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  #1781  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2012, 9:14 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Originally Posted by glowrock View Post
As I said, how about a campus-style development along the lines of American Eagle's in SSW, perhaps just a few floors higher? It's dense, it's got structured parking, and it fits in very well with the rest of the development.
Go at least 8 stories (and that seems reasonable in light of the sqft they are talking about), and you have a deal.

Edit: The Mellon Client Service Center is also a possible model.
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  #1782  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2012, 10:25 PM
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Go at least 8 stories (and that seems reasonable in light of the sqft they are talking about), and you have a deal.

Edit: The Mellon Client Service Center is also a possible model.


Deal agreed upon!

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  #1783  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2012, 11:54 PM
Johnland Johnland is offline
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The 31st Bridge demo??? Whaaaat?

Sidenote: the windows are great in the Lot 24 Bldg. The units will get great light inside.
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  #1784  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2012, 12:08 AM
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As if stated in this thread before, the strip district is THE prime area besides downtown that should go vertical. There's a very similar looking neighborhood in Portland, Oregon called the South Waterfront that looks exactly like the strip in it's shape and relation to downtown.

Look at their plan:







And how about a cool tram or an incline to connect up to Bigelow Boulevard or the new civic arena site; It would be another city attraction to draw people.

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  #1785  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2012, 2:48 PM
Private Dick Private Dick is offline
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So Portland can develop its Strip District into an extension of downtown (and build a light rail line and bridge to serve it, no less)... and Dallas can build a huge park-like cap over its Crosstown Blvd. and connect its Uptown to downtown.

The question to be asked is... Can Pittsburgh realistically do both or either of these things on a smaller scale?
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  #1786  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2012, 2:56 PM
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I don't see any reason why Pittsburgh couldn't extend downtown into the Strip (other than its a smaller site and some would want a more conservative brick design to match the other buildings in the Strip).

I'm not sure about the cap over I-579. That has to come out of government funds and there probably isnt any money to do it or, for that matter, motivation to do it. Would it be nice, sure, but there are other infrastructure issues that are far more pressing.
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  #1787  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2012, 3:00 PM
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Great urban photo in the PG today... too bad about the fire obviously, but great camera work. Almost doesn't look like Pittsburgh to me... like maybe the pic could be depicting a scene in southern or eastern Europe somewhere... then I spotted the green corrugated plastic used as a roof on the balcony... dead giveaway.

Residents flee raging 10-alarm fire in Ambridge


http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...bridge-653325/
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  #1788  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2012, 3:03 PM
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One observation worth making is that Portland's Metro organization is far more autonomous from the state of Oregon when it comes to making land-use and transportation policy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_%..._government%29

It would be a very different situation if, say, the Southwest Pennsylvania Commission had similar powers, rather than the folks in Harrisburg largely keeping it for themselves.

Dallas is in a somewhat similar situation just because of its sheer size (in terms of land area).

Of course we could beat our heads against the wall endlessly without ever formally restructuring government around here. But I think there are lessons to be applied at least informally--if the centrally located governments of the Pittsburgh Metro did a better job working together on these issues, and if they also did a better job getting a compliant state government (and this remains an important swing area in state politics), then we could very likely accomplish more.
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  #1789  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2012, 3:23 PM
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^ Yeah, I agree. I think these two examples provide learning opportunities for Pittsburgh. Both are about as close as it gets to cities actually making the things happen that Pittsburgh would ideally like to do in improving its urban core.

Looking at how those two cities did it and applying that knowledge to Pittsburgh (obviously with much accommodation/adjustment) likely turns up the topic we all know must be addressed if Pittsburgh really is to undergo a real, meaningful renaissance -- that being municipal cooperation/consolidation. It's just that no one has the political stones to strongly address it.
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  #1790  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2012, 4:51 PM
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A vision for the Strip back in the 60s had an illustration similar to the Portland picture (with then modern buildings).
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  #1791  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2012, 8:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Private Dick View Post
^ Yeah, I agree. I think these two examples provide learning opportunities for Pittsburgh. Both are about as close as it gets to cities actually making the things happen that Pittsburgh would ideally like to do in improving its urban core.

Looking at how those two cities did it and applying that knowledge to Pittsburgh (obviously with much accommodation/adjustment) likely turns up the topic we all know must be addressed if Pittsburgh really is to undergo a real, meaningful renaissance -- that being municipal cooperation/consolidation. It's just that no one has the political stones to strongly address it.
besides Bill Peduto anyway...

I still think 8-10 floors is still too limiting. The latest proposal from Bunchar insinuated at something in the 15-20 floor range in the part closest to Downtown, which I think is more suitable especially if we're talking about really extending Downtown into the Strip. 8-10 stories would be more suitable in the far area of the Strip.

Not really suggesting something that would meet or surpass the height of US Steel. Granted that would be awesome as all heck, but it is far from realistic...
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  #1792  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2012, 8:36 PM
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Yeah, fair enough. I could see a grouping of 10-to-15-story buildings built there, and it would certainly extend the density of downtown into the Strip...

Call me crazy, but I'm not exactly buying into the "skyscrapers are not efficient workplaces" statement. True, if you have a narrow building, that would certainly be true. Not all highrise buildings are built with small floor plans nor do all have to be. Take their current hq. Each floor contains an acre of space. So you have 60 acres of office space stacked on top of one another...

But... I guess it can be assumed they don't want to be in a highrise anymore...
Efficiency metrics depend on how broad a study is performed. If it only includes percentage of floor space that is usable, of course skyscrapers are less efficient. However if transportation factors are figured in, they are extremely efficient. When the density of a city exceeds a certain threshold, public transit becomes viable. Not just viable, but actually the optimal way of moving people between all the places they need to go in a single day. Less space is needed for parking, less money is spent on transportation and gas, less money is spent to repair road damage, average commute times are decreased, etc.

In my opinion, the worst thing that could happen to Pittsburgh at this point in its development would be to build suburban style corporate campuses. It would kill our recent urban renaissance. Just look at the modern development along technology drive near the hot metal bridge. It resembles a lifeless ghost town despite being in active use. Compare this to the opposite side of the river where the southside works was built in a traditional urban style to foster street life and urban living.

So in my book the south side works is a huge success and technology drive the epitome of botched urban planning. I would love to see more developments such as the south side works. It seems to perfectly blend modern requirements with centuries of tried and true urban structure.
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  #1793  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2012, 8:59 PM
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The unfortunate reality is that the SS Works has been a financial failure (for Soffer) and 2nd Avenue has not. The URA gave away most of the development rights on 2nd Ave to Ferchill. Until Ferchill decides to do something the remainder of the site will sit vacant.
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  #1794  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2012, 9:18 PM
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I don't have any direct knowledge, but from the outside looking in, it appears to me that the fundamental problem with the SSW was that its early mix was biased toward retail and away from residential (and probably didn't have enough office and hotel either), and for much of the relevant period retail was struggling everywhere whereas new residential has been going great in the core area. So I would hope (and predict) that as the mix of uses at SSW moves in a more sustainable direction the overall financial return on SSW will improve (although it may still have too much retail depending on how that market continues to develop).
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  #1795  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2012, 9:23 PM
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Originally Posted by dfiler View Post
Efficiency metrics depend on how broad a study is performed. If it only includes percentage of floor space that is usable, of course skyscrapers are less efficient. However if transportation factors are figured in, they are extremely efficient. When the density of a city exceeds a certain threshold, public transit becomes viable. Not just viable, but actually the optimal way of moving people between all the places they need to go in a single day. Less space is needed for parking, less money is spent on transportation and gas, less money is spent to repair road damage, average commute times are decreased, etc.

In my opinion, the worst thing that could happen to Pittsburgh at this point in its development would be to build suburban style corporate campuses. It would kill our recent urban renaissance. Just look at the modern development along technology drive near the hot metal bridge. It resembles a lifeless ghost town despite being in active use. Compare this to the opposite side of the river where the southside works was built in a traditional urban style to foster street life and urban living.

So in my book the south side works is a huge success and technology drive the epitome of botched urban planning. I would love to see more developments such as the south side works. It seems to perfectly blend modern requirements with centuries of tried and true urban structure.
Oh I actually agree with you on all counts. I always wondered what the hell was the point of Technology Drive. I don't like suburban corporate parks even in the fricking suburbs -- ones that are already built. They eventually lead to a gradual deterioration of that particular suburb in the long run.

I've been saying for a long time how important it is for Pittsburgh to expand its public transportation system. I often wonder why the service isn't more regional. All of the surrounding counties have their own transportation agency. If anyone didn't know any better, they'd think that Pittsburgh's metropolitan area only included Allegheny County. Look around at some of the other metro areas and observe their area of service. Port Authority is a joke. I guess nobody else (WCTA, BCTA, etc...) is willing to consolidate into more of a regional public transportation agency. I guess one major reason is that the costs will probably sky-rocket, but I think they could rather efficiently move more people from place to place...

That whole above argument is what leads me to the whole idea of high-rise developments. I like them because they represent urban vibrancy (if planned and designed right, that is) as well as economic fortitude. High rises tend to yield higher populations and vise versa (larger concentration of jobs and living quarters). Therefore, IMO, they are the best use of almost any parcel of land within the urban core of any urbanized area, especially one like Pittsburgh. Of course, access to transportation would be ideal for a high-rise development for the reasons you mentioned (greater transit access yields less need for parking).

Even when you don't have a high-rise development, you can still have that sense of urban vibrancy like you mentioned with the South Side. Of course, taller buildings just would not fit in very well in this neighborhood or anywhere else that is not Downtown, the North Shore, or Oakland...

On a side note, is there any new info regarding the possible commuter rail line along the Allegheny River? I still envision an expansive rail network linking once-connected suburbs by the Pittsburgh Railways like New Castle and Butler, along with a line using the CSX ROW extending through the Streets Run valley to Findleyville and back out to Washington.
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Last edited by Jonboy1983; Sep 17, 2012 at 9:31 PM. Reason: question...
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  #1796  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2012, 9:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Private Dick View Post
Great urban photo in the PG today... too bad about the fire obviously, but great camera work. Almost doesn't look like Pittsburgh to me... like maybe the pic could be depicting a scene in southern or eastern Europe somewhere... then I spotted the green corrugated plastic used as a roof on the balcony... dead giveaway.

Residents flee raging 10-alarm fire in Ambridge


http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...bridge-653325/
I live about 2 miles from there. Ambridge, like several other towns in Beaver County were giant melting pots; Both sides of my family immigrated to Ambridge for the glut of jobs in the early 20th century.

Keep in mind, Beaver County is Pittsburgh metro's second most dense county. I noticed hanging out in Pittsburgh, that many city people act like I live on mars when I tell them where i live, But to me it is quintessential Pittsburgh style. We also have one of the best county public transit systems in the state.
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  #1797  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 9:29 AM
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Regarding the Second Ave./Technology corridor, people here do realize that much of that office space is really more laboratory space in nature, correct? The facility uses there don't readily lend themselves to high-rise uses because of the laboratory/floorplate requirements. I'm not saying that it's some amazing use of space (it's not), but it still is pretty decent. Definitely needs to be denser in terms of overall numbers of buildings (I believe there are a few parcels that can still be built upon there), but overall it's not terrible. The denser side is SSW, as well it should be. SSW has had its issues with retail, but certainly not in terms of its office and its residential components. And frankly, the retail's not that bad, either. It had bad luck with the number of regional/national chains that left the market or shut down entirely, just like so many other places. Overall I still think it's a pretty vibrant area, and the new Hyatt hotel is only going to help that along.

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  #1798  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 12:28 PM
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Retail is tough everywhere right now, Southside Works isn't unique in its struggle.
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  #1799  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 3:24 PM
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Regarding the Second Ave./Technology corridor, people here do realize that much of that office space is really more laboratory space in nature, correct? The facility uses there don't readily lend themselves to high-rise uses because of the laboratory/floorplate requirements. I'm not saying that it's some amazing use of space (it's not), but it still is pretty decent. Definitely needs to be denser in terms of overall numbers of buildings (I believe there are a few parcels that can still be built upon there), but overall it's not terrible. The denser side is SSW, as well it should be. SSW has had its issues with retail, but certainly not in terms of its office and its residential components. And frankly, the retail's not that bad, either. It had bad luck with the number of regional/national chains that left the market or shut down entirely, just like so many other places. Overall I still think it's a pretty vibrant area, and the new Hyatt hotel is only going to help that along.

Aaron (Glowrock)
Even if there is a high lab to office ratio, Technology drive is still a horrible development. It is an island of suburban sprawl in the middle of a city. It is completely incompatible with the rest of the city structure of Pittsburgh.

While better in the short term than a rubble strewn field, I would still characterize it as the worst type of development possible in the city of Pittsburgh. Only time will tell for sure, but it seems analogous to the urban planning blunder that is Allegheny Center. If more of these developments are built, public transit will be totally infeasible and walkability is completely out the window.

I could be swayed though. Is there a worse type of development, in terms of urban structure, that could be built in Pittsburgh?
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  #1800  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2012, 4:54 PM
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You guys know that the Pittsburgh Technology Park is only half way built out and it is supposed to add an additional 1 million square ft right?

The Tech Center has been a financial success too.

Taken from a CMU document:

Quote:
This site used Tax Increment Financing (TIF) to fund the completion of the $104 million
development. Because of its almost immediate success, the $7.5 million taken from TIF was
repaid 12 years ahead of schedule.

Today the URA is considering the development
of 1 million square feet for more office space
on the vacant sites on this property because
of its success and continued interest shown
by private organizations. Also, by doing this,
the URA realizes that the current research
center landscape is a suburban use of land in
an urban area. By making more land available
for office space, the URA can use more smart
growth practices.
http://www.cmu.edu/steinbrenner/brow...%20-%20LTV.pdf
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