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  #21  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2010, 8:04 PM
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This looks amazing, I really hope it does come through with 2000 or so units, that would be amazing density. Hopefully we'll get to see more projects like this along Main St.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2010, 9:28 PM
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still preferring 2b for the same reasons as before. and imagine if they could get a grocery store in along 33rd, as a basic commercial component. i wonder too if the city might be able to extract some funding from holborn for a main streetcar - go with 15% social with $10 million for a main street line, and those 1000 parking spaces will work a lot better for everyone. not likely on the radar, but something that would please everyone concerned.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2010, 10:08 PM
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at least this devlopment is within reasonable walking distance to King Edward station on the canada line
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  #24  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2010, 2:15 AM
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Originally Posted by SpongeG View Post
at least this devlopment is within reasonable walking distance to King Edward station on the canada line
Hmm..I'm sure someone can produce a study showing what radius transit stops draw from. It seems kind of far to walk on a rainy February day, but at least the 33 bus connects the two.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2010, 2:16 AM
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this development is pretty much next to where the curling venue was for the olympics not too bad of a walk

it would be a selling point in my book
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  #26  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2010, 8:21 AM
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at least this devlopment is within reasonable walking distance to King Edward station on the canada line
It would be much better when QE Park/33rd Ave Stn opens. I'm sure this development here will bring about redeveloping the general area, which will justify the need for a new Canada Line station.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2010, 8:33 PM
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As mentioned before, the proposals were narrowed down to 4 at the last round of open houses. See them below:

Urban Grid:

http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/plannin..._urbangrid.pdf

Central Street:

http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/plannin...tralstreet.pdf

Lane Street:

http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/plannin...lanestreet.pdf

Squares & Plazas:

http://vancouver.ca/commsvcs/plannin...aresplazas.pdf
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  #28  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2010, 2:21 AM
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Any news on what's up with this project?
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  #29  
Old Posted Mar 11, 2011, 5:35 AM
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As far as I know plans are still progressing on this although very slowly with Phase 1 not expected until ~2014 and buildout shortly after 2020.

Wondering if anyone has any insight on Holborn's intentions with the project though, as I've now heard from 2 different sources that the project is being shopped but I have not heard anything official to support that. Anyone at liberty of saying?
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  #30  
Old Posted Mar 11, 2011, 10:05 AM
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sounds like a plausible scenario to me. seems better suited to a Concert or Concord to build out as they have more experience in such things.
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  #31  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2011, 6:14 PM
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A couple of posts over a Michael Geller's blog comment on the Little Mountain situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Geller

So what’s happening at Little Mountain? Is it another Olympic Village?

As I was driving down Main Street earlier this week, I passed the Little Mountain Property. It is now more than three years since the Province of BC declared Holborn Properties Ltd. to be the successful bidder for this 15.2 acre property fronting along Main Street between 37th and 33rd Avenue. I remember this well since I was a member of one of the unsuccessful teams to bid on the property.

While there are many differences between the Little Mountain property and the Olympic Village site, there are also many similarities. Each site was offered for sale by a level of government through a two stage Proposal Call process. In each case, the successful bidder offered much more than what all other bidders and most real estate analysts thought the property was worth. Both are high profile sites and each requires a significant mix of market and non-market housing.

Little Mountain was the first public housing project in British Columbia, developed by the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in 1954. I spent 10 years with CMHC, and my last project was a submission to management on the regeneration of older public housing projects. For this reason, I very much wanted to be involved with the redevelopment of the Little Mountain property. I considered it an important prototype for future projects in Vancouver and across the country. While I was disappointed that my team was not successful, I am now equally disappointed with the apparent lack of progress with the planning and redevelopment of the property. Moreover, I am worried that the public sector is about to again lose money it was expecting from a developer who offered to pay too much.

Today I Googled ‘Little Mountain’ and came across a very attractive little website. http://www.vancouverlittlemountain.com/home It includes “The Vision of Little Mountain Development: A vibrant neighbourhood with diversified housing, sustainability, social awareness, community engagement, affordability, livability, efficient land use, pedestrian and bike movement, demographic diversity, urban planning & architectural excellence.” It also includes Jim Green’s Report since Mr. Green is a consultant to Holborn on the project. He talks about Mole Hill and his views on other innovative housing initiatives in the city and the environment and sustainability.

The City and Province also have websites that include dozens of documents and reports. However, notwithstanding the very long lapse of time, there do not appear to be any substantial plans for the property. While I noticed that the very talented Jim Cheng is the architect, and I found a few schematic ‘site plans’, I could not find any drawings or models showing just how much housing might be built…and at what densities and building heights. I suspect both height and density will be of interest to the single family neighbours who surround the property and other architects and developers who are contemplating rezonings along Cambie Street, or elsewhere in the city. I'm also interested since my team was told, before we withdrew from the bidding process, that our density was not high enough.

So why do I care? I care because I fear that Little Mountain could become the next Olympic Village. In both cases, the developer offered to pay too much for the property. In both cases, there is a requirement for a substantial social housing component. In both cases the expectations of the developer probably differ from the aspirations of the surrounding communities and interest groups. And both involve the City and the Province and the politics that governments usually bring to real estate development.

While most of us are very absorbed with the Olympic Village, the proposed Casino, and the various rezonings along the North Shore of False Creek, I think it is probably time for what Frances Bula calls ‘urban wonks’ to start to pay attention to what’s happening on this strategic property. My prediction? If we’re not careful, just as happened at the Olympic Village, government will not get the huge amount of money and social housing that the developer promised. I hope I’m wrong, but somehow, I doubt it. Otherwise, I would not have gone out on a limb and published this post!

Over to you….urban wonks!
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  #32  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2011, 6:15 PM
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And Ned Jacobs' response. It's long, but worth the read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ned Jacobs

Michael,

To the best of my knowledge your information concerning the Little Mountain situation is correct, and your surmise—that a mess of Olympic Village proportions may be unfolding—seems plausible.

Before I comment, though, full disclosure on my involvement in the issue:

I have lived and worked in the Riley Park neighbourhood since 1980 and been involved with the Little Mountain (LM) issue since 2003 when I participated in a Community Vision (CV) workshop concerning the future of LM and served on the Riley Park/South Cambie CityPlan Community Liaison Group that oversaw the creation of the Community Vision approved by City Council in 2005. I am a founding member of Community Advocates for Little Mountain (CALM) http://www.my-calm.info/index.html, formed in spring of 2007 after Rich Coleman announced plans to redevelop LM and BC Housing began pressuring tenants to accept relocation to provide a blank slate for phased redevelopment; the RPSC Vision Implementation Committee, a voluntary City-mandated group that functions as a public “watchdog” over area planning http://www.rpscvisions.ca/webpages/c...fm?contentID=1 ; and the Little Mountain Advisory Group, which was convened following the establishment of the Little Mountain Planning Program on November 19, 2009 by City Council http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/...0091119min.pdf . I also serve as a spokesperson for the Neighbourhoods for a Sustainable Vancouver network of community groups, which includes CALM and the RPSC Committee. That said, I am not writing here on behalf of any of these groups or committees.

It was expected that the LM planning process would require about a year to complete a policy to guide rezoning. It began in December, 2009, with open houses and a series of meetings, workshops and walking tours involving the Advisory Group, CoV staff, Holborn Properties and their consultants, architect James Cheng and Jim Green & Associates. The last meeting was in September, 2010. After an unexpected break, participants received an email from staff on October 26th that stated “we are still not in a position to call an Advisory Group meeting as the proponent has not yet delivered the 3-D concepts needed for evaluation by the City and analysis by our independent economic consultant. As soon as we are in a position to coordinate a presentation of the concepts and their evaluation, we will arrange an Advisory Group meeting.” We waited and waited and waited.

Finally, in February, 2011 the RPSC Committee was advised that the 6-month interruption of the LM planning process was due, in fact, to an impasse between Holborn and the City. Staff concluded that the developer was not prepared to work within the directions and principles set out by Council, and only wished to present concepts to the Advisory Group that were financially “feasible,” that is, based on their undisclosed agreement with BC Housing. Staff did not think that the design concepts that Holborn were developing were suitable for presenting to the Advisory Group because, in their view, they were inappropriate in terms of residential density and building forms for a site that is not in easy walking distance of a rapid transit station or a significant employment area, and is adjacent to a low-rise “single family” area. The City also concluded that the financial implications of proceeding on the basis of the proponents apparent expectations were that Vancouver, in effect, would be helping to subsidize the social housing that was a provincial responsibility.

On November 19, 2009, at the meeting to establish a Little Mountain Planning Program, Council moved “THAT the Mayor further advise BC Housing and Holborn Properties that disclosure of the key elements of their agreement on Little Mountain is essential for the public consultation to be meaningful, and to produce a positive rezoning in a timely way.” Whether the public process is “meaningful” remains to be seen, but is seriously in doubt. The “key elements” (conditions of the sale) have not been forthcoming, and consequently, a rezoning—positive or otherwise—cannot be produced in a timely way. Jim Green & Associates, speaking for Holborn, have indicated that the developer cannot divulge the information sought by the Mayor and the RPSC Committee because of a confidentiality agreement with BC Housing. This much is known: the sale will not be final until the property is rezoned, which would require a subsequent planning process. It is now clear that whatever Holborn agreed to pay for the land was based on a hypothetical rezoning, and the RPSC Committee has been told on several occasions that if the conditions for redevelopment are not economically viable, Holborn will not proceed. Presumably, if that were to happen it would mean a new Request for Proposals (though the government of the day might decide to maintain ownership and redevelop according to a different strategy). CoV staff have indicated that if the process were to break down the City would complete the policy planning process. That, at least, would provide clarity for future development proposals.

In the meantime, the more than $400,000 that Holborn was required to provide for the policy planning have been exhausted. For the process to continue the developer will have to come up with more money. Holborn has continued to do outreach work during this period (e.g. discussions with some of the former tenants and with the board of the Little Mountain Neighbourhood House), but this research has not involved the Advisory Group, or the CoV in any formal sense, and is not regarded by staff as part of the public planning process.

The City’s economic consultant has provided an estimate of the current market value for the 15-acre site, which,the basis of the existing zoning would accommodate apartments up to 4 storeys, and could provide up to about 1000 dwelling units—more than four times the density of the demolished LM housing complex. This baseline figure has not yet been made public, but it will serve as the basis for calculating “land lift” and public benefits, including replacement of the inadequate LM Neighbourhood House, and possibly some additional non-market housing that could be negotiated with the developer through a rezoning.

At a 2007 meeting with BC Housing officials, I asked CEO Shane Ramsay how proponents would know how much to offer if they didn’t know what amount or forms of development would be approved. He explained that developers would make their offers conditional on the density that was approved by the City. But now it appears that the proponents were required to place bets based on what they thought they could get approved. Holborn’s parent company is a Malaysian merchant bank, reportedly with deep pockets, and they took the plunge that more prudent and experienced development companies would not take. Possibly they thought—or were led to believe—that with the government standing behind them the sky was the limit.

In a speech to the Urban Development Institute on May 21, 2009, Holborn’s marketer, Bob Rennie, predicted more than 2500 condos at LM. Add the 224 replacement social housing units (it will actually be 234 units due to a reduction of ca 5% in BC Housing floor space requirements), and we’re looking at roughly 2750 units.

But wait—there’s more. A Council resolution states: “THAT staff communicate Council’s priority for dealing with homelessness and creating more social housing to BC Housing and the developer of Little Mountain (Holborn Properties) and seek opportunities to ensure timely planning, while respecting community concerns, through various stages from policy planning to zoning, to development permits with the intent of expediting and achieving replacement social housing (224 units) or 20% social housing of the total built units, whichever is greater, as soon as possible.” 20% of 2500 equals 500, so we’re actually looking at a combined total of more than 3000 units. And Council also moved: “THAT staff explore opportunities to increase the family housing component of the market units of the development of Little Mountain beyond the typical Major Project Requirement of 25% total units.” That means a higher proportion of 2 and 3-bedroom units, which increases FSR for the housing and also the space needed for family amenities, such as day care centres, playgrounds, food stores, etc. Calculating FSR and correlations between height and land coverage is not something I am qualified to do, but surely this would translate to an average building height well in excess of 15 storeys.

How would this square with Council’s requirement for “respecting community concerns?” Input from several CoV open houses, and a public forum hosted by the RPSC Committee, have thus far shown strong support for the existing zoning, moderate support for buildings up to 6 storeys, and virtually no support for higher forms. It remains to be seen if there will be a significant shift in these positions as people examine and consider the possibilities, but I would be very surprised if towers are supported, and there are strong arguments for maintaining human scale and ground-oriented development in a neighbourhood that is a magnet for families with children. Concerns have also been raised in regard to the visual impacts from towers on Queen Elizabeth Park, which contains Canada’s first civic arboretum.

There is, however, strong support for additional non-market housing. CALM and the Citywide Housing Coalition organized the “Stand for Housing—Homes for All” rallies in 2008 and 09, and along with the RPSC Committee applied the pressure that led to the Council resolutions that are incompatible with Holborn’s expectations. Riley Park has long been a source of affordable family housing which in recent years has been eroded by the inflated Vancouver housing market. A RPSC CV Approved Direction states” The City should urge federal/provincial governments to reinstate programs that fund non-market housing and to develop new initiatives that would make housing more affordable for low income households.” It does not urge governments to sell off permanent and irreplaceable appreciating assets (public land) to fund temporary, depreciating assets (construction of supportive housing in Vancouver and other municipalities). This unsustainable housing strategy is analogous to selling the house to buy furniture! Moreover, social housing and mixed income co-ops would be a better fit than social housing and condos (which in Vancouver are now high-end by definition).

Since I began writing this reply I received word that an Advisory Group meeting has been scheduled for March 30 “to reconvene the group, provide updates, share information and begin the density and height explorations for the Little Mountain site.” That will be welcome news to many, and especially the dislocated tenants, who were told by BC Housing officials in 2007 that they could be back at Little Mountain in their new homes by 2010 (at this point the best-case scenario is that the first replacement units could be occupied in 2014).

But it leaves some huge questions unanswered. What exactly has occurred to break the impasse between Holborn’s and the City’s incompatible expectations? Has the City agreed to drop their conditions? Has Holborn managed to renegotiate the problematic “key elements of their agreement” with BC Housing? Are they looking to cut future losses by transferring their interest to another company? Or have all three parties agreed to stick their heads in the sand and carry on as if there never was an impasse, hoping that the obstacles will somehow be resolved in the future—perhaps following the upcoming municipal and provincial elections?

That would not be acceptable. We need to have a frank and open discussion about the reasons for the impasse, and what—if anything—has been done to resolve it. BC Housing and Holborn must respond positively to Council’s request that the “key elements of their agreement” be disclosed, in order to allow for a meaningful planning process, even though it can no longer be timely. The alternative is a process that continues to be dogged by distrust and fraught with apprehension over where it is leading and when the long-delayed rebuilding of a community at Little Mountain might realistically begin.

Ned Jacobs
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  #33  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2011, 9:28 PM
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I have to say comment about not being able to calculate a FSR is a bit of a cop out. Just assume a unit size, a fudge factor for common area and 3000 units. There you go. You have ~218 sq. ft. of land per housing unit.

I take a 900 sqft avg. unit size. Add 10% common space, there you go 4.54 FSR. Make an assumption about how much of the site buildings can cover and you have an average building height. I'll assume 45%. 10 floor average building height.

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  #34  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2011, 7:00 PM
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Interesting article on Little Mountain in today's Sun. Sounds like another case of a developer overpaying for a site.
Bit of a swipe at the Olympic Village thrown in too:

Toderian and Tiah say they're aiming for about 40 per cent of the land to be open space. That means some taller buildings are necessary -perhaps up to 12 storeys or more. Neither wants another Olympic Village, with its squat, dense buildings and canyon-like streets and they also promise Little Mountain won't become a forest of tall highrises

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Vancouver+Little+Mountain+redevelopment+stalled/4917231/story.html[/url]
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  #35  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2011, 8:11 PM
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That swipe at OV jumped out to me too.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2011, 4:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnext View Post

Toderian and Tiah say they're aiming for about 40 per cent of the land to be open space. That means some taller buildings are necessary -perhaps up to 12 storeys or more. Neither wants another Olympic Village, with its squat, dense buildings and canyon-like streets and they also promise Little Mountain won't become a forest of tall highrises
Agree with the comments about the buildings. Regarding the "canyon-like" streets, the problem is that no one in this country knows how to design such streets. First all all, they should have been car-free and lined with little shops and cafes to create interest at street level. That would have been interesting. Secondly, they should have used high-quality materials like machine cut granite instead of crappy looking grey pavers. In fact, a lot less grey everywhere would have been great. What were they thinking in a rainy city.

Or at least more giant birds. They could have had a giant nest on top of one of the buildings.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2011, 5:31 AM
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Agree with the comments about the buildings. Regarding the "canyon-like" streets, the problem is that no one in this country knows how to design such streets. First all all, they should have been car-free and lined with little shops and cafes to create interest at street level. That would have been interesting. Secondly, they should have used high-quality materials like machine cut granite instead of crappy looking grey pavers. In fact, a lot less grey everywhere would have been great. What were they thinking in a rainy city.

Or at least more giant birds. They could have had a giant nest on top of one of the buildings.
It will be interesting what Joo Kim Tiah cooks up in terms of an overall design. He's and up and coming young developer (and I might say pretty good on the eyes too..wondering if he has a boyfriend or is still single..hmmm)!
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  #38  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2011, 7:15 PM
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Nothing of real substance to note, except that the number Holborn has paid for the land is close to $300M. That's a real big nut. This project will have to be 2.5 times the size of the Olympic Village, that 2500-3000 unit count is something I've heard from a couple people in the last couple weeks.

I wouldn't expect to hear much publicly on Little Mountain until after the election, probably not until the Spring. This is move slowly and undoubtably awaken a lot of negative feedback from the neighbouring community.
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  #39  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2011, 8:54 PM
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I had heard $230M and that they were aiming for ~2000units (not including the non-market). Not sure which number is accurate but either way they aren't too far off from each other. It's going to have to be much larger scale then the locals want in order for Holborn to break even.
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  #40  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2011, 8:59 PM
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I wouldn't expect to hear much publicly on Little Mountain until after the election, probably not until the Spring. This is move slowly and undoubtably awaken a lot of negative feedback from the neighbouring community.
I think it would be smart not to become an election issue.
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