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  #41  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2013, 2:00 PM
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Originally Posted by earl69 View Post
Best: Calgary. End of discussion.
I know that Calgary enjoys fabulous growth, but does that mean that Calgarians have to be arrogant about it ? Not very classy.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2013, 2:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Martin Mtl View Post
I know that Calgary enjoys fabulous growth, but does that mean that Calgarians have to be arrogant about it ? Not very classy.
2 words: "new money".

The resource towns in Australia like Perth have similar reputations (arrogant blowhards). Then when the next resource bust happens, they'll blame the Eastern bastards rather than their lack of foresight I'm sure...
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  #43  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2013, 2:28 AM
sunsetmountainland sunsetmountainland is offline
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Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
Much of Ontario seems to be turning into a rust belt, with no end in sight...
To be honest, I was suprised with all the cities from Ontario. I understand that the province has a huge population so that I would see cities from Ontario on this list. However, I expected to also see it, share some with Quebec cities and the Atlantic provinces. I expected Cape Breton Windsor and St Catherines The rest was somewhat of a suprise.

It would be interesting to know the full list. I wonder where Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver would fit in.
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  #44  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2013, 3:09 AM
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Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
Much of Ontario seems to be turning into a rust belt, with no end in sight...
While everyone's expecting a bubble (and I'm no expert--maybe it's coming), there are still bidding wars for houses in Toronto, and now Hamilton, too. Manufacturing plants are popping up all over the place; it's really noticeable in Stratford, where I live. That new Toyota plant down the road in Woodstock is a serious economic engine, with spin-off industries sprouting up everywhere.

There's no sense of decline around here that I can see. We all know that Toronto's booming, we've all seen the shots of the skyline and the cranes, and those kinds of things tend to inform part of our impression of how things are going, rightly or wrongly.

There's no exodus. While there's an awareness that there are jobs to be had in Alberta, they tend to be characterized as blue-collar offerings for young guys who want to make a fast buck in an oil field. There's no sense that there's a strong draw away from Ontario that I can tell. Indeed, this is still considered a popular destination. Anecdotally, I'm acquainted with quite a few natives of western provinces in their twenties and thirties who came here for professional or high-paying occupational jobs (electricians, etc.), while none of the children of my friends or acquaintances have moved out west. That's just anecdotal, obviously, but still, I'd feel a lot differently if I knew of a lot of 25-year-olds complaining about a lack of jobs and moving away.

I think some people don't understand how massive Ontario is in a Canadian context. At over 13.5 million it would be at the top of the heap of the second tier of U.S. states (the first tier for population being California, Texas, New York and Florida, of course). You've got lots of everything here: like St. Catharines, for example, which is not really doing all that well; or the tech triangle, which is bursting at the seams. Neither place definitively represents the province, though the Googlified ethos in Kitchener-Waterloo is closer to the "truth" about Ontario than the sadsack former GM employees of St. Catharines are.
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  #45  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2013, 5:18 AM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
While everyone's expecting a bubble (and I'm no expert--maybe it's coming), there are still bidding wars for houses in Toronto, and now Hamilton, too. Manufacturing plants are popping up all over the place; it's really noticeable in Stratford, where I live. That new Toyota plant down the road in Woodstock is a serious economic engine, with spin-off industries sprouting up everywhere.

There's no sense of decline around here that I can see. We all know that Toronto's booming, we've all seen the shots of the skyline and the cranes, and those kinds of things tend to inform part of our impression of how things are going, rightly or wrongly.

There's no exodus. While there's an awareness that there are jobs to be had in Alberta, they tend to be characterized as blue-collar offerings for young guys who want to make a fast buck in an oil field. There's no sense that there's a strong draw away from Ontario that I can tell. Indeed, this is still considered a popular destination. Anecdotally, I'm acquainted with quite a few natives of western provinces in their twenties and thirties who came here for professional or high-paying occupational jobs (electricians, etc.), while none of the children of my friends or acquaintances have moved out west. That's just anecdotal, obviously, but still, I'd feel a lot differently if I knew of a lot of 25-year-olds complaining about a lack of jobs and moving away.

I think some people don't understand how massive Ontario is in a Canadian context. At over 13.5 million it would be at the top of the heap of the second tier of U.S. states (the first tier for population being California, Texas, New York and Florida, of course). You've got lots of everything here: like St. Catharines, for example, which is not really doing all that well; or the tech triangle, which is bursting at the seams. Neither place definitively represents the province, though the Googlified ethos in Kitchener-Waterloo is closer to the "truth" about Ontario than the sadsack former GM employees of St. Catharines are.
The Ontario of the Toronto area is vastly different from Southwestern Ontario. While Toronto booms, cities like London and Windsor are dying. There has been an exodus from the London area in recent years, although some of that has been within the province (such as myself); I do know a number of people who have gone to Alberta, Saskatchewan, and BC.
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  #46  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2013, 3:24 AM
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Niagara has an economy that is on fragile ground. Most of the problem isn't Niagara Falls, which has a healthy tourism economy, but rather the more manufacturing towns of Welland and St Catharines. These are also port cities, so they still have jobs related to the Welland Canal and shipping. The job market is not as dire as Buffalo over here in the US, but its certainly not doing great west of the Falls.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2013, 3:25 AM
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Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
The Ontario of the Toronto area is vastly different from Southwestern Ontario. While Toronto booms, cities like London and Windsor are dying. There has been an exodus from the London area in recent years, although some of that has been within the province (such as myself); I do know a number of people who have gone to Alberta, Saskatchewan, and BC.
While I'm not an expert on southwestern Ontario issues, doesn't London have some diversification? UWO seems to give the area some R&D hope, there is a very powerful health science centre there among others.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2013, 12:09 PM
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While I'm not an expert on southwestern Ontario issues, doesn't London have some diversification? UWO seems to give the area some R&D hope, there is a very powerful health science centre there among others.
When I think of London, I think of the university, insurance, the regional medical facilities and the brewery. It's manufacturing base has declined as it has elsewhere in Ontario. Things can change, but the economy seems pretty static for the time being. It's a bit like Kingston in that regard.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2013, 1:18 PM
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Originally Posted by manny_santos View Post
The Ontario of the Toronto area is vastly different from Southwestern Ontario. While Toronto booms, cities like London and Windsor are dying. There has been an exodus from the London area in recent years, although some of that has been within the province (such as myself); I do know a number of people who have gone to Alberta, Saskatchewan, and BC.
I wouldn't go so far as to say London and Windsor are dying, both cities are still growing in population, just not by a lot. There have been many people returning to Windsor after moving out west looking for work. Windsor's economy is much more diversified now than a decade ago, and the city is in much better shape financially, with it's economy expected to grow by 2.4% this year, better than many other canadian cities.

http://www.conferenceboard.ca/press/...s_in_2013.aspx
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  #50  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2013, 2:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
While everyone's expecting a bubble (and I'm no expert--maybe it's coming), there are still bidding wars for houses in Toronto, and now Hamilton, too. Manufacturing plants are popping up all over the place; it's really noticeable in Stratford, where I live. That new Toyota plant down the road in Woodstock is a serious economic engine, with spin-off industries sprouting up everywhere.

There's no sense of decline around here that I can see. We all know that Toronto's booming, we've all seen the shots of the skyline and the cranes, and those kinds of things tend to inform part of our impression of how things are going, rightly or wrongly.

There's no exodus. While there's an awareness that there are jobs to be had in Alberta, they tend to be characterized as blue-collar offerings for young guys who want to make a fast buck in an oil field. There's no sense that there's a strong draw away from Ontario that I can tell. Indeed, this is still considered a popular destination. Anecdotally, I'm acquainted with quite a few natives of western provinces in their twenties and thirties who came here for professional or high-paying occupational jobs (electricians, etc.), while none of the children of my friends or acquaintances have moved out west. That's just anecdotal, obviously, but still, I'd feel a lot differently if I knew of a lot of 25-year-olds complaining about a lack of jobs and moving away.

I think some people don't understand how massive Ontario is in a Canadian context. At over 13.5 million it would be at the top of the heap of the second tier of U.S. states (the first tier for population being California, Texas, New York and Florida, of course). You've got lots of everything here: like St. Catharines, for example, which is not really doing all that well; or the tech triangle, which is bursting at the seams. Neither place definitively represents the province, though the Googlified ethos in Kitchener-Waterloo is closer to the "truth" about Ontario than the sadsack former GM employees of St. Catharines are.
If the tech triangle is bursting at its seams, why is it 2nd worst in Canada? It is too heavily dependent on RIM/Blackberry which has collapsed big time under bad management. Agreed about the GTA but it isn't entirely representative of Ontario as a whole right now.

Most smaller cities in Ontario are doing horrible right now too.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2013, 2:53 PM
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Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
If the tech triangle is bursting at its seams, why is it 2nd worst in Canada? It is too heavily dependent on RIM/Blackberry which has collapsed big time under bad management. Agreed about the GTA but it isn't entirely representative of Ontario as a whole right now.

Most smaller cities in Ontario are doing horrible right now too.
I could speculate that several things are at play in K-C-W as "second worst place for job hunters". First, the population is still growing by about 7,000 people a year, so significant numbers of job hunters at a time when the local economy is growing more slowly than had been the case for several years. Second, large numbers of workers affected by the decline in the traditional blue collar sector are still hunting for alternate employment (next big group to go will be the 1,200 still working at Schneiders which will close by late 2014). Third, the high tech jobs, although specialized, are highly sought after and could be attracting significant numbers of applicants.

Re RIM, just to note that it seems more a factor to outsiders than it does to those living here. Everyone wants it to do well, but the layoffs seemed to have very little impact locally (although it likely added to the number of applicants for available jobs). There are other substantial high tech firms in the Region and we are cranking out new high tech start-ups at an astonishing rate (I have this week seen a comment that it's averaging one a day!).
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  #52  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2013, 3:04 PM
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I hope for Waterloo's sake that BlackBerry continues the reversal of the past two years. The stock is up over 100% on it's 52 week low, but if they can't regain at least part of the enormous market share they once had it doesn't mean much. The amount of positive spin-offs that have been created in the area are immeasurable.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2013, 3:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Martin Mtl View Post
I know that Calgary enjoys fabulous growth, but does that mean that Calgarians have to be arrogant about it ? Not very classy.
It's not arrogance when it's true.

You have to understand how things look from out here. We've been told for years now that our economy is gonna burst. That oil prices will crater. That the global economy is gonna go bust, and take everyone down with it. SSP is DAILY full of people complaining they can't find jobs, that things are terrible where they are, that this recession is causing problems X, Y, and Z. We hear how housing is virtually unaffordable to everyone but the extreme rich in places like Toronto and Vancouver.

And yet we sit here in Calgary, with jobs aplenty, money continually flowing - during the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. This city barely skipped a beat. We had a few less construction cranes for a couple of years and my house went down marginally in value, and that's been the entirety of this "recession".

And even when things went to complete shit here in the early 80s - in terms of the doom-and-gloom "Calgary will die when oil prices go down" which is what we continue to hear even today - the city lost population ONCE. There were a few lean years. And then the city roared back and was prospering again - LONG BEFORE OIL PRICES ROSE.

It's hard not to have a little swagger when the city seems unbeatable. Again, especially when all you hear are complaints from the rest of the country about how hard things are out there. It's an entirely different universe here. Let's just say that the entire existence of a thread like this is ... perplexing. It's like coming from Canada, and stumbling onto a "whose drinking water is the safest to drink today" thread from Latin America or something. In Soviet Calgary, Jobs find You.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2013, 3:51 PM
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It's not arrogance when it's true.

You have to understand how things look from out here. We've been told for years now that our economy is gonna burst. That oil prices will crater. That the global economy is gonna go bust, and take everyone down with it. SSP is DAILY full of people complaining they can't find jobs, that things are terrible where they are, that this recession is causing problems X, Y, and Z. We hear how housing is virtually unaffordable to everyone but the extreme rich in places like Toronto and Vancouver.

And yet we sit here in Calgary, with jobs aplenty, money continually flowing - during the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. This city barely skipped a beat. We had a few less construction cranes for a couple of years and my house went down marginally in value, and that's been the entirety of this "recession".

And even when things went to complete shit here in the early 80s - in terms of the doom-and-gloom "Calgary will die when oil prices go down" which is what we continue to hear even today - the city lost population ONCE. There were a few lean years. And then the city roared back and was prospering again - LONG BEFORE OIL PRICES ROSE.

It's hard not to have a little swagger when the city seems unbeatable. Again, especially when all you hear are complaints from the rest of the country about how hard things are out there. It's an entirely different universe here. Let's just say that the entire existence of a thread like this is ... perplexing. It's like coming from Canada, and stumbling onto a "whose drinking water is the safest to drink today" thread from Latin America or something. In Soviet Calgary, Jobs find You.
Calgary will continue to boom for quite a long time, probably. But no city is robust forever. I know people have been predicting the end of the boom for years, but as a former Calgarian, I know there's a sense in the city of being somehow unique or immune to larger forces--of being special and different, somehow. But no place is special and different. Every city and region is subject to the same economic push and pull. Calgary has been in a blessed place for decades, and even its hard periods haven't been so hard. But eventually--and maybe a long time from now--that will change.

I'd also add that there is a downside to Alberta's boom, including the fastest-growing homeless population in Canada. (it's almost as large as Toronto's).

But for now, enjoy the good times!
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  #55  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2013, 4:37 PM
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Calgary will continue to boom for quite a long time, probably. But no city is robust forever. I know people have been predicting the end of the boom for years, but as a former Calgarian, I know there's a sense in the city of being somehow unique or immune to larger forces--of being special and different, somehow. But no place is special and different. Every city and region is subject to the same economic push and pull. Calgary has been in a blessed place for decades, and even its hard periods haven't been so hard. But eventually--and maybe a long time from now--that will change.
Yes, and given enough time Canada will no longer be a nation, North America won't be "the 1st world" anymore, and humanity will be extinct. I'm not sure what "be happy now, but evennnntttuuuualllllyyy things won't be so good" brings to the discussion. Other than sour grapes.

Perhaps I've missed something, but I've not heard the stories of Calgarians making 100-year investments predicated on the city booming forever. So what exactly are people trying to say with the annual "hey, the good times will end someday" comments?

Should we not celebrate Canada's current prosperity and high ranking in the world, because "some day" it won't be true anymore?

Not trying to single you out, but I've just always been fascinated at the constant litany of "some day Calgary will bust" that I've experienced for... well, my entire life. I think Calgary feels "special and different" because I can think of no other place that is so continually reminded that its success is only fleeting.
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  #56  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2013, 4:56 PM
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I figured, given the low unemployment, that Quebec City would be attractive for those in the east...or is the language issue a barrier?
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  #57  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2013, 5:19 PM
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I figured, given the low unemployment, that Quebec City would be attractive for those in the east...or is the language issue a barrier?
I would remove the word "issue" from your sentence.

Is the language a barrier for Ontarians and people from the maritimes that don't master French?...well I think it's evident in a city that is close to 100% French speaking. But for those that are qualified and fully fluent in the language, I don't see any problems. But it is a total immersion in comparison to Montréal. Not a lot of anglophones outside of Québec (and even within) are interested by this (based on the census data).
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  #58  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2013, 5:22 PM
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Best: Quebec City. End of discussion.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2013, 5:24 PM
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Canadian oil production over the years with forecast:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ca...60_to_2020.png

Most of this growth will come from the Tar Sands in Alberta and offshore drilling off Newfoundland. With strong growth in the oil / resources sector, these parts of the country should do quite well for some time.
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  #60  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2013, 7:35 PM
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Not trying to single you out, but I've just always been fascinated at the constant litany of "some day Calgary will bust" that I've experienced for... well, my entire life. I think Calgary feels "special and different" because I can think of no other place that is so continually reminded that its success is only fleeting.
I'm not dumping on Alberta or Calgary. I agree the much of the nudge-nudge about the end of oil, etc., is due to jealousy--everybody wants what Alberta has right now.

I just mean that, as an Abertan myself (don't live there now, but was raised and spent my young adulthood there), there does seem to be a sense of invincibility, or a sense of having figured it all out, of being special or harder workers. As if assembly-line workers in Ontario or fishermen in the Maritimes (the latter of whom risk their lives in the line of work) aren't just as hard working.

The success is due to geography (and later, smart, hard-working people who've capitalized on that), but it's made into some intrinsic provincial "Alberta Advantage" virtue, which is silly. As silly as B.C.ers who believe they have some harmonious relationship with nature that other Canadians don't understand, or SW Ontarians who believe multiculturalism is only really understood in the GTA.

Calgary is gonna be just fine. It's not the success that irks me, it's the occasional attitude that Alberta is successful because they've figured something out (usually some cliches about low taxes personal freedoms and work-hard/play-hard mentality, etc.) that nobody else has.
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