Green Line LRT - $4.6 Billion Project

[PlexiG]

Originally Posted by suburbia

Oh right. I forgot that generally, the SE Elites disown Penbrooke, Forest Heights and Dover. Agree that there would be additional people who work in downtown from these areas.

If you had read the previous posts before jumping to conclusions you would see the communities I was referring to. Keep in mind this forum topic is for the Green Line LRT, so yes, I used the SE population growth that the line is going to serve for my numbers. Sorry if it offended you.

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by technomad

I realize there will be a bit of chicken/egg at play, but is the deep SE really going to be the top choice for housing for people working in the core?

also realize that for political reasons, the opening phase of the project likely has to stay balanced between SE and NC (don't buy the maint facility argument, surely it could be located in aurora park too?) but with construction inflation out-pacing the norm, it would make sense to build as much of the expensive (tunneled) portion sooner than later.

still think Stephen ave tunnel should be rolled into this project for that reason, also spreads the benefits of the billions spent on the mega-project to more of the city

definitely in the camp of scrapping 9th av station in favor of further tunneling up center. in fact, take the planned 130 mil for the unneeded move of the red line at 25 av and do the same. less enthused about roughed in stations downtown, but could be a viable option for the NC leg, especially if the line is tunneled past mcknight

not sure that could all be done within current budget, even if the SE leg could be deferred to prioritize the funds. but in this case I'd be happy to pay more, to get more from the project

Or better yet, use the money to have the 64th ave intersection on the green line grade separated. At 26,000 vehicles per day it will be the busiest intersection in the city an LRT crosses at-grade. frankly, I'm surprised there isn't more out cry here on SSP Calgary.

http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation...-city-2015.pdf

The other at-grade LRT crossings which are egregiously busy are as follows:

Red line and Heritage: 19,000 vehicles/day
Red Line and 162ave: 20,000 vehicles/day

And the winner of the biggest cluster-fuck, golden raspberry for urban planning, goes to none other than the 32nd ave and 36th street on the blue line at 23,000 vehicles/day!!! Let's hear a round of applause!

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by suburbia

There are lots of "maybe" questions, but they don't prove anything. I could say that "maybe" someone works in Cochrane and their spouse works in the core, and thus if you built LRT to Cochrane it "could" have greater utilization than we think, but common sense suggests that is a stretch.

If you live in the deep south that was a choice you made for whatever reason, but it wasn't because you work in the core. What we do know for certain is that the number of public transit users in the SE is wayyyy low on a per person basis. That's fact. The rest is conjecture or fake news.

Wow, I don't think you could have misconstrued my point harder if you tried.

I was attempting to caution about making generalizations about people's motives for living in a particular area. And I said that one needs to use "real data". Just about the opposite of conjecture and fake news...

I have no intention of "proving" anything by pointing out that some people's decisions involve more subtleties than just "I should live close to my work."

Get data. Make decisions based on data. That's literally all I was attempting to convey.

[technomad]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

Or better yet, use the money to have the 64th ave intersection on the green line grade separated. At 26,000 vehicles per day it will be the busiest intersection in the city an LRT crosses at-grade. frankly, I'm surprised there isn't more out cry here on SSP Calgary.

http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation...-city-2015.pdf

The other at-grade LRT crossings which are egregiously busy are as follows:

Red line and Heritage: 19,000 vehicles/day
Red Line and 162ave: 20,000 vehicles/day

And the winner of the biggest cluster-fuck, golden raspberry for urban planning, goes to none other than the 32nd ave and 36th street on the blue line at 23,000 vehicles/day!!! Let's hear a round of applause!

actually I've long thought that stretch of 36 st / blue line would be a good candidate for freeway upgrades, extend metis trail from mcknight to memorial. lots of infill potential there.

both the red line separations could probably be done for the same price as elevating the line at earlton. still find that proposal a bit odd.. and frustrated I couldn't find cost estimates for the prior 25 av connector plan to compare to

agree that separating green line past 64 would be ideal.. and the more I think about it, the more I think it's worth doing right the first time

wonder if the following could be done for ~4.5 bil?

Green line starts at Aurora park, with the maintenance/storage facility. Moving south, goes into tunnel prior to 64 av. Line continues underground, following the 10 av route in beltline, then surfacing and terminating at railtown.

Redline is Stephen Av subway, gets both red and blue lines their exclusive row

Yellow line would be a BRT route that differs from the eventual SE LRT route, so there wouldn't be any waste from replacing infrastructure during a conversion. no service outage either!

from downtown, takes the newly built 25 av connector over to relatively unused blackfoot trail. in exclusive transit lanes, moves south past southland drive, onto a new transit only road and bridge, connecting with deerfoot east of the bow. new transit only lanes continue on deerfoot to seton, allowing express buses to leave from any of the nearby future LRT stations and go direct to downtown.

all quadrants of the city get a win for the billions spent, and NC leg gets an essentially future proof build from day one, no need for expensive upgrades down the line

[craner]

What are they planning to do with the red line at 25th Ave ?

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by craner

What are they planning to do with the red line at 25th Ave ?

Studying whether the LRT should be grade separated from 25th Avenue, and the design of such.

[technomad]

Originally Posted by craner

What are they planning to do with the red line at 25th Ave ?

they want to grade separate the LRT from 25 av, but rather than build an interchange as long planned, they now want to rebuild and elevate the track by earlton station, and move 25 av north a block to dead end at macleod

I don't like it because for 130 mil, it doesn't really improve LRT service at all, in fact during construction there will be major service outages required! plus it degrades road networks by disconnecting 25 av, and adding another light to macleod. don't really see the win here..

seems like the ~130 mil could do the full 25 av connector route to blackfoot, which actually improves both LRT and road networks, and supports increased density in the area. far better value IMO

from: http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sire...A&itemid=43727



vs.

[fusili]

Am I correct to assume that in the grade separation plan, they would be burying the LRT under the river? Or did I misinterpret that drawing?

[Fuzz]

nm, misread.

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by fusili

Am I correct to assume that in the grade separation plan, they would be burying the LRT under the river? Or did I misinterpret that drawing?

No, the LRT is elevated above the realigned 25th Ave with either an elevated guideway ("concept 1"), or on an embankment ("concept 2"). Here's a working link to the documents: http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sire...a&itemid=43727

[Joborule]

I'm really curious to see what they decide to do with the McKnight crossing. It's indicated that the LRT will be grade separated, but I wonder if they'll go all out and make a full on interchange for Centre/McKnight?

[craner]

This is preposterous. Why is the City considering these absurd gymnastics at 25th Ave.?
To me the logical plan is to continue the LRT underground from the Cemetery Hill tunnel to connect with the tunnel north of Stampede / VP station and the eventual 8th Ave. tunnel. This would allow the Stampede Grounds to really open up to MacLeod Tr. and tie into their plans for a 17th Ave. entry, especially once the Big 4 goes.
I have no idea why the City would want to disconnect 25th Ave. at MacLeod either.
I can think of many superior ways to spend $130M improving the city transportation system.
Seeesh - it boggles my mind these plans have progressed this far.

[craner]

Originally Posted by Joborule

I'm really curious to see what they decide to do with the McKnight crossing. It's indicated that the LRT will be grade separated, but I wonder if they'll go all out and make a full on interchange for Centre/McKnight?

God I hope so - and I know where to find $130M for said interchange.

My preference would be to make McKnight free-flow but I'm sure the interchange design would have lights on Mcknight to keep the Green Line running on Center St. free-flow. IMO they should keep the LRT underground until it's north of McKnight - then they could eliminate any lights on McKnight.

[CalgaryAlex]

Couldn't they just run 25th under both the tracks and Macleod? There is room for exits on the sides of Macleod, especially when the left-hand turn lanes are removed. There's room for a traffic circle on the east side of Macleod, but I don't think that's even necessary. Just put a couple signals down there for left-hand turns and it would be good to go.

Something similar to the Brisebois interchange on Crowchild, without the big exit ramp to the north of it. I'm thinking something that duplicates the south side of that interchange on both sides of Macleod.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by craner

This is preposterous. Why is the City considering these absurd gymnastics at 25th Ave.?
To me the logical plan is to continue the LRT underground from the Cemetery Hill tunnel to connect with the tunnel north of Stampede / VP station and the eventual 8th Ave. tunnel. This would allow the Stampede Grounds to really open up to MacLeod Tr. and tie into their plans for a 17th Ave. entry, especially once the Big 4 goes.
I have no idea why the City would want to disconnect 25th Ave. at MacLeod either.
I can think of many superior ways to spend $130M improving the city transportation system.
Seeesh - it boggles my mind these plans have progressed this far.

If we had an elevation drawing, I think you'd see that the tunnel does not go down - my impression is that it is under Macloed Trail, then under the grass on the west edge of the road, then crosses back, and goes up or is flat. so to get low enough to cross under the river (full tunnel height under the bed is something that sticks in my mind, so track level ~8m under the water line), plus having a 125 m minimally sloped or flat section for a station, and I am not sure the geometry works without a way some significant rebuild (a new tunnel under the cemetery basically.

[O-tacular]

Count me in as one of those confused by this re-alignment of 25th Ave. I see little gain from this. Plus it will make my current shortcut to get to 4th St. more difficult.

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

If we had an elevation drawing, I think you'd see that the tunnel does not go down - my impression is that it is under Macloed Trail, then under the grass on the west edge of the road, then crosses back, and goes up or is flat. so to get low enough to cross under the river (full tunnel height under the bed is something that sticks in my mind, so track level ~8m under the water line), plus having a 125 m minimally sloped or flat section for a station, and I am not sure the geometry works without a way some significant rebuild (a new tunnel under the cemetery basically.

We have a (partial) elevation drawing -- see page 9 at http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sire...&fileid=486291.

Close to the north end of the Cemetery Hill tunnel, the grade hits 6.19% down while traveling northbound. At a quick glance, it looks possible to keep that grade going down and hit the required distance below the riverbed in time for a flat underground station. Not sure if it would require a bit of rebuild in the tunnel.

Not that I would advocate for such a design! Lots of better places for that money right now, IMHO.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Count me in as one of those confused by this re-alignment of 25th Ave. I see little gain from this. Plus it will make my current shortcut to get to 4th St. more difficult.

I get the light timing is tough and frustrating for some, but $130 million seems like a lot of money to fix this issue, which doesn't little to improve transit travel times (apart from the benefits of avoiding the occasional accident by grade separation). Any interchange could limit the redevelopment of adjacent sights and not really be pedestrian friendly in any way.

I am glad they recommended not to build it.

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by MasterG

I get the light timing is tough and frustrating for some, but $130 million seems like a lot of money to fix this issue, which doesn't little to improve transit travel times (apart from the benefits of avoiding the occasional accident by grade separation). Any interchange could limit the redevelopment of adjacent sights and not really be pedestrian friendly in any way.

I am glad they recommended not to build it.

Yeah, $130mil is steep. Just close 25th Ave and you have grade separation!

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

Yeah, $130mil is steep. Just close 25th Ave and you have grade separation!

Interesting thought, actually. Could you leave the west side as is, and close the east side and do something cheaper at the top of Spiller road? I'm sure the dead people wouldn't mind having their bones shuffled about, for progress, and cost savings(stupid cemeteries)!