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  #41  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2017, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
Isn't that the logic behind the term "visible" minority, as opposed to minorities that are linguistic, religious etc. that are not based on physical appearance (unless they choose to dress differently).

In the US, though, minority without qualifier (as "visible" in the Canadian case) seems to default to mean racial minority, though things like religion, sexual orientation etc. are often included too in discussions of diversity.
Here is a good example.

Look at this reporter. (He's an excellent reporter BTW.)

Visible minority? Yes.

Impact on "diversity index"? Unclear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1ujmVaorNQ
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  #42  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2017, 4:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Sorry, I think you're really trying to stretch your case for Canada being "just as nonwhite as the US."
Okay, maybe Canada is not quite at the US level at the current moment but is quickly trending there and would likely catch up pretty soon.

Both the aboriginal population and visible minority populations in Canada are growing faster than their US counterparts, from a lower base in the case of visible minorities.

Canada's growth from immigration (the US takes in a million immigrants a year, while Canada is planning to take in a million over three years) relative to the US will decide this balance, since natural increase seems to be similar for the two countries (both the US and Canada as countries have below replacement fertility though the US is still higher).

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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
CMA - % Visible Minority - % Aboriginal - % Non-White
Toronto - 51.4% - 0.1% - 51.5%
Vancouver - 48.9% - 2.5% - 51.4%
Winnipeg - 25.7% - 12.2% - 37.9%
Calgary - 33.7% - 3% - 36.7%
Edmonton - 28.1% - 5.9% - 34%
Ottawa - 21.6% + 3% - 24.6%
Montreal - 22.6% - 0.1% - 22.7%
Quebec City - 4.9% + 0.1% - 5%

CMA - % Non-White
Toronto - 51.5%
Vancouver - 51.4%
Winnipeg - 37.9%
Calgary - 36.7%
Edmonton - 34%
Ottawa - 24.6%
Montreal - 22.7%
Quebec City - 5%
What's notable to me is how Alberta has increased a lot in its non-white population (Calgary and Edmonton are at percentages like what Toronto was like in the 90s) but this diversity has not really trickled down into wider perception of the province.

Even within the wider context of North America, Asian-Canadians as a share of the two Alberta cities are higher than almost all major US cities outside California or Hawaii, and even the city of LA. Yet would the average person, even those familiar with Canadian cities, feel that Calgary or Edmonton is on average, more "Asian" than Los Angeles?
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  #43  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2017, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
Okay, maybe Canada is not quite at the US level at the current moment but is quickly trending there and would likely catch up pretty soon.

Both the aboriginal population and visible minority populations in Canada are growing faster than their US counterparts, from a lower base in the case of visible minorities.

Canada's growth from immigration (the US takes in a million immigrants a year, while Canada is planning to take in a million over three years) relative to the US will decide this balance, since natural increase seems to be similar for the two countries (both the US and Canada as countries have below replacement fertility though the US is still higher).



What's notable to me is how Alberta has increased a lot in its non-white population (Calgary and Edmonton are at percentages like what Toronto was like in the 90s) but this diversity has not really trickled down into wider perception of the province.

Even within the wider context of North America, Asian-Canadians as a share of the two Alberta cities are higher than almost all major US cities outside California or Hawaii, and even the city of LA. Yet would the average person, even those familiar with Canadian cities, feel that Calgary or Edmonton is on average, more "Asian" than Los Angeles?
Yup, the three Prairie cities are actually very diverse. I think part of the reason they get overlooked in this regard is (i) people not updating their views to match up with the current stats and (ii) the overall population size is still a bit on the small-ish side. It's as arbitrary a number as any, but I think when Calgary and Edmonton hit 2 million, they'll get more recognition in general.
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  #44  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2017, 4:57 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
Yup, the three Prairie cities are actually very diverse. I think part of the reason they get overlooked in this regard is (i) people not updating their views to match up with the current stats and (ii) the overall population size is still a bit on the small-ish side. It's as arbitrary a number as any, but I think when Calgary and Edmonton hit 2 million, they'll get more recognition in general.
How long did it take Toronto to be seen as "very diverse"? It was not very diverse in the 70s. But at least by the 90s, people were bragging of its diversity and multiculturalism.

Even in the US, people complain that portrayals of big cities (eg. New York and LA) have not caught up to the current demographics and they've had much longer to do so and a much larger pool to draw from for their media. I mean, NYC was certainly diverse enough in its actual demographics long before people complained that "Friends" in the 90s and 2000s didn't really show many minorities.

It seems like people can take about a generation sometimes to update their view of what the "average" demographics of a city are like. But among the younger generation, it seems the view is rapidly changing -- many kids today in Canadian cities grow up with double-digit percentages of minorities and do not see them as "exotic" or "foreign" the way people thought of them 30 or even 20 years ago.
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  #45  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2017, 4:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
Isn't that the logic behind the term "visible" minority, as opposed to minorities that are linguistic, religious etc. that are not based on physical appearance (unless they choose to dress differently).

In the US, though, minority without qualifier (as "visible" in the Canadian case) seems to default to mean racial minority, though things like religion, sexual orientation etc. are often included too in discussions of diversity.
I think it's fair to separately distinguish visible minorities, but also worth noting the kind of linguistic diversity we're talking about in respect of Montreal.

Maybe this is similar to going to say, Brownsville, TX, which is... I don't know, I'm guessing, but 75% Hispanic but probably majority White. While it is majority White, there's something very different about Brownsville when compared to other similarly sized US towns in say, the Midwest. The non-Hispanic Whites and the Hispanic Whites interact, but at the same time appear to belong to different communities. And because of the linguistic and cultural differences, the place feels more diverse than its visible minority numbers would suggest.

Obviously... Montreal > Brownsville, lol, just trying to tease out that analogy.
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  #46  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2017, 5:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
How long did it take Toronto to be seen as "very diverse"? It was not very diverse in the 70s. But at least by the 90s, people were bragging of its diversity and multiculturalism.
My family immigrated to Toronto in 1995, so I guess by the time we arrived it was already considered diverse. Maybe my family tipped the scales! Haha.

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Even in the US, people complain that portrayals of big cities (eg. New York and LA) have not caught up to the current demographics and they've had much longer to do so and a much larger pool to draw from for their media. I mean, NYC was certainly diverse enough in its actual demographics long before people complained that "Friends" in the 90s and 2000s didn't really show many minorities.

It seems like people can take about a generation sometimes to update their view of what the "average" demographics of a city are like. But among the younger generation, it seems the view is rapidly changing -- many kids today in Canadian cities grow up with double-digit percentages of minorities and do not see them as "exotic" or "foreign" the way people thought of them 30 or even 20 years ago.
Agreed. Sometimes it's sociopolitical too, people just have certain stereotypes about the prairies. Some of my friends in Toronto still think anywhere outside Toronto and Vancouver is not diverse, but will still acknowledge US cities with considerably less diversity as being diverse. It might just be a lack of exposure, but I think increasingly people are moving around and perceptions are quickly changing to catch up.
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  #47  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2017, 5:06 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
I think it's fair to separately distinguish visible minorities, but also worth noting the kind of linguistic diversity we're talking about in respect of Montreal.

Maybe this is similar to going to say, Brownsville, TX, which is... I don't know, I'm guessing, but 75% Hispanic but probably majority White. While it is majority White, there's something very different about Brownsville when compared to other similarly sized US towns in say, the Midwest. The non-Hispanic Whites and the Hispanic Whites interact, but at the same time appear to belong to different communities. And because of the linguistic and cultural differences, the place feels more diverse than its visible minority numbers would suggest.

Obviously... Montreal > Brownsville, lol, just trying to tease out that analogy.
Well, that kind of diversity is pretty common in the "Old World". For example, all those linguistic minorities in Europe (eg. the Catalans, Scots etc.) or places in Africa and Asia where dialects and languages are really numerous even though North Americans might see all those language speakers as one "race".

On the other hand racial diversity without linguistic diversity is more common in the "New World", for example, having Afro-Brazilians, Brazilians of various European descent, even Japanese Brazilians who all speak Portuguese only, or assimilated Asian-Americans, Hispanic Americans, African-Americans and white Americans who are monolingual English speakers. A lot of this is the result of forced assimilation of course (among native people in the Americas, the descendants of the Atlantic slave trade), one colonist group replacing or assimilating another (eg. Spanish replaced by English in former New Spain), plus giving up of heritage languages by voluntary immigrants in order to "fit in".
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  #48  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2017, 5:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
Well, that kind of diversity is pretty common in the "Old World". For example, all those linguistic minorities in Europe (eg. the Catalans, Scots etc.) or places in Africa and Asia where dialects and languages are really numerous even though North Americans might see all those language speakers as one "race".

On the other hand racial diversity without linguistic diversity is more common in the "New World", for example, having Afro-Brazilians, Brazilians of various European descent, even Japanese Brazilians who all speak Portuguese only, or assimilated Asian-Americans, Hispanic Americans, African-Americans and white Americans who are monolingual English speakers.
Agreed. It's interesting Canada has a bit of both in different areas.

Just for numbers sake, it looks like about 17.9% of people in the Montreal CMA belong to the Anglophone community.
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  #49  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2017, 5:53 PM
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Montreal seems to stand out, I'd even say, among the Western Hemisphere in terms of a major city with bilingual and even multilingual (if you include allophones separately too among English and French speakers) influence. Considering French, English and immigrant language speakers (taken as a whole) all have at least double digit percentages, I think that's a fairly unique thing in the New World.

American cities might have English and Spanish, but nowhere near the same equal relationship between them as English and French. Latin America has mostly Spanish or Portuguese, with some indigenous languages or creoles, but I don't think again there's the same relatively co-dominant relationship as in Montreal.

Montreal's situation is almost more a EU-like one (the way many European languages co-exist), with English and French in Canada rather than being similar linguistically to other places in Anglo-America or Latin America.
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  #50  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2017, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post

Montreal's situation is almost more a EU-like one (the way many European languages co-exist), with English and French in Canada rather than being similar linguistically to other places in Anglo-America or Latin America.
Wading into controversial SSP Canada territory there...
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  #51  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2017, 8:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
Even within the wider context of North America, Asian-Canadians as a share of the two Alberta cities are higher than almost all major US cities outside California or Hawaii, and even the city of LA. Yet would the average person, even those familiar with Canadian cities, feel that Calgary or Edmonton is on average, more "Asian" than Los Angeles?
I agree that Calgary and Edmonton are more diverse than given credit for. Of course there are about as many Asians in the L.A. area as there are people in Greater Vancouver or in Calgary/Edmonton combined so...

I don't think Canadians associate Asians with L.A. in particular. I think they'd associate it more with its huge Mexican American/Hispanic population and with Hollywood/celebrities etc. In the 90s a lot of Canadians seemed to think L.A. was a city of "blacks and whites" (thanks to the L.A. riots, O.J. Simpson trial and the West Coast rap scene), even though the Hispanic population was already much larger than the Black population then and even the Asian population was probably about the same.

Last edited by Docere; Nov 8, 2017 at 9:48 PM.
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  #52  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2017, 10:12 PM
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I gather that this means that of the 8.5% (total immigrants), 15.5%, and 5.1% are first and second generation respectively, otherwise the numbers could be added up for a total of 29.1 %, which seems high for that area (or maybe it isn't?). However, as noted above, first and second generations would not be considered immigrants, so either way the numbers seem confusing. And, yes, some NL'ers do speak of being first or second generation Canadian (I would be first gen).
They were listed in separate lines, so I assume they're separate groups. 29.1% seems high, yes, but if there was a neighbourhood where it could be possible in St. John's, mine is definitely among the top 2-3.
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  #53  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2017, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
I think it's fair to separately distinguish visible minorities, but also worth noting the kind of linguistic diversity we're talking about in respect of Montreal.

Maybe this is similar to going to say, Brownsville, TX, which is... I don't know, I'm guessing, but 75% Hispanic but probably majority White. While it is majority White, there's something very different about Brownsville when compared to other similarly sized US towns in say, the Midwest. The non-Hispanic Whites and the Hispanic Whites interact, but at the same time appear to belong to different communities. And because of the linguistic and cultural differences, the place feels more diverse than its visible minority numbers would suggest.

Obviously... Montreal > Brownsville, lol, just trying to tease out that analogy.
The best example I like to give of this is of a sleepy American town that is 50% old stock American whites and 50% old stock American blacks, i.e. where everybody in the phone book has names like John Smith and is an unilingual American English speaker.

On paper, the place is quite diverse culturally -- 50% vismin!
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  #54  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2017, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
yea, but worth noting that whites aren't entirely homogeneous either. and i'm not just trying to be pedantic, but in some cities, like Montreal, it's probably worth noting the Anglo minority as a separate minority group.

Montreal is a city that feels a lot more multicultural than the visible minority numbers and aboriginal numbers would suggest.
One could make similar divisions for east Asians, south Asians, MENA nations, latin America, Africans, etc.

From a caucasian pov, they see themselves a minority in Toronto and Vancouver because they see everyone who's non-white as 1 group of people. In reality white people are 4-5 times as prevalent as south Asians, 5-6 times as prevalent as east Asians, 4-5 times as prevalent as Black people, 20 times as prevalent as latin Americans.

Arguing that white people are a minority dismisses the fact that visible minorities aren't one block of people; they are about 5 major groups. If you're going to further divide white along linguistic/cultural lines one has to further divide east Asians along linguistic/cultural lines, south Asians along linguistic/cultural lines, MENA nationalities along linguistic/cultural lines, Africans along linguistic/cultural lines, and latin Americans along linguistic/cultural lines.

Any way you slice it, the number of white people dwarfs that of the next largest block (east Asians).
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  #55  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2017, 11:43 PM
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One could make similar divisions for east Asians, south Asians, MENA nations, latin America, Africans, etc.
Of course, and we should.


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From a caucasian pov, they see themselves a minority in Toronto and Vancouver because they see everyone who's non-white as 1 group of people.
Not always. In Toronto? Yea, probably 95% of the time, unless they're very recent migrants, White people might see themselves as a community of sorts. However, in a place like Montreal it could be different. I don't think the Francophone White folks view the Anglophone White folks all that differently from the South Asians in Montreal. Well, maybe they do view them differently from South Asians, I don't know, but just that they may not view them as "one of us".

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Arguing that white people are a minority dismisses the fact that visible minorities aren't one block of people; they are about 5 major groups. If you're going to further divide white along linguistic/cultural lines one has to further divide east Asians along linguistic/cultural lines, south Asians along linguistic/cultural lines, MENA nationalities along linguistic/cultural lines, Africans along linguistic/cultural lines, and latin Americans along linguistic/cultural lines.

Any way you slice it, the number of white people dwarfs that of the next largest block (east Asians).
Agreed.
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  #56  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2017, 11:46 PM
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The best example I like to give of this is of a sleepy American town that is 50% old stock American whites and 50% old stock American blacks, i.e. where everybody in the phone book has names like John Smith and is an unilingual American English speaker.

On paper, the place is quite diverse culturally -- 50% vismin!
Eh, not sure if that's a great example. I think African Americans across the United States, including descendants of slaves who have been here for centuries, have developed and maintained a distinct culture. Of course, White American culture and African American culture have deeply influenced one another, and given the population numbers, the influence is greater one-way than the other. But all said, African Americans, especially in communities where they have a sizable presence, have retained cultural distinctiveness. You can see this in language, too, with unique sociolects that have largely been preserved.
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  #57  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 12:04 AM
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I don't think Canadians associate Asians with L.A. in particular. I think they'd associate it more with its huge Mexican American/Hispanic population and with Hollywood/celebrities etc. In the 90s a lot of Canadians seemed to think L.A. was a city of "blacks and whites" (thanks to the L.A. riots, O.J. Simpson trial and the West Coast rap scene), even though the Hispanic population was already much larger than the Black population then and even the Asian population was probably about the same.
Well, a lot of American cities in general are portrayed as consisting of "blacks and whites" with other minorities (Hispanics, Asians, native Americans etc.) much more rarely depicted, and in some cases, it's only recently that some of the smaller minority groups' under-representation in media got attention.

Up until the 1940s and 1950s, African Americans were still significantly underrepresented in media, despite making up the largest racial minority in American history (double digit percentages for at least a good part of a couple centuries). Throughout the later half of the 20th century, black Americans eventually got better media coverage. Later still, did Hispanic Americans start to get a significant media presence. (East) Asian Americans are the current or contemporary group I hear about being vocal about media coverage. South Asians are even later than East Asians in American media portrayals and also vocal about representation now.

As previously mentioned, there's some "lag time" for diversity to trickle down into popular consciousness, and it often takes a generation or more.

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Of course, and we should.




Not always. In Toronto? Yea, probably 95% of the time, unless they're very recent migrants, White people might see themselves as a community of sorts. However, in a place like Montreal it could be different. I don't think the Francophone White folks view the Anglophone White folks all that differently from the South Asians in Montreal. Well, maybe they do view them differently from South Asians, I don't know, but just that they may not view them as "one of us".



Agreed.
Up until the 90s, some European Canadian groups in Toronto were very vocal about not wanting their identity confused with other groups (eg. the Greek vs. Macedonian identity thing).

A lot of racial or "pan-ethnic" identities are really products of the "New World" as I've discussed before in another thread. I mean much has been made of the fact that Irish, Italians etc. who immigrated once were not only fiercely proud of their national identity (prior to immigrating to the US) but often smaller ethnic groupings (eg. Sicilian), but only generations later became seen as or saw themselves as "white Americans". Likewise, Chinese or Japanese only became, and saw themselves as "Asian-Americans" in the 1960s or later, and African immigrants such as Nigerians often still have ambivalent feelings about whether or not they identify as "African American" but many of their children eventually do.
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  #58  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 12:10 AM
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Eh, not sure if that's a great example. I think African Americans across the United States, including descendants of slaves who have been here for centuries, have developed and maintained a distinct culture. Of course, White American culture and African American culture have deeply influenced one another, and given the population numbers, the influence is greater one-way than the other. But all said, African Americans, especially in communities where they have a sizable presence, have retained cultural distinctiveness. You can see this in language, too, with unique sociolects that have largely been preserved.
True, even though the cultural distinctiveness retained may not be on average, as strong as of the African elements surviving in Afro-Caribbean or Afro-Latin Americans' cultures (eg. Creole languages like Jamaican patois or religious traditions like Santeria), it is still present.

For example, among African Americans, the Gullah language (which is a creole) and culture of Georgia and South Carolina has retained African influence more than most other African American communities, and in that sense is a bit more like Afro-Caribbean cultures like the Bahamas.
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  #59  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 12:19 AM
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I agree that Calgary and Edmonton are more diverse than given credit for. Of course there are about as many Asians in the L.A. area as there are people in Greater Vancouver or in Calgary/Edmonton combined so...
That raises an interesting point. Is it the absolute or relative numbers of a community that are more influential in giving it visibility or clout?

African Americans nationwide in the US are a larger population than Canada's entire population.

Hispanic Americans or even just the population of Spanish speakers in the US, too is larger than Canada's, and is at or over the population of Spain itself, and lags only behind Mexico and Colombia in population in terms of comparisons to the countries of the Spanish-speaking world.

Asian Americans, while smaller in number, still surpass 17 million and are the equivalent of half of Canada's population.
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  #60  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 12:25 AM
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Canadian minorities also seem to be underrepresented because even setting aside whether or not they're depicted in Canadian media, since Canadians tune in to American media mostly, they may even be more familiar with American depictions of American ethnic minorities in big cities like LA or NYC than with Canadian visible minorities in other cities.

A Canadian might know about the African American presence from mass media but know little about the Black Nova Scotian presence because Nova Scotia isn't on their radar, if they live in say Vancouver.

Additionally, other western countries are already getting very diverse (think about London, Paris, Sydney etc.) yet some Americans or Canadians still are only faintly aware of for example, Jamaican Londoners, Arab Parisians, or Chinese Sydneysiders because these places are depicted still as mostly white.
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