Sports in Canadian culture

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Tim Leiweke is on the outs at MLSE

[Ramako]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

Tim Leiweke is on the outs at MLSE

From twitter:

cathalkelly ✔ @cathalkelly
Just talked to Tim Leiweke re: rumours he's leaving MLSE: "It's not true. 100 per cent not true. I'm fully committed to the season at hand."

[osmo]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

Tim Leiweke is on the outs at MLSE

He came to Toronto during one if its longest winters, and oddly a very underwhelming and cold summer. I can't sit and think that the weather basically killed his mojo with comical board run by Bell and Rogers making things that much worse. It's telling he won't stick around for at least the All-Star game and Leafs 100 so he really must hated this place and his work environment. I'm not surprised as Toronto can be a goddless tarmac at times and having crappy weather means enjoying some of the great things in the region will be hampered.

Bob McCowan called this months ago. He said he heard from his own sources Tim wasn't fully happy here and wanted to bail early. I hope Tim stays because MLSE needs his aggressiveness and bravado, MLSE before Tim was a snail, and turned into a rabbit when Tim arrived.

[elly63]

And the conundrum continues...and of course it was all people from BC watching.

Here are the most-watched sports events on English-language television for the past weekend, according to BBM Canada overnight ratings:

1. CFL, Lions at Argonauts, Sunday, TSN: 820,000
2. CFL, Alouettes at Roughriders, Saturday, TSN: 737,000
3. MLB, Blue Jays at White Sox, Sunday, Sportsnet: 633,000
4. MLB, Blue Jays at White Sox, Friday, Sportsnet: 583,000
5. MLB, Blue Jays at White Sox, Saturday, Sportsnet: 580,000
6. CFL, Eskimos at RedBlacks, Friday, TSN: 547,000
7. CFL, Stampeders at Ticats, Saturday, TSN: 490,000
8. Soccer, Women's u-20 World Cup final, Canada vs. Germany, Saturday, CBC: 461,000
9. Auto racing, NASCAR Pure Michigan 400, Sunday, TSN: 276,000 (Fox audience not measured)
10. Soccer, Women's u-20 World Cup, Korea vs. U.S., Saturday, CBC: 247,000

[osmo]

Originally Posted by elly63

And the conundrum continues...and of course it was all people from BC watching.

Here are the most-watched sports events on English-language television for the past weekend, according to BBM Canada overnight ratings:

1. CFL, Lions at Argonauts, Sunday, TSN: 820,000
2. CFL, Alouettes at Roughriders, Saturday, TSN: 737,000
3. MLB, Blue Jays at White Sox, Sunday, Sportsnet: 633,000
4. MLB, Blue Jays at White Sox, Friday, Sportsnet: 583,000
5. MLB, Blue Jays at White Sox, Saturday, Sportsnet: 580,000
6. CFL, Eskimos at RedBlacks, Friday, TSN: 547,000
7. CFL, Stampeders at Ticats, Saturday, TSN: 490,000
8. Soccer, Women's u-20 World Cup final, Canada vs. Germany, Saturday, CBC: 461,000
9. Auto racing, NASCAR Pure Michigan 400, Sunday, TSN: 276,000 (Fox audience not measured)
10. Soccer, Women's u-20 World Cup, Korea vs. U.S., Saturday, CBC: 247,000

What is more surprising is the healthy Women's U-20 WC numbers.

But again these numbers are meaningless if we can dig into the to see their distribution. You may have most of those numbers representative of BC and the lower mainland. You would hop and expect that two of the largest population centers in the country would drive these type of numbers. We have no idea if 200,000, 20,000 people in Toronto watched the game.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by osmo

You may have most of those numbers representative of BC and the lower mainland.

Or you may have most of those numbers coming from Toronto and the GTA.

Originally Posted by osmo

If we can't see the number distribution, we have no idea if 200,000 or 20,000 people in Toronto watched the game.

And for that exact same reason, we have no idea if 600,000 or 700,000 people in Toronto watched the game.

We do know, however, that Toronto Argonauts games consistently generate some of the highest ratings in the CFL and that one of the top regular season games last season was between the Toronto Argonauts and the Hamilton Tiger-Cats (two GTA teams) with 956,000 viewers.

The Hamilton Tiger-Cats game this weekend against the Calgary Stampeders, a Western team, generated 490,000 viewers. But even if we defy conventional wisdom and attribute as much as half of the viewers to Hamilton, that's only 245,000 viewers. Subtract that number from the 956,000 viewers that watched the Toronto/Hamilton game last season, we are left with 711,000 unaccounted viewers. I suppose you will tell us all those viewers came from Saskatchewan or BC or anywhere other than the GTA, since the rest of Canada is famous for its passionate interest in purely GTA CFL match-ups?

The above calculation is hardly precise. But the general point is sound: how credible is it to keep explaining away Toronto's consistently high television ratings by always attributing the vast majority of their viewers to everyone except Torontonians themselves?

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

how credible is it to keep explaining away Toronto's consistently great television ratings by always attributing the vast majority of their viewers to everyone except Torontonians themselves?

Yup, it's total bullshit. Argos had high numbers against Sask so the naysayers said it was all Sask people watching and the next two games were relatively high as well (again nobody in Toronto watched apparently). These guys will do or say anything to try and kill the Argos for their American wet dream.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by osmo

What is more surprising is the healthy Women's U-20 WC numbers.

Doesn't surprise me, in fact I thought it was kinda low. The 2002 U19 drew one of the highest numbers ever for Sportsnet (around 950k IIRC)

To me the biggest disappoint was the women's rugby final on TSN2. They said it drew a good number for that channel but had they had it on the main network with some promotion it could have drawn big. These one off events can really build into big ratings in a good tournament run.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by elly63

And the conundrum continues...and of course it was all people from BC watching.

Here are the most-watched sports events on English-language television for the past weekend, according to BBM Canada overnight ratings:

1. CFL, Lions at Argonauts, Sunday, TSN: 820,000
2. CFL, Alouettes at Roughriders, Saturday, TSN: 737,000
3. MLB, Blue Jays at White Sox, Sunday, Sportsnet: 633,000
4. MLB, Blue Jays at White Sox, Friday, Sportsnet: 583,000
5. MLB, Blue Jays at White Sox, Saturday, Sportsnet: 580,000
6. CFL, Eskimos at RedBlacks, Friday, TSN: 547,000
7. CFL, Stampeders at Ticats, Saturday, TSN: 490,000
8. Soccer, Women's u-20 World Cup final, Canada vs. Germany, Saturday, CBC: 461,000
9. Auto racing, NASCAR Pure Michigan 400, Sunday, TSN: 276,000 (Fox audience not measured)
10. Soccer, Women's u-20 World Cup, Korea vs. U.S., Saturday, CBC: 247,000

Were there not any MLS games on TV that week?

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Were there not any MLS games on TV that week?

Of course there were. Both Toronto FC and the Vancouver Whitecaps FC played that weekend. Here is the complete Weekly Top 20 List:

1. CFL, Lions at Argonauts, Sunday, TSN: 820,000

2. CFL, Alouettes at Roughriders, Saturday, TSN: 737,000

3. MLB, Blue Jays at White Sox, Sunday, Sportsnet: 633,000

4. MLB, Blue Jays at White Sox, Friday, Sportsnet: 583,000

5. MLB, Blue Jays at White Sox, Saturday, Sportsnet: 580,000

6. CFL, Eskimos at RedBlacks, Friday, TSN: 547,000

7. CFL, Stampeders at Ticats, Saturday, TSN: 490,000

8. Soccer, Women's u-20 World Cup final, Canada vs. Germany, Saturday, CBC: 461,000

9. Auto racing, NASCAR Pure Michigan 400, Sunday, TSN: 276,000 (Fox audience not measured)

10. Soccer, Women's u-20 World Cup, Korea vs. U.S., Saturday, CBC: 247,000

11. PGA, Wyndham Championship final round, Sunday, Global: 216,000

12. Soccer, Manchester City at Newcastle, Saturday, TSN: 190,000

13. Rugby, Women's World Cup final, Canada vs. England, Sunday, TSN2: 172,000

14. PGA, Wyndham Championship third round, Saturday, Global: 168,000

15. Soccer, Whitecaps at Chivas, Saturday, TSN: 155,000

16. Soccer, Crystal Palace at Arsenal, Saturday, Sportsnet: 139,000

17. UFC, Bader vs. St. Preux, Saturday, Sportsnet360: 138,000

18. Soccer, Tottenham at West Ham, Saturday, Sportsnet: 133,000

19. Tennis, ATP Western and Southern Open semifinal, Saturday, Sportsnet: 101,000

20. Soccer, Swansea at Manchester United, Saturday, Sportsnet: 90,000

*Toronto FC doesn't usually attract enough viewers to register in the Weekly Top 20 of Canadian sports broadcasts. Three weeks ago, for example, TFC managed to attract only 22,000 viewers nationwide. And most of those were from Saskatchewan I've been told.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

And most of those were from Saskatchewan I believe.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Of course there were. Both Toronto FC and the Vancouver Whitecaps FC played that weekend. Here is the complete Weekly Top 20 List:



*Toronto FC doesn't usually attract enough viewers to register in the Weekly Top 20 of Canadian sports broadcasts. Three weeks ago, for example, TFC managed to attract only 22,000 viewers nationwide. And most of those were from Saskatchewan I've been told.

Any idea as to why the Whitecaps get better ratings than TFC?

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Of course there were. Both Toronto FC and the Vancouver Whitecaps FC played that weekend. Here is the full list:



*Toronto FC doesn't ever get enough viewers to register in the Weekly Top 20. For context, three weeks ago TFC attracted 22,000 viewers nationwide. And most of those were from Saskatchewan I believe.

A good chunk of TFC viewers stream games on MLS Live. I have the full Rogers sports package but only tune into games via the MLS Live app (only $64 flat for a full season), it's a trick I learned from local fans since it's near impossible to watch all the TFC games without subscribing to 3 different sports channels that don't all come with the standard cable plan. You get HD streaming from anywhere on an Android device with repeats and highlights of all the games this year, including live stats detailed news, etc. from all MLS teams. It's fun watching home games with the commentary from the opposing team's pundits especially when they get thrashed...let's not talk about the last 2 games however...

One of the reasons that MLS fans watch games through the app/online rather than the networks is due to the random way they're broadcast with unusual hours/days and on different channels. One week it will be on TSN during a weekday early afternoon, then the weekend on TSN2 at around noon, then 4 days later then next game is on a weekday late night on a third channel. You have to be pretty hardcore at following schedules, with subscriptions to 3 different cable channels just to follow your home team!

The bottom line is that with a weak TV contract, minimal promotion on the networks and a very new product, TFC are able to sell out stadiums week after week and sell millions of dollars in merchandise. They would be quite profitable too but for their recent addition of $100 million in player contracts. Once they finish expanding their stadium capacity in a year (the stadium roof will take another year to complete after that), they'll be profitable again. No CFL team comes close to them in terms of fan support to finance a $30 million and growing annual payroll. Once the new TV money kicks in and the salary cap increases (expected to double this year) with an additional designated player slot, you can fully expect the new stadium to sell out requiring a further expansion. This is not the mark of a team or league without massive support.

I went for a walk around town yesterday evening and saw 3 different people with TFC gear and about a half dozen with Blue Jays gear, all within a couple hours. I have yet to see someone wear Argos gear in this city after 20+ years of living here. Please continue to minimize the opinions of Torontonians who insist that there's hardly anyone here who follows or watches the Argos. The Jays, Leafs and TFC are common water cooler talk, the Argos are nowhere to be seen but in these interpretations of media stats from CFL fanboys on this message board...

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Any idea as to why the Whitecaps get better ratings than TFC?

I think soccer just has deeper roots in Vancouver. The Whitecaps won the Soccer Bowl in 1979 during the heyday of NASL. And Vancouver is a vital part of the hottest, fiercest and longest rivalry in North American professional soccer, the Cascadia Cup, a decades-old, 3-way derby with the soccer-mad cities of Seattle and Portland.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

The bottom line is that with a weak TV contract, minimal promotion on the networks and a very new product, TFC are able to sell out stadiums week after week and sell millions of dollars in merchandise. They would be quite profitable too but for their recent addition of $100 million in player contracts. Once they finish expanding their stadium capacity in a year (the stadium roof will take another year to complete after that), they'll be profitable again. No CFL team comes close to them in terms of fan support to finance a $30 million and growing annual payroll. Once the new TV money kicks in and the salary cap increases (expected to double this year) with an additional designated player slot, you can fully expect the new stadium to sell out requiring a further expansion. This is not the mark of a team or league without massive support.

It's not hard to see the link between the longer TFC season and increased payroll. More games = more money. If the CFL played 25-odd home games per team (which you obviously cannot do in pro football because of the physical toll that the game takes), then it would have roughly the same payroll as MLS, minus a few million dollars. (Assuming 20,000 fans at an average price of $50 a pop = $1,000,000 gate per game). It is not as though the MLS payroll is larger than the CFL's by orders of magnitude like the NBA's, for instance. MLS has what the CFL payroll would be if the CFL played a MLS-length season.

I went for a walk around town yesterday evening and saw 3 different people with TFC gear and a dozen with Blue Jays gear, all within a couple hours. I have yet to see someone Argos gear in this city after 20+ years of living here. Please continue to minimize the opinions of Torontonians who insist that there's hardly anyone here who follows or watches the Argos, the Jays, Leafs and TFC are common water cooler talk, the Argos are nowhere to be seen but in these interpretations of media stats from CFL fanboys on this message board...

Then how do you explain away the numbers? When, for example, an Argos game gets 820,000 viewers but a TFC game gets 2.7% of that viewership... are you telling us that there are hundreds of thousands of people watching online? Or that there are half a million people in Saskatchewan watching Argo games? Neither of those really seem plausible.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

I went for a walk around town yesterday evening and saw 3 different people with TFC gear and about a half dozen with Blue Jays gear, all within a couple hours. I have yet to see someone wear Argos gear in this city after 20+ years of living here. Please continue to minimize the opinions of Torontonians who insist that there's hardly anyone here who follows or watches the Argos. The Jays, Leafs and TFC are common water cooler talk, the Argos are nowhere to be seen but in these interpretations of media stats from CFL fanboys on this message board...

Personal anecdotal observations about jersey sightings and water cooler talk VERSUS objective, scientifically-collected empirical data from BBM Canada regarding what people are actually watching.

Hmmmm.....I wonder what carries more evidentiary weight? LOL!

By the way, every CFL game is streamed live online and is available on demand too. Yeah, soccer fans aren't the only ones who have computers and smartphones.

Let's repeat the only objective data provided so far:

TFC: 22,000 viewers
Argos: 820,000 viewers

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's not hard to see the link between the longer TFC season and increased payroll. More games = more money. If the CFL played 25-odd home games per team (which you obviously cannot do in pro football because of the physical toll that the game takes), then it would have roughly the same payroll as MLS, minus a few million dollars. (Assuming 20,000 fans at an average price of $50 a pop = $1,000,000 gate per game). It is not as though the MLS payroll is larger than the CFL's by orders of magnitude like the NBA's, for instance. MLS has what the CFL payroll would be if the CFL played a MLS-length season.



Then how do you explain away the numbers? When, for example, an Argos game gets 820,000 viewers but a TFC game gets 2.7% of that viewership... are you telling us that there are hundreds of thousands of people watching online? Or that there are half a million people in Saskatchewan watching Argo games? Neither of those really seem plausible.

Half a million people watching from the prairies seems quite reasonable since many are bound to follow more than one team. 60% of CFL merchandise sales is of Riders gear yet Riders-nation is less than 3% of our countries population! How are the prairies not the dominant fanbase of this league?

[esquire]

If we want to get into anecdotal observations, a good as place for those as any is the comment section of the Toronto Sun. It's clear that any Leafs story will generate tons and tons of commentary. Everyone and their dog weighs in on the latest Leafs news. Any Jays and Raptors story will also have a number of comments. The Argos, TFC and Rock might have at most a few, if any, comments per story.

The point is that anyone who thinks that TFC is surging in popularity with hordes of devoted followers probably needs a reality check.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Half a million people watching from the prairies seems quite reasonable since many are bound to follow more than one team. 60% of CFL merchandise sales is of Riders gear yet Riders-nation is less than 3% of our countries population! How are the prairies not the dominant fanbase of this league?

The Argo game finished number one in the ratings last week. Are you telling us that more people on the prairies are watching Argo games than their own teams?

I will say it's a bit weird how you're going out of your way to build a case for what a thoroughly crappy job Toronto is doing in supporting its football team. This is a point of pride, I take it?

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Personal anecdotal observations about jersey sightings and water cooler talk VERSUS objective, scientifically-collected empirical data from BBM Canada regarding what people are actually watching.

Hmmmm.....I wonder what carries more evidentiary weight? LOL!

By the way, every CFL game is streamed live online and is available on demand too. Yeah, soccer fans aren't the only ones who have computers and smartphones.

Let's repeat the only objective data provided so far:

TFC: 22,000 viewers
Argos: 820,000 viewers

Those facts you are speaking about still don't prove that those 820,000 viewers come from Toronto, I still maintain that they're mostly from the prairies. If a market with 2.8% of our countries population is responsible for 60% of the merchandise sales, then the broader prairies being responsible for the 820,000 viewers is not a stretch by any means. TFC has more people in seats than the Argos, over many more games, that's tangible fact. Estimating the proportion of viewership coming from a market based on your gut feeling is opinion.