have the zoning approved sometime in the next 18 months. Development would then start soon after that.

The company plans to purchase Albert Island, the parts of Chaudiere Island that Hydro Ottawa doesn’t own and 22 acres in Gatineau on land that used to be Wright Island.

Windmill has numerous broad objectives for the site, he said. Among these are a desire to increase ecological activity, reconnect the city to the waterfront and celebrate the history of the Algonquin First Nation.

The company is going to go over its plans for the development in more detail as part of public information sessions planned for November.

Mr. Westeinde spoke Tuesday morning at Eggs n’ Icons, a breakfast series co-hosted by OBJ and the Ottawa Chamber of Commerce.

http://www.obj.ca/Real-Estate/2013-1...xt-two-weeks/1

[J.OT13]

OT is finally moving in the right direction with waterfront development and transit. The next 10 years will be legendary!

[Boxster]

OK I give up. What does OT stand for?

Originally Posted by J.OT13

OT is finally moving in the right direction with waterfront development and transit. The next 10 years will be legendary!

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Boxster

OK I give up. What does OT stand for?

Ottawa...

[Boxster]

Thanks!

Agree with you. It's about time we see waterfront development.

Gatineau did well with the VIU building and I also hear that a VIU II is in the works...probably on the next door parking lot.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Ottawa...