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  #41  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 8:44 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
LOL did the news about Chinese authorities bulldozing a large Christian church last month make it into the censored news? How about the ongoing persecution of Falun Gong practitioners?
hm, any guesses why there would be an evangelical church in China?

also, you should read more about falun gong. it's the people of china that wanted a crackdown. they are being "persecuted" because citizens were cheated out of money by it and refusing science based medicine, t's just a bastardization of qigong to make someone rich. it's a scam, just like religion, that preys on the poor.

Last edited by headhorse; Jan 23, 2018 at 9:30 PM.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 8:46 PM
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We're not in those countries, the military is. And the military is benefitting these people because most of the work they do is humanitarian.
hahahahaha

like training neo-nazis in Ukraine?
http://thepalladium.ca/canada-traini...nazis-ukraine/

the military, like the police, is just the extension of Canada's ruling class. they're doing work to preserve markets and access to resources for Canada's millionaires.

Last edited by headhorse; Jan 23, 2018 at 9:16 PM.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 9:01 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
^This comes the closest to encapsulating my own viewpoint, except that I also believe that some cultural communities should have some leeway on promoting/protecting what makes them distinct (Quebec, First Nations, etc.). Perhaps there is a contradiction here? To which I say, so what.
Well said. I'm strongly in support of significantly expanding immigration to Canada. At the same time, we shouldn't speak for or act on behalf of some cultural communities, particularly Quebec, which has a very different history and view of the world, including their own distinct ideas about culture and economy. They should be free to do what they want in accordance with the Charter.

In general, I think economic immigration (which accounts for about 60% of all immigrants), should be devolved to the provinces (like it has been devolved to Quebec). We're already getting there with some provincial nominee programs.

For Quebec, I wouldn't mind devolving all pathways of immigration (refugees, family reunification, etc), in light of their dramatically different views on immigration, culture and economy.
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  #44  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 9:19 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
Well said. I'm strongly in support of significantly expanding immigration to Canada. At the same time, we shouldn't speak for or act on behalf of some cultural communities, particularly Quebec, which has a very different history and view of the world, including their own distinct ideas about culture and economy. They should be free to do what they want in accordance with the Charter.

In general, I think economic immigration (which accounts for about 60% of all immigrants), should be devolved to the provinces (like it has been devolved to Quebec). We're already getting there with some provincial nominee programs.

For Quebec, I wouldn't mind devolving all pathways of immigration (refugees, family reunification, etc), in light of their dramatically different views on immigration, culture and economy.
It took some time for people to come around to this, but I think most of the smart ones now realize that, actually, "Canada wins" when this happens.

For example you end up with people like Aldo Bensadoun, who founded the huge shoe conglomerate that beards his name (ALDO)...
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  #45  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
Well said. I'm strongly in support of significantly expanding immigration to Canada. At the same time, we shouldn't speak for or act on behalf of some cultural communities, particularly Quebec, which has a very different history and view of the world, including their own distinct ideas about culture and economy. They should be free to do what they want in accordance with the Charter.

In general, I think economic immigration (which accounts for about 60% of all immigrants), should be devolved to the provinces (like it has been devolved to Quebec). We're already getting there with some provincial nominee programs.

For Quebec, I wouldn't mind devolving all pathways of immigration (refugees, family reunification, etc), in light of their dramatically different views on immigration, culture and economy.
I am fine with this proposal.
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  #46  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2018, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
LOL did the news about Chinese authorities bulldozing a large Christian church last month make it into the censored news? How about the ongoing persecution of Falun Gong practitioners?
The government's excuse was that it was built without permits (the owner pretended it was going to be a warehouse). There's been several other explanations offered as well. Churches aren't illegal in China, but they have to follow the law (restrictive as it may be).

As for Falun Gong, they're like an Eastern version of Scientology. Given China's past experience with religious cults exploding into all out rebellion (check out the Taiping Rebellion) it doesn't really surprise me that they'd crack down on a quasi-religious organization with a large public following. That obviously doesn't excuse the brutalness of the crackdown (if western media reports on it are to be believed), but it at least explains why China would come down so hard on it.

But again, what does this have to do with ordinary Chinese? These are actions of their government, not individuals who have immigrated to Canada.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2018, 1:22 AM
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Originally Posted by headhorse View Post
you're talking about america right? also the pollution point is moot, it produces way less than the west and China has done more to make their economy more sustainable than any western nation. the sad part is, you're more brainwashed by western chauvinism than any Chinese citizen is by their own country.
If you are implying China is just as good as America, consider if you'd rather move to Kentucky or Yunnan (implying you could speak fluent Chinese).
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  #48  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2018, 3:17 AM
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The government's excuse was that it was built without permits (the owner pretended it was going to be a warehouse). There's been several other explanations offered as well. Churches aren't illegal in China, but they have to follow the law (restrictive as it may be).
I'd just like to add a bit of background to the rather messy situation of the Catholic Church in China. All catholics in China must belong to the Cathoic Patriotic Association (and arm of the government) and support it over the pope. Bishops appointed by the pope without the support of the Chinese government are subject to arrest, and likewise Bishops chosen by the Chinese government (who claims to have this right) without Vatican approval are excommunicated by the Vatican. There is a parallel Catholic Church that is practiced underground with declared loyalty to the pope, but they risk arrest if they're caught doing anything. There are (or were) likewise secretly appointed Cardinals from China that couldn't be named until their death for fear of their wellbeing.

Basically, Christians are allowed to practice a faith that is set by the terms of the Chinese government. I suppose they're lucky enough that in most cases the government will let them keep it to some extent.

There are rumblings that the Pope and Beijing are closing into some agreement about some of this stuff which is very controversial, but I'll leave it at that for now.

Anyways, I just wanted to point out a few things. I also want to point out that none of this would be any reason not to let Chinese immigrants into Canada, I have little or no issue with that at all.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2018, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
Well said. I'm strongly in support of significantly expanding immigration to Canada. At the same time, we shouldn't speak for or act on behalf of some cultural communities, particularly Quebec, which has a very different history and view of the world, including their own distinct ideas about culture and economy. They should be free to do what they want in accordance with the Charter.

In general, I think economic immigration (which accounts for about 60% of all immigrants), should be devolved to the provinces (like it has been devolved to Quebec). We're already getting there with some provincial nominee programs.

For Quebec, I wouldn't mind devolving all pathways of immigration (refugees, family reunification, etc), in light of their dramatically different views on immigration, culture and economy.
Oh pleas, Quebec’s investor immigrant program has been shown to be just a back door to get into BC. It’s a joke!
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  #50  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2018, 2:25 PM
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Oh pleas, Quebec’s investor immigrant program has been shown to be just a back door to get into BC. It’s a joke!
This makes it sound like this specific thing was the main objective and nexus of having Quebec take a greater role in managing immigration.

It was more like an unintended minor side effect.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2018, 3:16 PM
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My understanding is that the retention rate among Quebec immigrants has been much higher recently (vs. back in the eighties/nineties, when Quebec struggled economically and had much political strife)...Quebec targets different countries to source its immigrants. The Chinese community in Quebec is proportionately quite small, relative to the North African, Middle-Eastern, and Haitian ethnic populations in Quebec, which are places specifically targeted due to having people that speak French. My colleagues' research (many of whom are statisticians working with Statistics Canada data) seems to support this. By contrast, Atlantic Canada has had a very miserable retention rate.

From my BC years, there were very few people from these places....perhaps things have changed (does BC attract a swath of immigrants from the middle east, north Africa and Haiti?).

If anything, Quebec immigrants that move away are much more likely to end up in Toronto than BC (the research also supports this...I had a guest speaker from Statistics Canada give a talk to my graduate students in early December on the retention rates of different immigrant groups in different provinces in Canada...longitudinal data going back to the early 90s).
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  #52  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2018, 3:54 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
(the research also supports this...I had a guest speaker from Statistics Canada give a talk to my graduate students in early December on the retention rates of different immigrant groups in different provinces in Canada...longitudinal data going back to the early 90s).
It sounds interesting. Can you give a brief summary of that talk by your guest speaker from Stat Can?
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  #53  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2018, 4:01 PM
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There are rumblings that the Pope and Beijing are closing into some agreement about some of this stuff which is very controversial, but I'll leave it at that for now.
Let's pray to God that Pope Francis will be able to resolve the issues so that Christians over there will be free to worship the way God intends us to do just like anyone else in the democratic Western civilization. Many of us in the West have taken for granted that a fundamental human right like freedom to worship is subject to prosecution in different part of the world. The development of human civilization still has a long way to go to eradicate a major flaw like this.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2018, 4:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
My understanding is that the retention rate among Quebec immigrants has been much higher recently (vs. back in the eighties/nineties, when Quebec struggled economically and had much political strife)...Quebec targets different countries to source its immigrants. The Chinese community in Quebec is proportionately quite small, relative to the North African, Middle-Eastern, and Haitian ethnic populations in Quebec, which are places specifically targeted due to having people that speak French. My colleagues' research (many of whom are statisticians working with Statistics Canada data) seems to support this. By contrast, Atlantic Canada has had a very miserable retention rate.

From my BC years, there were very few people from these places....perhaps things have changed (does BC attract a swath of immigrants from the middle east, north Africa and Haiti?).

If anything, Quebec immigrants that move away are much more likely to end up in Toronto than BC (the research also supports this...I had a guest speaker from Statistics Canada give a talk to my graduate students in early December on the retention rates of different immigrant groups in different provinces in Canada...longitudinal data going back to the early 90s).
I think you're right. More than ever, immigrant retention in Quebec correlates heavily with knowledge of French (or not) as a first or second language. Obviously some francophone immigrants to Quebec do move to other provinces - chiefly to the GTA as you say. It's actually a similar factor at play than the one I've alluded to for Anglo-Quebecers moving to the GTA: their knowledge of French in the country's largest city home to many national companies is a highly marketable job skill.

Still, it's only a micro-trend, and actually the vast majority of people from France in particular who leave Quebec just go back to France. (Obviously most immigrants don't have as enticing a "homeland" to go back to if things don't work out for them here.)
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  #55  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2018, 5:18 AM
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Regarding immigration to Quebec (the province), one thing I've always wondered is why Quebec City itself has a relatively small proportion of immigrants (even Francophone ones, whether from France itself or just French-speaking, of the sort who go to Montreal), for being the second of Quebec's cities in size and being a sizable city of over half a million. It seems like for such a large city, it has a relatively large proportion of people descended from early settlers and smaller proportion of people who arrived as immigrants overseas within the last few generations than any other North American city of its size.

I mean, I understand Montreal was the big draw, and I guess it's not too different from immigration to Ontario being Toronto-centered. But Gatineau as a city itself is smaller than Quebec city and still seems to get a lot of immigrants (and I guess because of being across from Ottawa, which also gets a lot of immigrants, being part of a much larger metro area if included), but aside from that, immigration to Quebec is really Montreal-centered.
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  #56  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2018, 9:20 AM
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As someone who once came to Canada through the refugee program with my family with virtually no english.

1) People illegally crossing the border from the US are not refugees and should be immediately deported without delay. We entered the first safe country, lived in refugee housing etc. until we were re settled to another accepting country. Thats how it is done. Zero respect for economic migrants trying to jump the process in place. The government should be heavy handed with these people.

2) My family learned English asap. People who cant speak one of the official languages don't belong here. It should be impossible to obtain citizenship without being fluent in one of the official languages. It should be impossible to maintain pr status indefinitely without being fluent in one of the official languages. I don't care what sort of sob story the person has but when re applying for PR 5 years later without having developed a fluency in the official language you should be put in cuffs and loaded on a plane and deported. Of course you can get a warning a x months before that date that without a language assessment you will need to leave the country on x day and will not be eligible for a PR extension.

3) People with physical disabilities who are a drain on society need to stay where they are unless they are coming in through the refugee system. Even via the refugee system it should be looked at if it makes sense to resettle them rather to some other country.

4) I am tired of people saying oh we have a constitution. The constitution a does not offer rights to non Canadians trying to immigrate here and b the constitution can be changed at any time to remove any flaw that we find. Its not a argument.

Follow these things and we will end up with a wonderful country worth living in. Dont and society will slowly degrade decade by decade until everyone will wonder what happened a generation from now.
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  #57  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2018, 3:59 PM
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I can't understand the heartlessness of your post given your own personal experiences.
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  #58  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2018, 3:38 PM
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I'd just like to add a bit of background to the rather messy situation of the Catholic Church in China. All catholics in China must belong to the Cathoic Patriotic Association (and arm of the government) and support it over the pope. Bishops appointed by the pope without the support of the Chinese government are subject to arrest, and likewise Bishops chosen by the Chinese government (who claims to have this right) without Vatican approval are excommunicated by the Vatican. There is a parallel Catholic Church that is practiced underground with declared loyalty to the pope, but they risk arrest if they're caught doing anything. There are (or were) likewise secretly appointed Cardinals from China that couldn't be named until their death for fear of their wellbeing.

Basically, Christians are allowed to practice a faith that is set by the terms of the Chinese government. I suppose they're lucky enough that in most cases the government will let them keep it to some extent.

There are rumblings that the Pope and Beijing are closing into some agreement about some of this stuff which is very controversial, but I'll leave it at that for now.
It is indeed very controversial. You should read the report below if you haven't already:

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/col...inas-catholics
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  #59  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2018, 5:42 PM
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It is indeed very controversial. You should read the report below if you haven't already:

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/col...inas-catholics
So the Vatican joins the long list of western companies whoring out their principles to do business with China. Why is anyone surprised?
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  #60  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2018, 6:44 PM
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So the Vatican joins the long list of western companies whoring out their principles to do business with China. Why is anyone surprised?
As a Christian, I hate to think that way, and certainly won't dismiss the whole thing in one broad stroke. I do realize the tremendous difficulty, if not the utter impossibility, the church is facing in dealing with Communist China. It pains me to think that those 80 to 100 million Christians in China are doomed, but the reality seems gruesomely dim for them. If the report holds any truth, then Christianity in China will be turned into yet another tool of mind control for the Chinese government.

China is determine to crack down on every public organization, religious or otherwise, that has the drawing power to form a sizeable crowd. Christianity along with other larger groups have fallen victim to the blow of its iron fist. If China is able to assert its influence on other countries outside its boundary, there is absolutely impossible that Vatican will have the power to make changes on its own turf. Unfortunately, it is what Christians must realize and face, I suppose.

The globalization of China seems unstoppable, and it is getting increasingly aggressive and rapid as the report below has stated:

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/worl...g-about-china/
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