HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #21  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2016, 7:01 AM
logan5's Avatar
logan5 logan5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Mt.Pleasant
Posts: 3,930
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
You can already see signs of the urban decay in Vancouver: overpriced, shrinking units; overcrowding into existing units (ie a family of 4 in a one bedroom); lack of park space; increasing street disorder.
Really? It seems to me that urban decay decreases as population density increases, as is the case for Vancouver, and more specifically the DTES where dramatic changes are happening.

Imo, the DTES is easily the cities most important urban renewal project. The impact the DTES will have on culture in Vancouver will be huge.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #22  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2016, 7:07 AM
Nathan's Avatar
Nathan Nathan is offline
Hmm....
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Regina
Posts: 3,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Interesting idea for a thread.

I wonder if we are truly seeing an urban renaissance, or is it simply a perfect storm of factors:

- the long-term trend migration to urban areas from rural areas continues unabated across the country

- immigration continues at near-record levels, and immigrants tend to settle in urban areas

- we are rapidly reaching the saturation point in terms of traffic congestion, road capacity and sprawl (and financial means to address/support them) in our large and medium-sized cities (even places like Halifax have surprisingly intense traffic jams now), which is pushing public officials to favour denser development patterns
I really don't see why they have to be mutually exclusive. Couldn't they be interconnected in a way? One could say that we are having a bit of an urban renaissance across most medium to large cities in the country for many reasons including, but not limited to, the ones you listed, no?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #23  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2016, 1:42 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Monsieur Sainte-Nitouche
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 32,147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
I really don't see why they have to be mutually exclusive. Couldn't they be interconnected in a way? One could say that we are having a bit of an urban renaissance across most medium to large cities in the country for many reasons including, but not limited to, the ones you listed, no?
I guess you could say that. There is a cause-effect relationship there.
__________________
SSP Canada's Most Interesting Man
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #24  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2016, 1:49 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Monsieur Sainte-Nitouche
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 32,147
Along the same lines as what WhipperSnapper was saying, I don't think that the SFH is even close to being passé.

As such, it's the ultimate "have your cake and eat it too" housing product.

That's why people who can afford it (or who can qualify to borrow) are still paying 1 million or more for SFHs in Toronto.

The decline in the share of SFHs in the housing market is partly related to changes in households and tastes to some degree, but by far the biggest factors in the decline are affordability and location (traffic and transport especially) concerns.

If those issues that work against SFHs start to die down a bit, we can expect the market share of SFHs to being to rise again. (Though maybe not to historic levels.)

Human beings are fundamentally "have your cake and eat it too" creatures.
__________________
SSP Canada's Most Interesting Man
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #25  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2016, 2:35 PM
MonkeyRonin's Avatar
MonkeyRonin MonkeyRonin is offline
¥ ¥ ¥
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 5,984
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper View Post
The boom in Toronto is magnitudes bigger than any previous boom but, I don't find it particularly different from those. It's still driven by real estate speculation and any public enhancement is a product of that. A correction will ensue and people will lose faith in the condo market. We'll probably, once again, see suburbia take off until all is forgotten and the whole thing starts all over again.

There are two main factors driving the condo boom:

1. Land constraints have turned single-family homes into a finite resource that has reached its peak - while the population continues to grow.

2. Desire to live close to the centre of the city, where single-family homes are definitely a finite resource.


Neither of these are likely to change any time soon. There is little land left inside the greenbelt to expand into further, and even if there were, there isn't adequate transportation infrastructure to make it desirable (no one wants a multi-hour commute). And aside from dwindling availability pushing up prices, municipalities are going to continue to zone for multi-family to meet their growth.

The condo boom isn't about fickle buyer preference or real estate speculation gone mad - it's a necessary and inevitable part of Toronto's journey towards a megacity. Slowdowns in the market can be expected, but the only thing that will stop it is economic or demographic collapse.
__________________
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2016, 2:41 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: La vraie capitale
Posts: 13,861
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
There are two main factors driving the condo boom:

1. Land constraints have turned single-family homes into a finite resource that has reached its peak - while the population continues to grow.

2. Desire to live close to the centre of the city, where single-family homes are definitely a finite resource.


Neither of these are likely to change any time soon. There is little land left inside the greenbelt to expand into further, and even if there were, there isn't adequate transportation infrastructure to make it desirable (no one wants a multi-hour commute). And aside from dwindling availability pushing up prices, municipalities are going to continue to zone for multi-family to meet their growth.

The condo boom isn't about fickle buyer preference or real estate speculation gone mad - it's a necessary and inevitable part of Toronto's journey towards a megacity. Slowdowns in the market can be expected, but the only thing that will stop it is economic or demographic collapse.
With #2 being driven in no small measure by #1 - making lemonade from lemons, as it were.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #27  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2016, 3:24 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Monsieur Sainte-Nitouche
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 32,147
I would say that in the GTA the situation in the 80s where you had a decent amount of open land suitable for SFHs within striking distance of downtown in Ajax-Pickering, Markham, Vaughan, Mississauga and even Scarborough is gone forever, but still...

On the other hand, today you can still buy SFHs on greenfield lots only 25-30 km from the Eiffel Tower.

So reports of the death of the SFH (even in mega metros) are greatly exaggerated.
__________________
SSP Canada's Most Interesting Man
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #28  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2016, 4:11 PM
GreaterMontréal's Avatar
GreaterMontréal GreaterMontréal is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,639
the REM in Montréal. Montréal rentre dans une période de renaissance assez incroyable.
__________________
There's only so much fortune a man needs and the rest is just for showing off.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #29  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2016, 4:27 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lévis, QC
Posts: 18,931
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
2. Desire to live close to the centre of the city, where single-family homes are definitely a finite resource.
I would say the true criterion is a desire to have the shortest and cheapest possible commute to everything -- including obviously the jobs -- that the downtown has to offer.

If there was some kind of warpgate in Barrie that could teleport people for free to the CBD of Toronto, it's guaranteed you'd see a big real estate boom around that warpgate.

You can't create more land in Vancouver, but you can choose to build a super-express direct TGV line to Chilliwack, which basically ends up having the same effect in practice, i.e. conjuring up brand new land "close" to downtown Vancouver.

People love their SFHs, for good reason, and if they can have their cake and eat it too -- for example, pretty much all of my Montreal friends have SFHs on the south shore and take transit to their good jobs in the Montreal CBD, my sister is the only exception, she lives in Villeray, on island -- they will happily do so.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #30  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2016, 5:04 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,243
How will rural and small town Canada fare in the years and decades to come? Could families decide that the housing prices and hustle of the big city are too much for them?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #31  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2016, 5:31 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Monsieur Sainte-Nitouche
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 32,147
Quote:
Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
How will rural and small town Canada fare in the years and decades to come? Could families decide that the housing prices and hustle of the big city are too much for them?
I think that recent history gives us an indication of future trends.

Small towns that are regional centres will do all right as activities and services for the surrounding region will be concentrated there.

As for smaller towns and villages that are no regional centres I expect tough times for many of them.

With the exception of the ones located within an hour's drive (or 1.5 hours max) of major cities. I betcha many of these places will boom as relocation destinations for city slickers who don't need to go into the city five days a week, but like to be close enough to the city for shopping, outings, health care, airports, etc.
__________________
SSP Canada's Most Interesting Man
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #32  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2016, 5:56 PM
WhipperSnapper's Avatar
WhipperSnapper WhipperSnapper is offline
I am the law!
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Toronto+
Posts: 16,374
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
There are two main factors driving the condo boom:

1. Land constraints have turned single-family homes into a finite resource that has reached its peak - while the population continues to grow.

2. Desire to live close to the centre of the city, where single-family homes are definitely a finite resource.


Neither of these are likely to change any time soon. There is little land left inside the greenbelt to expand into further, and even if there were, there isn't adequate transportation infrastructure to make it desirable (no one wants a multi-hour commute). And aside from dwindling availability pushing up prices, municipalities are going to continue to zone for multi-family to meet their growth.

The condo boom isn't about fickle buyer preference or real estate speculation gone mad - it's a necessary and inevitable part of Toronto's journey towards a megacity. Slowdowns in the market can be expected, but the only thing that will stop it is economic or demographic collapse.
1. I here this all the time. There is plenty of space left to build affordable lowrise subdivisions inside Toronto let alone the greenbelt. The several billion of dollars that have gone into improving innercity rail can't be ignored either.

2. Sure if you want to live downtown however, we are a megacity of many communities served with multiple centres.

Of course, real estate speculation has gone mad. People buying prebuilt with the expected delivery 5 years down the road is the definition of real estate speculation. I'm not denying the trend for people to live in condo high rises. I'm saying the trend won't hold up once the overbuilt, overvalued market corrects itself. It has happened before. I don't see any difference between now and back then. Even the levels of government are doing everything to keep the boom going. There's no point for them to do so if the corny journey holds water.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #33  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2016, 8:22 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is online now
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 19,366
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
I would say the true criterion is a desire to have the shortest and cheapest possible commute to everything -- including obviously the jobs -- that the downtown has to offer.
Yeah, I think this is underappreciated, or at least a lot of people don't seem to think clearly about it. Land is desirable only if it has good access to the amenities people expect and that is completely dependent on what transportation options are available.

A lot of Canadian cities are actually getting harder to travel around in by car, and transit is slow to improve, so people are piling into the few pedestrian-friendly neighbourhoods that survived the 1950's-90's and are paying more and more of a premium to live in inner suburbs.

Vancouver has a really bad transportation network in the sense that travel around the city is slow. If you need to travel right along one of the few SkyTrain lines then it's okay (well, not at night when the system is shut down), but only a few trips are like that (~20% of commuters). A lot of people have to rely on cars and travel by car is extremely slow; probably a lot worse than it was back in, say, 1950.

My average travel speed while commuting is around 20 km/h and I live and work right next to rapid transit stations. I cross maybe 1/3 of the built up part of the metro area to get to work, around 15 km. Even within Vancouver travel's pretty slow. Yesterday it took 45 minutes to get across the city of Vancouver itself by car, from around UBC to Boundary. There's no rapid transit along most of that route and there are no highways.
__________________
flickr
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #34  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 5:00 AM
ssiguy ssiguy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 5,658
Interesting idea for a thread.

I think it's quite obvious that Canadian cities are seeing an urban renaissance, some more than others. The young are moving back downtown and governments are finally giving the cities the respect and money they desperately need. This, however, is not unique to Canada as it's happening all over the Western world.

I think the real issue is which Canadian cities will lead the renaissance and are we changing enough to keep pace with other countries.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #35  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 5:22 AM
GreaterMontréal's Avatar
GreaterMontréal GreaterMontréal is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,639
I think Montréal has a bad reputation with its infrastructures, but it's about to change in a big way. Champlain , how much hatred the bridge receives , Turcot = epic fail right now ,
Bonaventure - A-720 , all look really bad. The new city entrances will give a new look to the city. The REM on the new Champlain will look world-class. In term of infra,
Montréal comes from very far, 10 years ago, I would have not believe it.

then we have Ste-Catherine street, who will be completely re-imagined. There are a lot of public realm projects in Montréal.
__________________
There's only so much fortune a man needs and the rest is just for showing off.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #36  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 8:04 AM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is online now
I ♣ Baby Seals
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: See post below...
Posts: 25,453
Renaissance might be a bit of a stretch generally. Canada is not reinventing the wheel or doing much terribly innovative and exciting. However, I think it is fair to use the term for TO and Calgary, if only for the size of their building booms. You could even use it, per capita, for Halifax.

Here, I'd be comfortable using it for the dining scene. To go from a city where fine dining consisted of various sizes of battered, deep-fried chunks of seafood, to one with a half dozen of Canada's best restaurants and a thriving foodie culture embraced by locals, in just a decade, has been fascinating to watch and even better to taste.
__________________
Note to self: "The plural of anecdote is not evidence."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #37  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 9:36 AM
Marshal Marshal is offline
from the inside out
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 934
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
You can't create more land in Vancouver . . .
Just being stupid: The Fraser River is creating land every second that the ocean isn't flooding up it. But, being less stupid: when very large infrastructure (port, YVR, ferries) needs land, land that doesn't exist for them any more than it does for housing and other things, thanks to the Fraser's building of the tidal flats it is economical to create the land needed by fill.
__________________
. . . the third eye squirms when you do that . . .
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #38  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 10:56 AM
Mister F Mister F is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper View Post
1. I here this all the time. There is plenty of space left to build affordable lowrise subdivisions inside Toronto let alone the greenbelt. The several billion of dollars that have gone into improving innercity rail can't be ignored either.
The only space left inside Toronto is old industrial land and outdated commercial centres that are getting redeveloped. And they're not getting built as single detached. There's a lot of space inside the Greenbelt, but that's only because houses are getting developed with smaller lots and suburbs are building a lot more multiple housing than they used to. The Places to Grow growth plan has a lot to do with that and it goes hand in hand with the Greenbelt and Oak Ridges Moraine plans. People's living decisions also have a lot to do with what kind of infrastructure is being built, and that focus in the GTA has shifted from highways to regional rail.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #39  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 1:31 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: La vraie capitale
Posts: 13,861
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Interesting idea for a thread.

I think it's quite obvious that Canadian cities are seeing an urban renaissance, some more than others. The young are moving back downtown and governments are finally giving the cities the respect and money they desperately need. This, however, is not unique to Canada as it's happening all over the Western world.

I think the real issue is which Canadian cities will lead the renaissance and are we changing enough to keep pace with other countries.
Relevance? It makes it sound like some sort of competition
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #40  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 1:34 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: La vraie capitale
Posts: 13,861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal View Post
Just being stupid: The Fraser River is creating land every second that the ocean isn't flooding up it. But, being less stupid: when very large infrastructure (port, YVR, ferries) needs land, land that doesn't exist for them any more than it does for housing and other things, thanks to the Fraser's building of the tidal flats it is economical to create the land needed by fill.
Vancouver could create a good bit of land by reclaiming more of False Creek!
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 2:26 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.