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  #2141  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2008, 5:50 AM
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westsider westsider is offline
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Originally Posted by zilfondel View Post
Well, you still need railroads to move that freight long distances. Most of our food and goods we buy aren't even made or grown in this country, so they travel a long distance. Trucks are fine for local delivery, but for longer distances, rail is more efficient and less expensive. Oh, and its less environmentally damaging, too!


Thats exactly what I said at the end of my last post. Its just that you said earlier that ALL freight should be moved by train.
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  #2142  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2008, 6:55 AM
RED_PDXer RED_PDXer is offline
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Originally Posted by rsbear View Post
I think you're right - most of the freight goes in and out of Portland, and does not just travel through Portland. I remember reading (years ago) that Portland was the 10th largest distribution center in the U.S., which is amazing considering we're what, the 25th largest metro area? So most of the trucks on local freeways would logically be going to Portland or leaving from Portland, and not just passing through Portland.
I'm not sure I'm reading this correctly, but freight coming to or from Portland could just as easily be placed on a freight train. Trucks are only necessary for local distribution. Thus, a significant portion of the freight traffic on I-5 and I-84 are the result of freight being picked up at the port and then unnecessarily being driven to Idaho, Montana, Utah, Illinois, Indiana, etc.. Lots of pollution and adding to lots of congestion.

Existing highway infrastructure should be maintained through tolls and congestion pricing. But it will cost hundreds of millions more to add capacity in the Rose Quarter area and perhaps over a billion to do so. I find it laughable to think that an extra lane or two will alleviate that congestion. Too much local traffic is using the highways, as evidenced by the severely peaked auto flows during rush hour in the morning and evening at the I-5 bridge. I ride the MAX to work along I-84 every morning. Most every car I pass is carrying only one passenger. This is a ridiculously inefficient system that must stop. Why spend so much on a system that fosters socially- and environmentally-destructive behavior.

When the green line opens, the MAX line along that freeway will have the achievable capacity to carry about 7,000 commuters per hour (350 passengers x 20 trains per hour) in each direction. That's 3x as much capacity as a single auto lane in free flow traffic and even more capacity than a single auto lane in congested traffic. Investing in rail, transit, and multi-use paths is the most efficient way to improve our transportation systems and alleviate traffic. We need options, not more restricted lanes for inefficient behavior.
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  #2143  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2008, 7:19 AM
RED_PDXer RED_PDXer is offline
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Originally Posted by alexjon View Post
We'll get linked trip calcs when we get smart cards.
TriMet could provide linked trip calcs now. Every few years they conduct origin-destination surveys of riders on certain lines with the goal that each bus and max line get surveyed at least once every few years. One of the questions is "how many times did you need to transfer to make this trip?" These transfer rates can be weighted by passenger counts (on/off data collected by the automatic passenger counters) in order to get a linked trip calc.

The rates, from what I remember, vary somewhat significantly from line to line, and between mode. For example, the streetcar tends to attract riders who would not otherwise use transit, so they only take streetcar when it goes where they need to go, and will drive otherwise. Similar for the MAX.. The Interstate MAX actually experienced a decline in transfer rates from the Line 5 it replaced since all the additional riders who rode it because it took them directly where they wanted to go. I think about 83% of MAX and streetcar riders do NOT transfer, whereas some bus lines probably see transfer rates as low as 60%. From my recollection, the Trimet systemwide average transfer rate is about 1.3 (based on the surveys) so that 1.3 boarding rides represent a trip (I could be a little off)... Therefore, about 337,000 daily rides represents about 260,000 calculated linked trips.

Last edited by RED_PDXer; Jun 13, 2008 at 1:55 PM. Reason: noted that 1.3 is the average transfer rate
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  #2144  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2008, 6:58 PM
JordanL JordanL is offline
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Originally Posted by RED_PDXer View Post
Existing highway infrastructure should be maintained through tolls and congestion pricing. But it will cost hundreds of millions more to add capacity in the Rose Quarter area and perhaps over a billion to do so. I find it laughable to think that an extra lane or two will alleviate that congestion. Too much local traffic is using the highways, as evidenced by the severely peaked auto flows during rush hour in the morning and evening at the I-5 bridge.
I think people have got the wrong impression about my suggestions... almost feel like I'm about to have an angry mob remove my "Portland creds".

Way too many people commute via the freeways, but a lot of that is because:
  • A disproportionate numebr of new jobs are created in Hillsoboro, Beaverton & Downtown Portland compared to the number of housing units on the east side.
  • All of the side streets that feed into Portland's bridges have a very large number (relatively speaking for a commuter pathway) of lights on them, and most, with perhaps only the exception of Morrison St, are far too narrow fo rthe number of people that work downtown or on the west side.
  • The transit we have is incredibly efficient but terribly inconvenient because Portland has limitted sprawl so much.

People don't seem to get this: limitting sprawl brings thigns closer together, which is generally good. But it makes transit less convenient, especially since BRT will always face the same traffic delays that one would in a car, only with the added time of stops.

I commute from Division at Mt Tabor to downtown Portland every day, using the Line 4 bus. This takes me a minimum of 35 minutes each direction, often at least 45 minutes. Which is fine, I'm willing to do that. But a lot of people aren't because even in rush hour surface traffic it only takes me 10 minutes to drive from my house to where I work.

In order to get to the MAX line, I have to travel 14 blocks on foot, grab the 71 to the MAX at 60th, then wait for the MAX. That's a 1.5 hour trip, assuming the 71 isn't running late which it almost always is.

The MAX is incredible... when I lived over on 70th & Glisan I'd walk to the MAX and I could get anywhere. But if you don't live within 15 blocks of the MAX, the billions of dollars invested in it are completely useless.

My whole point with this thread was that we need to recognize that we're leaving almost all of Southeast Portland, a lot of North East Portland, and a lot of far East Portland/Gresham without a viable reason to use transit, and also without a good solution for personal transit.

Honestly I'm more concerned about the effect congestion has on safety than on the congestion itself.

None of this will personally affect me, because I'll still be riding the 4, but to say that any roads we build will magically fill with cars that for some reason aren't already there now, and thus we should just never build roads, is about the stupidest thing I've heard in a very long time.

But then, this is Portland, and people here for one reason or another have always had real issues caring about anyone's opinion but their own. :/ Our regional politics make me shake my head... people get so angry so easily.
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  #2145  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2008, 7:11 PM
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Jordan I mean no disrespect, but you should take an urban planning or transportation course. Your entire premise is all over the place and totally off. I would highly suggest taking the FREE PSU/City of Portland transportation class given twice a year at PSU for PDX residents with an interest in these type of topics. I bet it will be a huge eye opener for you.
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  #2146  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2008, 7:43 PM
JordanL JordanL is offline
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Originally Posted by cab View Post
Jordan I mean no disrespect, but you should take an urban planning or transportation course. Your entire premise is all over the place and totally off. I would highly suggest taking the FREE PSU/City of Portland transportation class given twice a year at PSU for PDX residents with an interest in these type of topics. I bet it will be a huge eye opener for you.
I am completely open to being wrong. I might take an urban planning course actually.

Would anyone be willing to take the time to explain some of it to me though?
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  #2147  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2008, 7:58 PM
zilfondel zilfondel is offline
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I read that in Canada they count one trip as a round-trip (to and from work), so our stats, even when counting linked trips, are inflated 2x compared to Canada.
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  #2148  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2008, 7:59 PM
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zaphod zaphod is offline
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I like the new trains (pictures http://www.trainweb.org/mccann/wes.htm)

They have a different look, IMO much better than the rendering and the original design
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  #2149  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2008, 8:43 PM
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Originally Posted by JordanL View Post
... people get so angry so easily.
You certainly made that point.
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  #2150  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2008, 8:45 PM
deasine deasine is offline
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Here's statistics of Metro Vancouver from 1997-2007: passenger trips & system boardings.

http://www.gvrd.bc.ca/growth/keyfacts/transit.htm
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  #2151  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2008, 8:54 PM
JordanL JordanL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbear View Post
You certainly made that point.
I just want someone to help me understand instead of saying "you're wrong I'm right".
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  #2152  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2008, 9:02 PM
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Jordon here is the site to the free class.

http://www.portlandonline.com/transp...ex.cfm?c=35727
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  #2153  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2008, 9:57 PM
deasine deasine is offline
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Originally Posted by PacificNW View Post
Is downtown Vancouver, B.C. still not serviced with a freeway?
No and thank god for that. Back in the late 60s and 70s (or it might be 70s and 80s, either way I wasn't there back then), there was a huge plan for freeway expansion in the Greater Vancouver area. As the city was growing, many planners and professors believed that freeway expansion was the way to fix our congestion and traffic problems in Vancouver. Transportation planners often used models such as Portland and LA.

The plan was to build a freeway from the Northshore (Hwy 1, which is the only highway that goes through Vancouver City) underground or above water to Downtown, then underground Downtown to Yaletown. Phase two of the project [sort of a vision] was to have a freeway go on Cambie street to Richmond connecting with Hwy 99.

Tunnel Option/Bridge Option


Interchange at Waterfront


I can't imagine what will happen if Vancouver continued on this freeway. We would probably not see Yaletown, Cambie-Heritage Blvd, and Gastown. Now JordanL, I understand why you think this way. As a matter of fact, when I started posting at SSP, I thought the same.


Source: US Department of Transportation Freeway expansion only solves congestion in the short-term, not in the long run.

Looking at Seattle, I-5 is heavily congested throughout the day and WSDOT continues expansion to relieve these problems. Only as of recently, they realize this isn't the way to go. Even though they continue expanding I-5, often, it's for high occupancy vehicles. When I was in Portland, I noticed congestion was horrible at many interchanges and junctions. Then I noticed that there were no priorities given to higher occupancy vehicles, for carpoolers and transit users? If there is any freeway expansion, it should only be for adding HOV lanes, and Bus Queue Jumpers. Transit and carpooling is not really an alternative to commuting if you are still stuck in the same traffic as everyone else.

Source: TANK Bus

Portland has been mainly focusing on light rail expansion for a while now. This isn't a bad thing, but it's not good either. I think Portland really needs to start a Bus Rapid Transit network and further improve their frequent transit netowkr, trying to connect as many communities and possible. It's far cheaper to have than LRT, and BRT can be easily converted to LRT should there be demand for it.

Then, there is biking! JordanL, have you ever tried to get to work with a bike before? It's magical. Portland's a national leader when it comes to biking developments, particularly with the new bike boxes and new bike routes. Many trips under 5 km can be made with biking, even trips under 10 km.

Basically, Portland needs to adapt this kind of guideline (from the greatest priority to the least)
1) Pedestrians
2) Cyclists
3) Transit
4) Goods-Movement
5) Carpooling
6) Single Occupancy Vehicles

I'm half dead right now so I don't really know what I'm typing makes sense... zzz...

Last edited by deasine; Jun 13, 2008 at 10:21 PM.
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  #2154  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2008, 10:18 PM
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Great post, deasine, and thank goodness Vancouver didn't push that freeway through downtown.
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  #2155  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2008, 10:36 PM
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PacificNW PacificNW is offline
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⇡Cool, tks!
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  #2156  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2008, 11:54 PM
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pdxman pdxman is offline
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^^^Not bad. Thanks for the pics. I really hope this project is a huge success, it could lead to more lines which could greatly benefit the outlying communities of portland. I also appreciated there was mention of salem leaders working on bringing the line down to the capital.
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  #2157  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2008, 12:08 AM
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Sekkle Sekkle is offline
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nice find, zaphod! I have been looking online for the past month or more to try and find a photo of them. I actually started wondering if there was some problem on the manufacturing end because Colorado Railcar hasn't updated the info on their website in like 2 years. Good to know that it's all good to go!
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  #2158  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2008, 1:06 AM
JordanL JordanL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
Then, there is biking! JordanL, have you ever tried to get to work with a bike before? It's magical. Portland's a national leader when it comes to biking developments, particularly with the new bike boxes and new bike routes. Many trips under 5 km can be made with biking, even trips under 10 km.

Basically, Portland needs to adapt this kind of guideline (from the greatest priority to the least)
1) Pedestrians
2) Cyclists
3) Transit
4) Goods-Movement
5) Carpooling
6) Single Occupancy Vehicles
Yeah, biking is an improvement of about 5 minutes over the bus, but is way more refreshing.

Unfortunately we have something like 220 rainy days a year...

The times I've found it hardest to not have a vehicle, or the times I've been most frustrated with Portland's transportation, is actually when I'm going somewhere for R&R.

Getting from South Tabor to Lloyd is at least an hour. Ditto for Clackamas. Getting somewhere like Classic's Billiards on Powell and 122nd is nearly an hour as well.

And in all those cases 11:30 is the absolute latest I can start heading home. People talk about night life, but right now that night life is restricted to those who have a car or those who can afford a $300,000 condo downtown. :/

I seem to be missing something that other people know though. How does getting rid of freeways/purposely making it less convenient to own a motorized vehicle make it any less trouble to use alternate transit options? I think the freeway's are ugly, noisy and intrusive, but I don't see the alternatives people are referring to.

I stay home quite a bit right now because I don't want to spend two hours in transit for an hour and a half of R&R. How does purposely not investing in roads lower that time?

I guess that's what I'm most confused about.
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  #2159  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2008, 2:14 AM
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I think Portland should really be pushing TODs. Create community centers along the line so the billions invested in creating MAX create the density needed to fully utilize the system.
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  #2160  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2008, 2:22 AM
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Thanks for contributing to the discussion, deasine. I agree with creating TODs along the MAX lines, Mark.
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