Salt Lake MSA Development Thread

[StevenF]

On the idea on a new prison they should do it Inca style and chop off the top of a mountain. That way the only way down is by chopper or throwing themselves off.

[goldcntry]

It wouldn't surprise me if RC Wiley across Bangerter from me on 47th South will close... though they and the IHC right there are an anchor for keeping that neck of Taylorsville/Kearns/WVC from going grunge faster than it is...

[Zionide]

Originally Posted by RC14

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...committee.html
Quote:"SALT LAKE CITY — Another option emerged Friday in the debate over relocating the Utah State Prison from Point of the Mountain — building a new facility on just part of the property to free up the rest for development."
I've always thought moving the prison was a good idea. I hope it does get moved. I don't think a smaller footprint will be good enough as property values probably won't be too high next to a prison.

I don't think they should ever move the prison; it's incredibly expensive to do so, and no one else will want it near their homes, either. Let the idiots who bought property right next to it deal with the property value issue (who wants to live in Draper, anyway?!); they knew exactly what they were getting when they chose to buy there.

[jtrent77]

Originally Posted by Zionide

I don't think they should ever move the prison; it's incredibly expensive to do so, and no one else will want it near their homes, either. Let the idiots who bought property right next to it deal with the property value issue (who wants to live in Draper, anyway?!); they knew exactly what they were getting when they chose to buy there.

The prison being moved is not a matter of "if" but a matter of "when" and "where." At some point it will definitely make more sense financially to move it than to keep it (i.e. constant repairs, upgrades needed etc.). It's really is just a matter of whether it happens this decade or in a couple of decades.

[ajiuO]

Lets put the new prison on antilope island.

[StevenF]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Lets put the new prison on antilope island.

Salt flats might be a good location as well.

[ajiuO]

I like it. It will be the harshest prison in the country. There will be no tv, Internet, or entertainment. The will eat slop and feel the pain of their punishment. Then there will be a road that leads 1 mile west of the prison. Those who are to be exicuted will walk their last mile and then stand barefooted on the hot white salt as they are terminated via firing squad. We will let the blood stain the white salt and call the facility "Red Desert" ... People will fear it


And any prisoner who is released will be taken via secure van to the Navada Border and released.... It will be our way of saying we don't want you

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

I like it. It will be the harshest prison in the country. There will be no tv, Internet, or entertainment. The will eat slop and feel the pain of their punishment. Then there will be a road that leads 1 mile west of the prison. Those who are to be exicuted will walk their last mile and then stand barefooted on the hot white salt as they are terminated via firing squad. We will let the blood stain the white salt and call the facility "Red Desert" ... People will fear it


And any prisoner who is released will be taken via secure van to the Navada Border and released.... It will be our way of saying we don't want you

Rather than making our prisons more harsh, we ought to be following Norway's model: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mosl...-catch-UK.html


Norway's controversial 'cushy prison' experiment - could it catch on in the UK?
The Daily Mail
By PIERS HERNU

Can a prison possibly justify treating its inmates with saunas, sunbeds and deckchairs if that prison has the lowest reoffending rate in Europe? Live reports from Norway on the penal system that runs contrary to all our instincts - but achieves everything we could wish for


An inmate convicted of murder sunbathes outside the wooden cottage where he lives at Bastoy Prison, Norway's only island prison.

On a clear, bright morning in the tranquil, coastal town of Horten, just south of Oslo, a small ferry slides punctually into harbour. I am to take a short boat ride to the sunlit, green island of Bastoy shimmering on the horizon less than two miles away. It is a curious place. There are no secluded holiday homes or elegant hotels with moorings for passing yachts. The 120 people who live there never visit the mainland, but then why would they?

They spend their days happily winding around the network of paths that snake through the pine forests, or swimming and fishing along the five miles of pebble beaches, or playing on the tennis courts and football pitch; and recuperating later on sunbeds and in a sauna, a cinema room, a band rehearsal room and expansive library.

Their commune has handsomely furnished bungalows with cable TV. The residents eat together in an attractively spacious canteen thoughtfully decorated with Norwegian art. The centrepiece is a striking 10ft long model of a Norwegian merchant ship.
If it sounds like an oddball Scandinavian social experiment, you'd be right. Bastoy is home to Norway's only island prison. I am here to scrutinise its hugely controversial approach to crime and punishment, and to do so with some knowledge; the last time I set foot in a prison was as a foolish 23-year-old man....

... an extensive new study undertaken by researchers across all the Nordic countries reveals that the reoffending average across Europe is about 70-75 per cent. In Denmark, Sweden and Finland, the average is 30 per cent. In Norway it is 20 per cent. Thus Bastoy, at just 16 per cent, has the lowest reoffending rate in Europe....

... 'I believe that we as human beings, if we are prepared to make fundamental changes in the way we regard crime and punishment, can dramatically improve the rehabilitation of prisoners and thereby reduce the reoffending rates,' he says.
'Bastoy is an ongoing experiment, but I really hope the results will benefit not only Norway but the UK, Europe and the rest of the world.' ...

... 'Bastoy takes the opposite approach to a conventional prison where prisoners are given no responsibility, locked up, fed and treated like animals and eventually end up behaving like animals.
'Here you are given personal responsibility and a job and asked to deal with all the challenges that entails. It is an arena in which the mind can heal, allowing prisoners to gain self-confidence, establish respect for themselves and in so doing respect for others too.' ...

... 'I have not had one violent incident here,' the governor continues. 'One inmate did manage to escape by stealing a fishing boat one night, and his punishment was to be sent back to a closed prison.' ...

... 'If I was told that my new neighbours were going to be newly released prisoners I would far rather they had spent the last years of their sentence working in Bastoy than rotting in a conventional prison,' he says.
'I have never really felt like I am working in a prison, and nor have I ever felt the slightest bit threatened here. I think most Norwegians increasingly realise that closed prisons are the old-fashioned way of dealing with criminals and that in terms of rehabilitation they simply don't work.' ...

... 'Because of Bastoy's results the Norwegian government is currently changing the law so that people who receive a sentence of up to four years can serve their whole sentence in a prison like this,' he tells me.
'Don't get me wrong. There will always be a need for conventional high-security prisons for people who are simply too damaged. But those people are few and far between.
'I believe the UK is going in the wrong direction - down a completely mad and hopeless path, because you still insist on revenge by putting people into harsh prison conditions which harm them mentally and they leave a worse threat to society than when they entered.
'This system actually has nothing to do with Norway specifically or this island, so I see absolutely no reason why it can't be adopted in the UK.'

[farmerboy]

Love it Stenar!!! Utah would be a great place to begin implementation of this new form of prison. Imagine a system that actually helps people who are in prisons vs. simply containing them and in most cases harming them psychologically.

[ajiuO]

There are some people who don't deserv help. Anyone who would intentanaly kill someone, rape a child, or commit treason... Should just be taken out and shot in the head.


Yeah there are some people who can be helped... My red desert facility will be for true bad guys.

[farmerboy]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

There are some people who don't deserv help. Anyone who would intentanaly kill someone, rape a child, or commit treason... Should just be taken out and shot in the head.


Yeah there are some people who can be helped... My red desert facility will be for true bad guys.

If they're just going to be shot in the head, what's the point of building a facility to contain them lol?

[jedikermit]

Originally Posted by farmerboy

Love it Stenar!!! Utah would be a great place to begin implementation of this new form of prison. Imagine a system that actually helps people who are in prisons vs. simply containing them and in most cases harming them psychologically.

I don't know man--rehabilitation of society's offenders? When we could just grind them up into Soylent Green? It seems so...kind. So Christ/Buddha/Vishnu/Humanist-like. I just don't see it happening.

[Wasatch_One]

Prison shouldn't be a vacation. If you're in there, you did something pretty serious.

'Bastoy takes the opposite approach to a conventional prison where prisoners are given no responsibility, locked up, fed and treated like animals and eventually end up behaving like animals.

Uh, newsflash, they most likely behaved like animals while a free part of society before getting themselves locked up.

Don't get me wrong, I know that some people in prison are/were good people that simply made a mistake. But I'm gonna guess that if you're in prison (as opposed to the county jail) you don't deserve any of this special treatment.

[farmerboy]

Interesting Fact Sheet from the NAACP

http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet

Incarceration Trends in America

From 1980 to 2008, the number of people incarcerated in America quadrupled-from roughly 500,000 to 2.3 million people
Today, the US is 5% of the World population and has 25% of world prisoners.
Combining the number of people in prison and jail with those under parole or probation supervision, 1 in ever y 31 adults, or 3.2 percent of the population is under some form of correctional control
Racial Disparities in Incarceration

African Americans now constitute nearly 1 million of the total 2.3 million incarcerated population
African Americans are incarcerated at nearly six times the rate of whites
Together, African American and Hispanics comprised 58% of all prisoners in 2008, even though African Americans and Hispanics make up approximately one quarter of the US population
According to Unlocking America, if African American and Hispanics were incarcerated at the same rates of whites, today's prison and jail populations would decline by approximately 50%
One in six black men had been incarcerated as of 2001. If current trends continue, one in three black males born today can expect to spend time in prison during his lifetime
1 in 100 African American women are in prison
Nationwide, African-Americans represent 26% of juvenile arrests, 44% of youth who are detained, 46% of the youth who are judicially waived to criminal court, and 58% of the youth admitted to state prisons (Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice).
Drug Sentencing Disparities

About 14 million Whites and 2.6 million African Americans report using an illicit drug
5 times as many Whites are using drugs as African Americans, yet African Americans are sent to prison for drug offenses at 10 times the rate of Whites
African Americans represent 12% of the total population of drug users, but 38% of those arrested for drug offenses, and 59% of those in state prison for a drug offense.
African Americans serve virtually as much time in prison for a drug offense (58.7 months) as whites do for a violent offense (61.7 months). (Sentencing Project)
Contributing Factors

Inner city crime prompted by social and economic isolation
Crime/drug arrest rates: African Americans represent 12% of monthly drug users, but comprise 32% of persons arrested for drug possession
"Get tough on crime" and "war on drugs" policies
Mandatory minimum sentencing, especially disparities in sentencing for crack and powder cocaine possession
In 2002, blacks constituted more than 80% of the people sentenced under the federal crack cocaine laws and served substantially more time in prison for drug offenses than did whites, despite that fact that more than 2/3 of crack cocaine users in the U.S. are white or Hispanic
"Three Strikes"/habitual offender policies
Zero Tolerance policies as a result of perceived problems of school violence; adverse affect on black children.
35% of black children grades 7-12 have been suspended or expelled at some point in their school careers compared to 20% of Hispanics and 15% of whites
Effects of Incarceration

Jail reduces work time of young people over the next decade by 25-30 percent when compared with arrested youths who were not incarcerated
Jails and prisons are recognized as settings where society's infectious diseases are highly concentrated
Prison has not been proven as a rehabilitation for behavior, as two-thirds of prisoners will reoffend
Exorbitant Cost of Incarceration: Is it Worth It?

About $70 billion dollars are spent on corrections yearly
Prisons and jails consume a growing portion of the nearly $200 billion we spend annually on public safety

[farmerboy]

From 1980 to 2008, the number of people incarcerated in America quadrupled-from roughly 500,000 to 2.3 million people
Today, the US is 5% of the World population and has 25% of world prisoners.

This blows my mind! I think we're seeing the result of what happens when Private Industry profits off of the incarceration of our fellow Americans.

For those of us who are visual learners.

[farmerboy]

Originally Posted by jedikermit

I don't know man--rehabilitation of society's offenders? When we could just grind them up into Soylent Green? It seems so...kind. So Christ/Buddha/Vishnu/Humanist-like. I just don't see it happening.

I like you.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by jedikermit

I don't know man--rehabilitation of society's offenders? When we could just grind them up into Soylent Green? It seems so...kind. So Christ/Buddha/Vishnu/Humanist-like. I just don't see it happening.

Yah, and Norway is one of the least religious nations on earth and they're the ones doing this.

Also, did you guys hear about those crazy Netherlanders? They eliminated crime and had to close most of their prisons. I think the main way they did this was legalizing all drugs, getting drug users into treatment instead of jail (where most of the U.S.'s prisoners are in for drugs), and now the percentage of drug users in the Netherlands is way down.

[jedikermit]

Originally Posted by farmerboy

I like you.

That's the nicest thing anyone's said to me all day.

Of course, it's still early.

[StevenF]

I told you I will do some photo's from time to time and here is the first of them.


Here is the current state of the Hotel being built in West Valley. They are working on the 7th floor. I wanted to get some shots of it from 35th but we were getting on TRAX and didn't have time for me to take a walk.



The TOD next to the 45th TRAX station on Main. I love the Birkhill apartments that are going in but not fond of the Lions Gate apartments. I don't see them engaging the street as much and my wife looked at them and asked, "I hope that color isn't the fished look". She was referring to the yellow color that they were painting the stucco.

















Ultimately I would love to see something taller than 5 floors go into the area around the 45th TRAX station, but overall happy to see this kind of density going in next to a TRAX station finally. It would also be nice to see a small grocery store go into the bottom of a future building in the development. Help spur more urban living in that area.

Interesting thing is I was standing in the skybridge at CCC and looking down Main I could see these buildings. will be interesting looking down main in the future and seeing the South end of Main anchored with midrise buildings.

[StevenF]

A week and a half later and not one post after my pictures. Not feeling the love.