Green Line LRT - $4.6 Billion Project

[andasen]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

The basic takeaway from the info session was that the two 12th Ave alignments were preferred over the two 10th Ave. The underground one is substantially better than the surface, but is obviously much more money. I personally think most of the preference for 12th Ave is a well-meaning but misguided approach that betrays a suburban viewpoint that fundamentally does not understand urban spaces, but to be fair that could be Calgary's motto if it fit on the letterhead.

The engagement page has slightly more details, the displays from last night's open house are supposed to go up shortly.

Dare say how does the 12th ave option betray a suburban point of view. Its a grade separated route that expands the dense urban area within the catchment area for the the C-train system

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by Myke

According to the Beltline Neighbourhoods Association, 12th ave underground came out on top.

http://www.beltlineyyc.ca/12_ave_und...nd_ranks_first

I'm starting to have concerns on the final price tag of this project.

The following underground sections are nice to have but unnecessary and adds much cost in my opinion:

16th ave N -> 7th ave N
2nd st W -> Macleod trail

I don't see anything wrong with only having two lanes of traffic on Centre street south of 16th ave. As long as appropriate walking and cycling connections are integrated into the street, the train will not act as a barrier.

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by andasen

Dare say how does the 12th ave option betray a suburban point of view. Its a grade separated route that expands the dense urban area within the catchment area for the the C-train system

Exactly my point. (I underlined the bit.)

In the suburbs, adding an LRT station expands the catchment area of the C-train system; for example, when they did the last NE extension, much of Martindale and Saddle Ridge came within walking distance of a C-train station, which can be used to take the train to the downtown and make any connections needed.

All of the Beltline is already within walking distance of a C-train station, and none of the western half is within walking distance of any Green line stations; building a green line station here vs. there only affects access to trips from half the Beltline to destinations along the Green line. Which is a limited set of destinations; maybe 25% of potential destinations from the Beltline. (It's one of three LRT lines, but the red line has substantially more along it - malls, postsecondary, hospitals - and some destinations like Bowness and Marda Loop are still best accessed by bus from the downtown).

So while moving a station a little bit closer to the centre of, say, Ogden might be worth the effort since 90% of transit trips are headed via that LRT station, in the Beltline it's a much more modest role since the community already contains one LRT station and is fairly well serviced by the dozen downtown.

That said, it's a modest improvement and if the City thinks it can be done at the same price or cheaper than 10th with no more delay to through-running passengers, then I'm cool with it.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

I'm starting to have concerns on the final price tag of this project.

The following underground sections are nice to have but unnecessary and adds much cost in my opinion:

16th ave N -> 7th ave N
2nd st W -> Macleod trail

One of the reasons that Calgary Transit would prefer to have grade separation at Macleod is to avoid having to battle with the Roads Department. They are desperate to avoid the situation they have on the Red Line with mode priority when crossing 4th, 5th and 6th.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

I don't see anything wrong with only having two lanes of traffic on Centre street south of 16th ave. As long as appropriate walking and cycling connections are integrated into the street, the train will not act as a barrier.

I don't particularly care about the impact on car commuters (though Centre will be a claustrophobic, congested, unpleasant gongshow with LRT down the middle - it is simply too narrow to become what the city envisions). What I do care about though, is that every additional grade crossing creates additional unreliability and a potential failure point for the LRT, as well as slowing it down considerably. We have so much evidence of the disadvantages of grade crossings and quasi-street running (7th ave) in Calgary, I'm surprised anyone would desire more.

[Blue_Cypress]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

I'm starting to have concerns on the final price tag of this project.

The following underground sections are nice to have but unnecessary and adds much cost in my opinion:

16th ave N -> 7th ave N
2nd st W -> Macleod trail

I don't see anything wrong with only having two lanes of traffic on Centre street south of 16th ave. As long as appropriate walking and cycling connections are integrated into the street, the train will not act as a barrier.

Have you ever even driven on that stretch of center street?

I have.

Traffic consolidates from several feeder streets in this area. It's a significant enough difficulty that a lane reversal system was installed. Traffic in this area still regularly comes to a standstill condition, despite having three full lanes available for peak flow conditions.

And yet somehow you believe that despite decades of experience contrary, we should now reduce peak flow capacity through this area to 1/3 of what is now available? and that somehow there will also be room to add bike lanes?
Oh, and there's already a bike lane system in place, along 2nd street, which is heavily trafficked.

Redundancy, inefficiency, and ignorance of actual conditions! That's a winning combination, shooter.

You're a madman.

[UofC.engineer]

I understand where you guys are coming from. The road moves lots of vehicles at peak hours. I apologize for my lack of clarity, I ment to say cross cycling routes. Centre street does not need bike lanes in my opinion.
I live in Crescent Heights and I walk and drive that stretch often and I think the city needs to ask the following questions.

Where are the cars on Centre coming from and going to? How many people that drive that stretch of road live within the Greenline catchment area? If the road capacity were reduced would it encourage higher transit ridership?

What is the accurate price difference between surface and underground options south of 16th ave to the river?

When the centre street bridge closed for repairs in 2000 what was the impact on traffic?

Traffic volume map:
http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation...ow-DT-2015.pdf
24,000 vehicles per day

[sim]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

Exactly my point. (I underlined the bit.)

In the suburbs, adding an LRT station expands the catchment area of the C-train system; for example, when they did the last NE extension, much of Martindale and Saddle Ridge came within walking distance of a C-train station, which can be used to take the train to the downtown and make any connections needed.

All of the Beltline is already within walking distance of a C-train station, and none of the western half is within walking distance of any Green line stations; building a green line station here vs. there only affects access to trips from half the Beltline to destinations along the Green line. Which is a limited set of destinations; maybe 25% of potential destinations from the Beltline. (It's one of three LRT lines, but the red line has substantially more along it - malls, postsecondary, hospitals - and some destinations like Bowness and Marda Loop are still best accessed by bus from the downtown).

So while moving a station a little bit closer to the centre of, say, Ogden might be worth the effort since 90% of transit trips are headed via that LRT station, in the Beltline it's a much more modest role since the community already contains one LRT station and is fairly well serviced by the dozen downtown.

That said, it's a modest improvement and if the City thinks it can be done at the same price or cheaper than 10th with no more delay to through-running passengers, then I'm cool with it.

I can readily accept the assessment in and of itself, but I really can't see how this is a suburban point of view. I dare say that the opposite is true.

[ClaytonA]

double post

[ClaytonA]

At grade should be a streetcar-stop at all intersections or at least have crossing for all intersections - or as fast transit it is a large barrier to all other modes of transportation across it (not lengthwise). If people want the streetcar, then the city should be requiring changes in zoning to make the appropriate level of density (residences/employment), so the LRT has appropriate ridership.

Half-a$$ing it, trying to do something in between gets you 16Ave with empty lots, or 36 St NE. If the city isn't ready to do either of the above (put it grade separated/increase density & go slow), then the city is not ready for this transit yet. Put it underground until McKnight where the street isn't really a grid and the ROW is wider. Run buses to the end of what you can build if the city isn't ready for it. Wasn't Keating saying up to 16Ave is a start on the north part? He's right. Maybe that's as far north as it should go as LRT.

[ClaytonA]

Beltline is dense enough, or will be, for something 7 ave like. Still think it will screw other modes, and itself at surface. Calgary gets what it pays for though.

If it goes underground down 12 Ave, then maybe the line should go under the Elbow to mitigate flooding issues and surface by the Crossroads station in Ramsay instead of the loop north to the CPR line and then elevated through Inglewood-Ramsay back south. Scope creep, but that's what seems to be happening...It'll be interesting to hear/watch/read the reasons for the shift. How much did the parkade access impacts. etc impact 10 Ave?

With the CPR as the main barrier, how much does this impact on/offs at Centre St and 4 St SE that are going to origins/destinations north of the CPR? Most efficient seemed to be right next to the crossings of that barrier for the entire of downtown.

Really long term it probably makes sense to capture the Beltline with LRT from 17 Ave Se, under the Stampede Grounds and west down 17 Ave SW. Another line down 4 St NW to 5St SW and down south on Elbow Drive SW. Another on 14 St NW and 14 St SW. Make a grid of LRT. LRT that weaves and winds around long term is discounting that long term too much.

[Chadillaccc]

So I've checked the route of the Green Line, cross referencing with the map of the former SE Transitway, and I've realized that the grade separated portion of the Green Line should stretch from the portal on 16 Avenue North (24 Ave?) all the way to after Lynnwood Station, possibly as far as Ogden Station, if the underground Beltline option is approved. That is a distance roughly equivalent to the length of Ottawa's Confederation Line. Does this determination sound correct? Does anyone have insight into where the grade crossings will be?

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

So I've checked the route of the Green Line, cross referencing with the map of the former SE Transitway, and I've realized that the grade separated portion of the Green Line should stretch from the portal on 16 Avenue North (24 Ave?) all the way to after Lynnwood Station, possibly as far as Ogden Station, if the underground Beltline option is approved. That is a distance roughly equivalent to the length of Ottawa's Confederation Line. Does this determination sound correct? Does anyone have insight into where the grade crossings will be?

I think there would still be an at grade crossing at 8th Street SE?

[Chadillaccc]

Shit! That would really suck. Why not just keep it elevated after the bridge going over the Elbow? It will be elevated at least by the time it gets to Inglewood/Ramsay Station.

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Shit! That would really suck. Why not just keep it elevated after the bridge going over the Elbow? It will be elevated at least by the time it gets to Inglewood/Ramsay Station.

You want to keep it at the same elevation as the CP tracks, or else you limit what you can possibly do in the future.

[googspecial]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

I think there would still be an at grade crossing at 8th Street SE?

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Shit! That would really suck. Why not just keep it elevated after the bridge going over the Elbow? It will be elevated at least by the time it gets to Inglewood/Ramsay Station.

I do believe there is a plan (by CP) to close this street crossing all together

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

So I've checked the route of the Green Line, cross referencing with the map of the former SE Transitway, and I've realized that the grade separated portion of the Green Line should stretch from the portal on 16 Avenue North (24 Ave?) all the way to after Lynnwood Station, possibly as far as Ogden Station, if the underground Beltline option is approved. That is a distance roughly equivalent to the length of Ottawa's Confederation Line. Does this determination sound correct? Does anyone have insight into where the grade crossings will be?

As the last poster says, CP is closing 8th Street anyway.

But why does it even matter? Just so we have a longer grade separated portion than Ottawa? We already have a far more expansive LRT system than Ottawa will have soon, and the difference will only become larger after the Green Line is built. Who cares if it is grade separated? Ottawa will probably put in some crossings in the future expansions anyway.

Besides, we already have 16+km grade separated from Tuscany to Lions Park. So we will be beating them on that obscure metric for some time.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

As the last poster says, CP is closing 8th Street anyway.

But why does it even matter? Just so we have a longer grade separated portion than Ottawa? We already have a far more expansive LRT system than Ottawa will have soon, and the difference will only become larger after the Green Line is built. Who cares if it is grade separated? Ottawa will probably put in some crossings in the future expansions anyway.

Besides, we already have 16+km grade separated from Tuscany to Lions Park. So we will be beating them on that obscure metric for some time.

Re the bolded part above:

People who care about safety and making sure all forms of transportation can move efficiently. I'm sure CP loves hearing such comments because it gives them justification for never working with the city, etc. to get rid of level crossings in areas where they should not be.

As for which city has the most grade separated track you're reading too much into one comment. The vast majority of people don't care as they know there are lots of other places that have systems with way longer stretches. What we should be caring about is a properly designed system which unfortunately we'll never get with the people running the city now.

[technomad]

Overall I still think the c-train is a very solid system, B+ as it stands with A grade potential

But it is frustrating to see some of the recent plans and projects go 90% of the way to full grade separation

You have to figure the ops savings from being able to go automated would pay for upgrading the additional intersections..

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by technomad

Overall I still think the c-train is a very solid system, B+ as it stands with A grade potential

But it is frustrating to see some of the recent plans and projects go 90% of the way to full grade separation

You have to figure the ops savings from being able to go automated would pay for upgrading the additional intersections..

Not if one wants to build 40+km at once!