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  #101  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2020, 5:20 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
My point in bringing up Bergen County was to demonstrate that shopping on Sunday in Toronto was probably still illegal in the 90s for reasons other than it being a conservative stronghold.

Likewise in much of secular, liberal Western Europe, Sunday shopping is still illegal. It's meant to give everyone a day off - and not so they can go to church.
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  #102  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2020, 5:44 PM
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I do expect this will die out eventually, but I too am surprised at how long it has persisted. 20-25 years ago this is not what I would have expected for 2020. Demolinguistics have a mind of their own I guess.
Yeah, wouldn't have thought. And I keep getting surprised. Just last year I found that the Stewartstown town clerk (the neighboring town) was fluent in French, and later in the year I also found one of the bankers at Citizens' Bank in Colebrook was fluent in French. That's in addition to several realtors I know in the area. They're always super happy to have an occasion to bring their French out of the mothballs, and I always accept to switch.

Every single one of those people is at least 40-50 years old though. I have never met any Yank of my generation or younger - even the ones with traditional Québécois surnames - who can speak any French, even the ones who literally live / grew up on the border.

So it's pretty much guaranteed that by the time you and I are very old, this feature of northernmost New England will be a thing of the past.
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  #103  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2020, 6:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
In spite of what's been said by others, I don't think it's entirely true that the whole story is that of freewheeling Toronto being held back by the teetotalling rest of Ontario. Only very small parts of Ontario would have very prohibitionist views on alcohol and Toronto has by far the largest population and the most seats in the legislature, and even moreso when you count the GTA and Golden Horseshoe. Attitudes towards alcohol aren't significantly different in Ottawa (certainly not, being right next to Quebec), London or Windsor, or even Kingston, than they are in Toronto.

Plus the City of Toronto has some authority itself when it comes to regulating alcohol use, and hasn't really loosened things up that much itself.

Generally speaking, Toronto can best be described as a "sensible" city. For a lot of people, that's actually a good thing.
Last call in San Francisco is also at 2:00am, when are those uptight San Franciscans gonna loosen up? Same with LA and the rest of California.
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  #104  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2020, 7:07 PM
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Originally Posted by softee View Post
Last call in San Francisco is also at 2:00am, when are those uptight San Franciscans gonna loosen up? Same with LA and the rest of California.
This doesn't disprove anything I said, and is totally unrelated.
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  #105  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2020, 8:47 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Yeah, wouldn't have thought. And I keep getting surprised. Just last year I found that the Stewartstown town clerk (the neighboring town) was fluent in French, and later in the year I also found one of the bankers at Citizens' Bank in Colebrook was fluent in French. That's in addition to several realtors I know in the area. They're always super happy to have an occasion to bring their French out of the mothballs, and I always accept to switch.

Every single one of those people is at least 40-50 years old though. I have never met any Yank of my generation or younger - even the ones with traditional Québécois surnames - who can speak any French, even the ones who literally live / grew up on the border.

So it's pretty much guaranteed that by the time you and I are very old, this feature of northernmost New England will be a thing of the past.
I feel the same way as you - that the bottom will fall out eventually and there will be little to no French left there. And I do think it will at some point.

And yet, Franco-Americans who still speak French still pop up fairly regularly.

If it's the next generation that will see it disappear, why this one and not the previous one? Or the one before that?

Because emigration/immigration of francophones from Canada into the NE US mostly dried up around 1930. So most Franco-Americans are going to be descendants of people who've been in the U.S. for several generations.

My guess is that maybe the first generation born of the final massive groups of immigrants who came of age in the 1940s and 1950s would have had lots of endogamy (French Canadians marrying French Canadians) but starting in the 1960s and 1970s you must have had a massive amount of people marrying outside their own group at that point.

And yet there they are...
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  #106  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2020, 8:58 PM
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No amount of blue laws will alleviate the absolute hell that is the traffic in NJ. Might as well buy a pair of Levi's on Sunday...
Why when you can buy them online and have them delivered on Sunday or any other day? I find myself unwilling to drive even a mile to shop in an actual store any more. It's so easy to let my mouse do the driving.
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  #107  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2020, 9:05 PM
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Originally Posted by softee View Post
Last call in San Francisco is also at 2:00am, when are those uptight San Franciscans gonna loosen up? Same with LA and the rest of California.
The least uptight of our citizens are most determined to keep the law as it is. They want a deadline for "hooking up" for the rest of the night. If there is no closing time, the pressure is never on your intended paramour to finally say, "Yes, let's go".
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  #108  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2020, 9:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
The least uptight of our citizens are most determined to keep the law as it is. They want a deadline for "hooking up" for the rest of the night. If there is no closing time, the pressure is never on your intended paramour to finally say, "Yes, let's go".
Now there is an interesting "angle". In more ways than one!
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  #109  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2020, 9:29 PM
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Between Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver Toronto is the most "conservative" of the three - but that's not saying much.
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  #110  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2020, 9:45 PM
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I think what a lot of Americans in this thread having been getting at is that Toronto is not especially large or unique in the North American context, so while we as Americans are vaguely aware that Toronto is more important these days, Montreal is still something special. And I think that's true. Here in NY, Montreal still seems to be an order of magnitude more exotic and desirable as a weekend destination than Toronto.

As a personal aside, when I visited Toronto from NYC a few years ago, the Canadian immigration officer at Pearson gave me a hard time because he didn't really buy that I was going there for tourism lol.
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  #111  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2020, 10:19 PM
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Not sure why this diverted from most prominent Canadian city into what is a more exotic weekend destination for an American.

If this were the case, then perhaps Miami, New Orleans or maybe even Las Vegas would be the most prominent American city to a Canadian.
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  #112  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2020, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by samne View Post
Not sure why this diverted from most prominent Canadian city into what is a more exotic weekend destination for an American.

If this were the case, then perhaps Miami, New Orleans or maybe even Las Vegas would be the most prominent American city to a Canadian.
I guess what I mean is that Toronto's thing in Canada is "bigness". But it actually isn't very big at all in an American, European, or Asian context.

So while it has surpassed Montreal for (ROC) Canadians, I'm not sure it has as much in other parts of the world, including your neighbors in the USA.
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  #113  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2020, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by park123 View Post
I guess what I mean is that Toronto's thing in Canada is "bigness". But it actually isn't very big at all in an American, European, or Asian context.

So while it has surpassed Montreal for (ROC) Canadians, I'm not sure it has as much in other parts of the world, including your neighbors in the USA.
I'd say that with 3,000,000 in the 243 sq mi city proper, and at least 8,000,000 by U.S. MSA requirements, and with a skyline almost as big as Chicago's, Toronto is most certainly a very big city by American or European standards.
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  #114  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2020, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by softee View Post
I'd say that with 3,000,000 in the 243 sq mi city proper, and at least 8,000,000 by U.S. MSA requirements, and with a skyline almost as big as Chicago's, Toronto is most certainly a very big city by American or European standards.
For people outside Canada, Toronto is Canada these days. I've often been asked while gaming how far outside of Toronto I am if they can see I'm in Canada. Only exception is Boston and area, where Montreal is still the reference point.

"I'm from St. John's, Newfoundland."
"OH!!! I LOVE MONTREAL!!!"
Etc.

Beyond that, excluding francophones (as we always do), for visitors to Canada, Montreal is a surprise. Like Vienna. You walk around thinking, how the fuck did this tiny place make a city grand enough to be the primary city on its entire continent?
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  #115  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2020, 11:13 PM
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^^ Although I agree with most of what you say it depends on what generation of people you're talking to and what part of the world they're from. The majority of Australians I run into are bowled over when I tell them that Vancouver isn't Canada's biggest city. They're shocked further when I tell them it's not even 2nd largest. To my parent's generation, Montreal was the face of Canada. My Dad grew up half way around the world but even there it was Montreal front and centre. Pierre Trudeau was widely admired and it coloured his entire view of Canada. To him Trudeau was great, Trudeau's Montreal was great, so Canada was great too. Toronto was viewed as a big but provincial backwater.

In some respects, we ended up in Canada due to my fathers's feelings about Trudeau, the city that produced him (Montreal), and my mother's life long love of Canada. It began when she first read Anne of Green Gables growing up in Finland.

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Originally Posted by park123 View Post
I think what a lot of Americans in this thread having been getting at is that Toronto is not especially large or unique in the North American context, so while we as Americans are vaguely aware that Toronto is more important these days, Montreal is still something special. And I think that's true. Here in NY, Montreal still seems to be an order of magnitude more exotic and desirable as a weekend destination than Toronto.

As a personal aside, when I visited Toronto from NYC a few years ago, the Canadian immigration officer at Pearson gave me a hard time because he didn't really buy that I was going there for tourism lol.
Maybe you look sketchy.

Joking aside, I somewhat agree with you. Toronto may have zoomed by Montreal but it's still figuring out what it's going to be. When you have half the population born in another country and another big chunk either from other parts of Canada or born to parents from another country it's quite understandable. Vastly smaller metros in Canada have a far more developed character than Toronto. When one says Quebec City, Ottawa, Halifax, St. John's, Winnipeg, Calgary, Kelowna, and even transient Vancouver some fairly distinct characteristics come to mind. Things in Toronto are still in a rapid state of flux. Turn around for a minute and things have changed. It can be unsettling at times. Toronto will surely develop its own distinct persona but I suspect it will take a few more generations for it to form.

That said, Toronto doesn't feel like any other city I've been to. It doesn't feel like Montreal. It doesn't feel like New York. It doesn't feel like Chicago. Toronto has its own thing going on, I'm just not sure what it is. I wonder if NYC felt like this 1880-1930.
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Last edited by isaidso; Feb 19, 2020 at 12:09 AM.
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  #116  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2020, 11:39 PM
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I guess what I mean is that Toronto's thing in Canada is "bigness". But it actually isn't very big at all in an American, European, or Asian context.
Your post has been responded to by others. They've given you the numbers but prior to reading that how big/small did you think Toronto was? I'm quite curious as practically everyone I've talked to outside Canada seems to peg Toronto far smaller than it actually is.

I agree that globally Toronto isn't one of the big boys (Tokyo dwarfs it) but in an American/European context, Toronto is a big city.
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  #117  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2020, 11:55 PM
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I feel the same way as you - that the bottom will fall out eventually and there will be little to no French left there. And I do think it will at some point.

And yet, Franco-Americans who still speak French still pop up fairly regularly.

If it's the next generation that will see it disappear, why this one and not the previous one? Or the one before that?

Because emigration/immigration of francophones from Canada into the NE US mostly dried up around 1930. So most Franco-Americans are going to be descendants of people who've been in the U.S. for several generations.

My guess is that maybe the first generation born of the final massive groups of immigrants who came of age in the 1940s and 1950s would have had lots of endogamy (French Canadians marrying French Canadians) but starting in the 1960s and 1970s you must have had a massive amount of people marrying outside their own group at that point.

And yet there they are...
I wonder how ethnic pride (or the trend in both the US and Canada of being "proud of your roots" or "rediscovering your culture" vs. the old school promotion of assimilation) will affect this?

Are modern day American youth of French Canadian descent in the NE proud of their connection to French Canada or do they see themselves as "regular Americans" now?

Then again, it seems like no matter how strong ethnic pride seems to be, getting one's heritage language "back" in the sense of re-learning a language lost in one's family is rare (no matter how proud many Italian Americans are, it seems like re-learning Italian is rare) -- it seems like keeping the language (or even just passing it on to kids) is a challenge. Unlike "fun", symbolic things like once a year festivals or things like re-learning how to cook one's ethnic cuisine, language retention seems more like a chore for many diasporas.
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  #118  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2020, 11:56 PM
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Not sure why this diverted from most prominent Canadian city into what is a more exotic weekend destination for an American.

If this were the case, then perhaps Miami, New Orleans or maybe even Las Vegas would be the most prominent American city to a Canadian.
You are missing at least one.
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  #119  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2020, 12:02 AM
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Another way I would put it, is which is more prominent, New Jersey or Quebec? The populations are similar, and NJ has a larger economy, but is it really a question? Obviously Quebec is more prominent. There is more to things than straight population and GDP.

In regards to Toronto being large, yeah it is compared to Cleveland. Get back to me when there are 20 million plus people like in metro NY or LA. And in a European or Asian context, does anyone think Toronto is a "big city" on par with Paris, London, Moscow, Istanbul, or even Barcelona or Berlin for that matter? No one who has visited any of those places.
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  #120  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2020, 12:09 AM
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Another way I would put it, is which is more prominent, New Jersey or Quebec? The populations are similar, and NJ has a larger economy, but is it really a question? Obviously Quebec is more prominent. There is more to things than straight population and GDP.

In regards to Toronto being large, yeah it is compared to Cleveland. Get back to me when there are 20 million plus people like in metro NY or LA. And in a European or Asian context, does anyone think Toronto is a "big city"?

Not that large in a NA context? I think that an average American from some saay Boston or Philadelphia visiting Toronto for their first time would find it large from their perspective as well.The 401 levels of traffic or pedestrian traffic downtown on a summer weekend alone can be intense. LA and NYC are certainly outliers in NA, but they don't define the "context". Toronto, (and Montreal for that matter) sits well at the big boy table alongside Houston, Atlanta, Philadelphia,etc..All of them considered large U.S cities to average Americans.

Last edited by Razor; Feb 19, 2020 at 2:12 AM.
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