Canadian LRT/RT projects U/C

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by casper

It is weird. The ICTS tech was developed in Ontario and has been sold around the world. The only place where it is being taken out of service is Ontario. That said, Toronto never understood how to take advantage of its automation. They put drivers in each train. The other installations of this Canadian developed technology have not done that.

The Ontario government developed ICTS and it was sold to only 2 or 3 cities. They sold it to Bombardier for a song just to get out of the transit business and forget it ever happened. Bombardier redeveloped it and had more success with their version. It still hasn't lived up to its potential.

There are a number of driverless systems in the world. There are as many if not more driver operated systems in the world. Most of the driverless system still have employees on the train that can step in and drive in a crunch. As I already said, there are amplified security concerns today that didn't really exist at the time of Skytrain's introduction.

I certainly see the advantages of driverless systems; Scheduling, allowing on board staff to provide other functions, improved frequencies. Hardly cause to diminish systems that choose to go or continue using drivers. Technically, we have reached that point where we don't need to have onboard pilots either.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

The Ontario government developed ICTS and it was sold to only 2 or 3 cities. They sold it to Bombardier for a song just to get out of the transit business and forget it ever happened. Bombardier redeveloped it and had more success with their version. It still hasn't lived up to its potential.

There are a number of driverless systems in the world. There are as many if not more driver operated systems in the world. Most of the driverless system still have employees on the train that can step in and drive in a crunch. As I already said, there are amplified security concerns today that didn't really exist at the time of Skytrain's introduction.

I certainly see the advantages of driverless systems; Scheduling, allowing on board staff to provide other functions, improved frequencies. Hardly cause to diminish systems that choose to go or continue using drivers. Technically, we have reached that point where we don't need to have onboard pilots either.

ICTS =/= driverless. They use LIMs.

[WhipperSnapper]

I'm not sure what is meant by ICTS =/= driverless

ICTS is an acronym for Ontario's intermediate capacity transit system and refers to smaller metro styled rolling stock. (Skytrain) Everyone that has posted in thsi thread knows it's designed to be driverless. Not all driverless systems are ICTS or, as its called now, Innovia

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

The Ontario government developed ICTS and it was sold to only 2 or 3 cities. They sold it to Bombardier for a song just to get out of the transit business and forget it ever happened. Bombardier redeveloped it and had more success with their version. It still hasn't lived up to its potential.

There are a number of driverless systems in the world. There are as many if not more driver operated systems in the world. Most of the driverless system still have employees on the train that can step in and drive in a crunch. As I already said, there are amplified security concerns today that didn't really exist at the time of Skytrain's introduction.

I certainly see the advantages of driverless systems; Scheduling, allowing on board staff to provide other functions, improved frequencies. Hardly cause to diminish systems that choose to go or continue using drivers. Technically, we have reached that point where we don't need to have onboard pilots either.

I'm not sure what security concerns you're referring to, but the automated systems that do exist seem to be doing just fine. I'm not aware of them facing any additional challenges within say, the last decade, compared to prior time frames. If anything, it seems like there were more concerns over automation back when the Skytrain was introduced in the 80s since the technology was so new, whereas now it's become run of the mill and systems have operated millions of driverless passenger kms with few issues.

It's true that there are probably more systems with drivers than ones without, but that seems to be largely down to the fact that driver operated systems had over a century's head start.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I'm not sure what is meant by ICTS =/= driverless

ICTS is an acronym for Ontario's intermediate capacity transit system and refers to smaller metro styled rolling stock. (Skytrain) Everyone that has posted in thsi thread knows it's designed to be driverless. Not all driverless systems are ICTS or, as its called now, Innovia

That is the point. Too many people seem to think all ICTSs have to be driverless, or that in order for it to be driverless, it must be ICTS.

[WhipperSnapper]

got it.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I'm not sure what security concerns you're referring to, but the automated systems that do exist seem to be doing just fine. I'm not aware of them facing any additional challenges within say, the last decade, compared to prior time frames. If anything, it seems like there were more concerns over automation back when the Skytrain was introduced in the 80s since the technology was so new, whereas now it's become run of the mill and systems have operated millions of driverless passenger kms with few issues.

It's true that there are probably more systems with drivers than ones without, but that seems to be largely down to the fact that driver operated systems had over a century's head start.

The 15 million ransomware attack on Translink's compass card. I remember reading/hearing the driverless function is a closed system so not applicable as the example but, that's what I meant by the times we live in now. The 1980s were more about conventional military attacks. Humans are always good back up plans.

I need to clarify. I'm not for metro systems that cannot run driverless. I just don't see the big deal having a driver on board driving or doing other things on a system that can run driverless. If I remember correctly (and it has been a long time) the TTC has the option to turn the subway systems driverless without huge modifications. I just don't get the whole thing with bringing up Skytrain everytime someone mentions drivers. It's not a big deal.

[niwell]

I’ve personally seen the door guard on a ttc subway save someone’s life who tripped and was about to get pulled under the train, so I’m not too opposed to having someone in the loop even if the train drives itself.

[nname]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

The 15 million ransomware attack on Translink's compass card. I remember reading/hearing the driverless function is a closed system so not applicable as the example but, that's what I meant by the times we live in now. The 1980s were more about conventional military attacks. Humans are always good back up plans.

I believe it was the office network and website. Compass card is not affected as it is a closed system, but the credit card function was shutdown as a safety precaution.

But you know, this kind of attack is most likely due to human error. The most easiest way for a ransomware to get into an office network is for an employee to download and open an email attachment from their office PC, or home PC while connected to the office VPN network...

[casper]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

The 15 million ransomware attack on Translink's compass card. I remember reading/hearing the driverless function is a closed system so not applicable as the example but, that's what I meant by the times we live in now. The 1980s were more about conventional military attacks. Humans are always good back up plans.

I need to clarify. I'm not for metro systems that cannot run driverless. I just don't see the big deal having a driver on board driving or doing other things on a system that can run driverless. If I remember correctly (and it has been a long time) the TTC has the option to turn the subway systems driverless without huge modifications. I just don't get the whole thing with bringing up Skytrain everytime someone mentions drivers. It's not a big deal.

Normal reason Skytrain keeps getting mentioned is it is a good example. Largest metro system in Canada by total number of tracks and driverless. Also with two lines being the Canadian designed technology and the third line being more conventional.

Many times when you are on a skytrain train there are no employees at all on the train.

Cybersecurity is always a concern however that same can be said of a system
Like the Toronto where the lights that provide direction to the drivers are computer controlled. In practice theses things are isolated apropriately from the real world.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I need to clarify. I'm not for metro systems that cannot run driverless. I just don't see the big deal having a driver on board driving or doing other things on a system that can run driverless. If I remember correctly (and it has been a long time) the TTC has the option to turn the subway systems driverless without huge modifications. I just don't get the whole thing with bringing up Skytrain everytime someone mentions drivers. It's not a big deal.

It's true, trains requiring drivers isn't that big a deal. But it's nice that automated trains can't go on strike.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by biguc

It's true, trains requiring drivers isn't that big a deal. But it's nice that automated trains can't go on strike.

The people in the operations area that run the system that allows the trains to operate can go on strike....

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by biguc

It's true, trains requiring drivers isn't that big a deal. But it's nice that automated trains can't go on strike.

That was a key talking point for the right-wing government that brought the system to BC.

[J.OT13]

OC Transpo update video of Stage 2 West, South and East.

• Video Link

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by biguc

But it's nice that automated trains can't go on strike.

And here I thought you were a socialist.

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The people in the operations area that run the system that allows the trains to operate can go on strike....

We are going to be in real trouble when the computer all start to join unions.

It is well know how unreasonable CUPE and the Teamsters can be. Image what it will be like negotiating with the Robot Union. They will want us to recognise special Robot holidays.

[J.OT13]

Delays confirmed for Stage 2. West extension 10 months behind because of complications along the Sir John A. Parkway tunnel, near the Ottawa River. South delayed 10 months because of SNC Lavalin's incompetence. East is on track for November 2024 substantial completion (not delayed).

[Nite]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Delays confirmed for Stage 2. West extension 10 months behind because of complications along the Sir John A. Parkway tunnel, near the Ottawa River. South delayed 10 months because of SNC Lavalin's incompetence. East is on track for November 2024 substantial completion (not delayed).

Are the trains back in service in Ottawa since the derailment, did they ever find a cause?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by casper

We are going to be in real trouble when the computer all start to join unions.

It is well know how unreasonable CUPE and the Teamsters can be. Image what it will be like negotiating with the Robot Union. They will want us to recognise special Robot holidays.

You do know there are people monitoring those computers? You do know they are unionized?

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You do know there are people monitoring those computers? You do know they are unionized?

Obviously there are dispatchers. The same dispatcher positions also exist for railways with drivers.