Toyoko Inn | 357' | 32 floors | Dead

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by petcarpdx

I came up with a totally different number, so I'm curious about your math!

I realized that my estimate for the NYC lot size was incorrect. It's actually very close to 18,000 sq ft, so 80% larger. Due to its odd shape though, I wouldn't expect the building to max out the lot. Their plans were to build a 385 ft tower for 600-700 rooms (depending on the source). Even if their floorplate was only as big as the lot in Portland, I would expect to see a minimum of about 17 stories for a 300 room hotel built similar to what they had planned in NYC. If their NYC plans were for a larger floorplate (say 15,000 sq ft) or the Portland plans end up being closer to 400 rooms, my math says we could see something easily in the 20-30+ story range.

To be clear, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just trying to understand how our guesses are so different. Yours seems far more realistic than mine, but I haven't been able to recreate your math.

My math was based on the square footage of the site in Portland, 100x100. Then I took the average room size expected, 200 sq ft, with this in mind, I took the average rooms expected, 350 room to do the math. So the low number is based on the percentage if this building used the whole floor plate, then I did the math based on a 10x20 room size along one side of the site and doubled that number to get an idea for a much thinner floor plate, and did the math based on that to get the high end number.

I am totally ballparking it, but that is roughly how I would figure something out on the cuff in architecture school.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a 30-35 story building on that site provided it is quality architecture.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

Well, I listened to the PDC hearing held yesterday. They mentioned that the site has currently entitlements on it for a 17 story building. I guess they could transfer FAR if they need to.

Really, that all the FAR currently allowed at that site? I would have imagined the numbers would have worked out better than that, but then again this is Portland and building heights are something we are super right wing conservative about.

[rsbear]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

Doing the math on this one, I am gonna have to now guess we are looking at a possible 12-22 story building.

I think your estimate is pretty accurate.

10,000 per floor with 7,500 usable for rooms at 350 sq feet per room is 21 rooms per floor.

300 rooms then requires 14+ floors plus 2 floors for the lobby.

400 rooms requires 19 floors plus lobby.

Maybe add another floor for meeting rooms/guest services.

17 to 23 floors.

[innovativethinking]

Originally Posted by rsbear

I think your estimate is pretty accurate.

10,000 per floor with 7,500 usable for rooms at 350 sq feet per room is 21 rooms per floor.

300 rooms then requires 14+ floors plus 2 floors for the lobby.

400 rooms requires 19 floors plus lobby.

Maybe add another floor for meeting rooms/guest services.

17 to 23 floors.

The answer is 17. Mac already confirmed it

[rsbear]

Originally Posted by innovativethinking

The answer is 17. Mac already confirmed it

"Well, I listened to the PDC hearing held yesterday. They mentioned that the site has currently entitlements on it for a 17 story building. I guess they could transfer FAR if they need to."

Entitled to 17 is not the same as confirmation that it will be 17.

[innovativethinking]

Originally Posted by rsbear

"Well, I listened to the PDC hearing held yesterday. They mentioned that the site has currently entitlements on it for a 17 story building. I guess they could transfer FAR if they need to."

Entitled to 17 is not the same as confirmation that it will be 17.

Ohh really? My bad I thought it meant it was 17. Well that's good news then I'm still holding hope it's somewhere between 20-25 stories which is TALL for Portland standards

[maccoinnich]

Yes, to be clear all that means is that they can build a 17 story building without jumping through a lot of hurdles. It could be taller. It could be shorter.

[downtownpdx]

Fortunately it wouldn't take much for a tower to be pretty visible here since the only nearby one is Big Pink. I just hope the architecture is better than the renderings on their website, looks like really small windows on their hotels.

[Derek]

I'm willing to bet that this hotel won't get built, but that's just me.

[innovativethinking]

Originally Posted by Derek

I'm willing to bet that this hotel won't get built, but that's just me.

That's a safe bet I would have to agree with you

[ORNative]

Its unfortunate, but our pessimism is based on realism from past experiences . . .

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by Derek

I'm willing to bet that this hotel won't get built, but that's just me.

That seems realistic. I am with you, I will believe it when I see it under construction.

[downtownpdx]

Wouldn't be a disappointment if it were replaced with a taller, mixed use project.

[65MAX]

You realize you all are bemoaning the loss of a project that hasn't even been proposed yet, right? PDC is selling the property to Toyoko, so unless this hotelier is just buying up property to sit on it for several years (unlikely), I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that they will be building something here soon. They're even proposing an opening date in 2018, but there are still several steps before they can start construction.

Maybe we can just wait until we have a concrete proposal before everybody starts tearing it apart?

[ORNative]

LOL - Well, I was just looking for an excuse to have a beer. Had a couple to celebrate the sale and proposal. Then had a few to drown my sorrows when we all lost faith Hopefully, they will make a formal announcement and I can go out to celebrate again. Maybe a Stella this time

[Derek]

It just seems very bizarre. I welcome any new business to our city, but this hotel chain has no presence outside of Japan/Korea and they abandoned their NY site after it was in limbo for a number of years. Not to mention the architecture of their other properties. I just can't get excited about it yet.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by Derek

It just seems very bizarre. I welcome any new business to our city, but this hotel chain has no presence outside of Japan/Korea and they abandoned their NY site after it was in limbo for a number of years. Not to mention the architecture of their other properties. I just can't get excited about it yet.

I have to agree with you on this one, not very promising sounding, but who knows maybe this building will happen or maybe it will stay a fenced in hole in the ground for a while.

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by ORNative

Wall Street Journal Article (2010) on Toyoko Inn, New York: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014...93230856250018

Identifies that room sizes are approximately 200 sq feet; That hotel chain builds up to accommodate sufficient number of rooms for profitability; That NYC hotel will have 635 rooms at 35 stories tall (300-400 in Portland translates to 17-23 stories?)

Let's do the math.

200 ft^2 x 300 rooms (conservative #s) = 60,000 ft^2

On a 10,000 ft^2 lot that comes out to 6 stories.

However, once you add let's say an extra 20% for common areas etc, you get a roughly 72,000 ft^2 building. So a minimum of 7 stories.

400 rooms would be 96,000 ft^2 or ~10 stories.

Since anything over 6 stories requires Type 1 construction (steel or concrete), you may as well go a little taller and skinnier. But I wouldn't count on it...

Note: this completely ignores parking and setbacks. If we factor in retail and parking access on the first floor (likely required by the city code), then you would need to add +1 stories. So we get a minimum of an 8-11 story building. Above-grade parking would add several more stories, but would likely be a hard sell through the design commission.

More realistically, with setbacks we are probably looking at +30-50% height, so I'd estimate between 10-17 stories.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

Let's do the math.

200 ft^2 x 300 rooms (conservative #s) = 60,000 ft^2

On a 10,000 ft^2 lot that comes out to 6 stories.

However, once you add let's say an extra 20% for common areas etc, you get a roughly 72,000 ft^2 building. So a minimum of 7 stories.

400 rooms would be 96,000 ft^2 or ~10 stories.

Since anything over 6 stories requires Type 1 construction (steel or concrete), you may as well go a little taller and skinnier. But I wouldn't count on it...

Note: this completely ignores parking and setbacks. If we factor in retail and parking access on the first floor (likely required by the city code), then you would need to add +1 stories. So we get a minimum of an 8-11 story building. Above-grade parking would add several more stories, but would likely be a hard sell through the design commission.

More realistically, with setbacks we are probably looking at +30-50% height, so I'd estimate between 10-17 stories.

That is a possibility, I was a bit more liberal with my math.

[AdamUrbanist]

Dividing site area by the building square footage is not a great way to estimate the height because it doesn't account for the way a floor plate needs to be laid out. The AC hotel is on a similar 10,000 sf quarter block site and its averaging about 17 rooms per floor. So if you assume that the floor plate can accommodate somewhere from 15 to 20 rooms you get 15 to 20 stories. Factoring in some larger suites and retail/accessory spaces on the ground floor you get to 17 to 22 stories. But that still assumes a consistent floor plate extruded upwards. I think in general above 10 stories you would expect some sort of step back or tapering in order to get light and air to all the rooms. I doubt the design commission would accept an L shape extruded 20 stories up. Putting that all together I think this thing is between 19 and 25 stories and maybe even a bit taller if they were interested in doing a slender design.