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  #1  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 1:00 AM
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The "me-too" movement

I think it's about time we talked about this issue as it now has gone from the entertainment and business realm into the halls of power in our political institutions.

I am very glad that this issue is finally coming to light and these men are getting their just rewards. It's not {like rape} a sexual issue as much as it is one of power and men still run our world.

I do have 2 main concerns however about the me-too movement. First, what happened to the idea of being innocent until proven guilty? Everyone regardless of their alleged crimes has the right to have their day in court but now it seems public opinion is the only court that matters. Right now I think these allegations are probably true as "coming out" is still rather precarious but as time goes on and people are encouraged to bring these men to justice you will inevitably start getting women {or men} who see nothing but dollar signs in front of them or just want to get their name in the papers, or use it as a bargaining chip for wage increases or hiring..........give me what I want or I'll go public with an event that never happened and you will pay the price, economically and socially.

Second, this seems to be taking the justice out of the justice system. Right now everyone is being fired from their jobs left, right, and centre but is that fair? Is that just? Currently we are treating someone who may just say "you look nice today" or make a similar such rather banal comment the same as someone who whips out their dick or demands sexual favours for a job or advancement. Slapping someone in the face is not the same as getting a pipe and beating them to a pulp and is viewed differently by the courts and the justice system correctly sentences those crimes differently but not now with "me-too". Everyone is getting fired and taking huge financial and social loses for completely different offenses.
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Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 1:54 AM
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There are multi-facets to the issue.

First, is that not every form of sexual harassment is illegal. Calling a women subordinate yummy in an elevator is an inappropriate comment, but no one is going to jail over it. It does create a hostile work environment and is degrading and should be punished. Not all offences which lead to termination are actually technically illegal by Canadian law and end up with people behind bars. There is a difference between the justice system and what a workplace defines as appropriate behaviour.

Second, regarding the presumption of innocence, most of the serious allegations do have a large amount of corroboration around them. Regarding the Patrick Brown allegations, witnesses were interviewed, a social media timeline was established, there was text message, social media, and so on - history. All the numbers add up to establish that the events happened. Typically for the most serious allegations, these investigations are done. While the media is certainly not a replacement for the justice system in these cases, if there was impropriety, it needs to be dealt with immediately, lest you expose more victims to potential abuse.

It's not a perfect system by any means, but waiting 2-3 years for things to go to trial and be resolved fully by the courts is also not an option if there is the potential for more abuse, and even if a court finds the individual innocent, that doesn't mean they violated fundamental common sense workplace ethics rules and should be fired anyway.
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Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 2:14 AM
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Aside from what's already been mentioned, it makes me uneasy when people talk as though males can only be perpetrators of sexual harassment and females can only be victims.
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Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 2:28 AM
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Aside from what's already been mentioned, it makes me uneasy when people talk as though white males can only be perpetrators of sexual harassment and females can only be victims.
Fixed that for you.
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Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 2:34 AM
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^I don't know about that. the #metoo movement came out swinging against Aziz Ansari, who is a darling among 'woke' millennials because he's a non-practicing Muslim and his show tries to emphasize non-white actors (the accusation against him was largely dismissed because it was so ridiculous). Up until a few days ago, I was still seeing hufffpost articles posted by the more SJW-ish element on Facebook about how Aziz Ansari still embodies rape culture even if he didn't actually rape.

It predates #metoo, but Bill Cosby was taken down by similar forces.
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  #6  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 2:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
I think it's about time we talked about this issue as it now has gone from the entertainment and business realm into the halls of power in our political institutions.

I am very glad that this issue is finally coming to light and these men are getting their just rewards. It's not {like rape} a sexual issue as much as it is one of power and men still run our world.

I do have 2 main concerns however about the me-too movement. First, what happened to the idea of being innocent until proven guilty? Everyone regardless of their alleged crimes has the right to have their day in court but now it seems public opinion is the only court that matters. Right now I think these allegations are probably true as "coming out" is still rather precarious but as time goes on and people are encouraged to bring these men to justice you will inevitably start getting women {or men} who see nothing but dollar signs in front of them or just want to get their name in the papers, or use it as a bargaining chip for wage increases or hiring..........give me what I want or I'll go public with an event that never happened and you will pay the price, economically and socially.

Second, this seems to be taking the justice out of the justice system. Right now everyone is being fired from their jobs left, right, and centre but is that fair? Is that just? Currently we are treating someone who may just say "you look nice today" or make a similar such rather banal comment the same as someone who whips out their dick or demands sexual favours for a job or advancement. Slapping someone in the face is not the same as getting a pipe and beating them to a pulp and is viewed differently by the courts and the justice system correctly sentences those crimes differently but not now with "me-too". Everyone is getting fired and taking huge financial and social loses for completely different offenses.
I think many would share your concerns but many of the cases we're hearing about would never make it to or through the justice system. And even if they did, the justice system has not exactly crowned itself in glory with the way it deals with sexual assault, although things seem to be improving. I don't know where it's leading but at the moment it's at least as much about change as it is about justice.
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  #7  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 2:37 AM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Aside from what's already been mentioned, it makes me uneasy when people talk as though males can only be perpetrators of sexual harassment and females can only be victims.
We've already seen some high profile cases where the victims are male.
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  #8  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 2:57 AM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
I think many would share your concerns but many of the cases we're hearing about would never make it to or through the justice system. And even if they did, the justice system has not exactly crowned itself in glory with the way it deals with sexual assault, although things seem to be improving. I don't know where it's leading but at the moment it's at least as much about change as it is about justice.
Some recent history:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...wyer-1.4401191
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  #9  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 2:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
^I don't know about that. the #metoo movement came out swinging against Aziz Ansari, who is a darling among 'woke' millennials because he's a non-practicing Muslim and his show tries to emphasize non-white actors (the accusation against him was largely dismissed because it was so ridiculous). Up until a few days ago, I was still seeing hufffpost articles posted by the more SJW-ish element on Facebook about how Aziz Ansari still embodies rape culture even if he didn't actually rape.

It predates #metoo, but Bill Cosby was taken down by similar forces.
True enough. The Ansari debacle still stuns me given all you mentioned.
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  #10  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 3:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
^I don't know about that. the #metoo movement came out swinging against Aziz Ansari, who is a darling among 'woke' millennials because he's a non-practicing Muslim and his show tries to emphasize non-white actors (the accusation against him was largely dismissed because it was so ridiculous).
I disagree. There were a number of women who refused to join with the accuser because the accusations were so absurd. The only thing we learned about Aziz throughout the entire ordeal was that he is painfully awkward.

I do agree that Cosby was brought down prior to the #metoo movement forming but should probably be included in its leadup.
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  #11  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 3:14 AM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
I think many would share your concerns but many of the cases we're hearing about would never make it to or through the justice system. And even if they did, the justice system has not exactly crowned itself in glory with the way it deals with sexual assault, although things seem to be improving. I don't know where it's leading but at the moment it's at least as much about change as it is about justice.
The Court of Public Opinion has newly acquired powers, but is not yet well developed in the exercise of justice.
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  #12  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 3:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
^I don't know about that. the #metoo movement came out swinging against Aziz Ansari, who is a darling among 'woke' millennials because he's a non-practicing Muslim and his show tries to emphasize non-white actors (the accusation against him was largely dismissed because it was so ridiculous). Up until a few days ago, I was still seeing hufffpost articles posted by the more SJW-ish element on Facebook about how Aziz Ansari still embodies rape culture even if he didn't actually rape.

It predates #metoo, but Bill Cosby was taken down by similar forces.
The case against Ansari isn't much. Punishment? Not much to be meted out. Instruction? I think there is a lot to learn from it.

The original handling of the story was awful. The Babe.com article was designed to get Babe.com out there instead of reporting on abuse. It was a case of ethics be damned.
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  #13  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 3:56 AM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
First, what happened to the idea of being innocent until proven guilty? Everyone regardless of their alleged crimes has the right to have their day in court but now it seems public opinion is the only court that matters.
In the US, there is a statute of limitations on rape and sexual assault (which is absurd and disgusting and slowly changing but it is what it is), an so in many cases, if the assaults happened too long ago, court simply isn't much of an option unless they take the route of suing the accuser for defamation. But even then, it can be quite hard to prove a rape, even if it was violent. It's less difficult today than it was in the 1970s but it's still not an easy task and the process forces the victim to live through the experience over and over again. Women who make accusations of rape, legitimate or not, also face threats from people who support the defendant, and in many cases are forced out of jobs, homes, or away from their hometown entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Right now I think these allegations are probably true as "coming out" is still rather precarious but as time goes on and people are encouraged to bring these men to justice you will inevitably start getting women {or men} who see nothing but dollar signs in front of them or just want to get their name in the papers, or use it as a bargaining chip for wage increases or hiring..........give me what I want or I'll go public with an event that never happened and you will pay the price, economically and socially.
Name someone who has gotten what they want by accusing someone of rape. And regardless, that is extortion and the victim in that case can charge them with that and it can all play out in court. Innocent until proven guilty.

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Second, this seems to be taking the justice out of the justice system. Right now everyone is being fired from their jobs left, right, and centre but is that fair? Is that just?
Neither. It's expedient. Same reason racists get fired: having notorious people on your staff is a financial liability, or in politics, it's a political liability. If Patrick Brown or Kent Hehr hadn't stepped down, it would have hurt the parties' reputations, not just their own reputations. Look at what happened last month in Alabama's special senate election.

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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Currently we are treating someone who may just say "you look nice today" or make a similar such rather banal comment the same as someone who whips out their dick or demands sexual favours for a job or advancement.
What they're saying isn't as simply as a single "you look nice today", women aren't risking their own reputation and safety because a man told them they look nice today. Take a moment to look up the kinds of things men say to women, it's far worse than "you look nice today".

It's not the same as whipping our your dick or forcing yourself on someone, but they're both on the wrong side of the line. Murdering someone is worse than breaking into someone's house when they're not home, but both are crime and if a politician did either of those, they'd still be out on their ass either way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Slapping someone in the face is not the same as getting a pipe and beating them to a pulp and is viewed differently by the courts and the justice system correctly sentences those crimes differently but not now with "me-too". Everyone is getting fired and taking huge financial and social loses for completely different offenses.
True, the punishment for actually raping someone should be prison, not "will spend a week in rehab for non-disclosed behavioural issues".

This is all still fairly recent, there's a chance some or even many of the men who have been accused over the past year will come back later on in some way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
There are multi-facets to the issue.

First, is that not every form of sexual harassment is illegal. Calling a women subordinate yummy in an elevator is an inappropriate comment, but no one is going to jail over it. It does create a hostile work environment and is degrading and should be punished. Not all offences which lead to termination are actually technically illegal by Canadian law and end up with people behind bars. There is a difference between the justice system and what a workplace defines as appropriate behaviour.

Second, regarding the presumption of innocence, most of the serious allegations do have a large amount of corroboration around them. Regarding the Patrick Brown allegations, witnesses were interviewed, a social media timeline was established, there was text message, social media, and so on - history. All the numbers add up to establish that the events happened. Typically for the most serious allegations, these investigations are done. While the media is certainly not a replacement for the justice system in these cases, if there was impropriety, it needs to be dealt with immediately, lest you expose more victims to potential abuse.

It's not a perfect system by any means, but waiting 2-3 years for things to go to trial and be resolved fully by the courts is also not an option if there is the potential for more abuse, and even if a court finds the individual innocent, that doesn't mean they violated fundamental common sense workplace ethics rules and should be fired anyway.
I actually agree with you for once. This is what, twice in a year?

Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Aside from what's already been mentioned, it makes me uneasy when people talk as though males can only be perpetrators of sexual harassment and females can only be victims.
As an inter-sectional feminist, I strongly share this sentiment. Sexual assault is very common in the gay community (where men are both perpetrators and victims, and can be in both roles at the same time) and there is also the sexual assault of young men and boys by adult women that often is responded to with sentiments like "lucky kid!" or "I wish I were him!" But I've met men who were that kid, and they didn't feel lucky. (I've never met Emmanuel Macron, though, so obviously experiences vary.) I actually know about a female pedophile luring boys in my neighbourhood and let me tell you, this idea that society (and therefore police) hold that men can't be victims or that young men sexually abused by older women are "lucky" is making the process of actually holding her responsible somewhat difficult. The #metoo movement needs to include non-female victims as well, or it's just going to be ignored by the people who need to hear it most. Women are the most frequent victims but they're not the only victims, and men aren't the only perpetrators.

Also, it's amazing how little most of society understands about communication and consent. I've seen a lot of women sharing conversations through Facebook recently when a man starts of telling them they're beautiful, after they thank him for the compliment he starts pressuring them to have a sexual relationship with him, and if they reject it, he turns into their weird Dr. Jeckell/Mr. Hyde thing that alternates between telling the women "I love you so much you can't understand" and "You're ugly and deserved to be raped". And this isn't isolated, I've seen comments like this for years and it's just getting more and more common now as this movement spreads.

It reminds me of a few years ago, one member on this site sent photos of his anus to a bunch of men and started insulting them when they told him they didn't want to see it. What do they honestly think the response will be when they do that?? My mom's Facebook profile picture is our cat, there isn't a single photo of her on her page, but she gets several messages from anonymous men every month telling her she's beautiful and they want to have sex with her. One time when I had my Giada de Laurentiis avatar some random guy from Alabama sent me a PM calling me beautiful, like, what? I'm going to travel 500 miles and fuck him? He honestly thought that I was her and choose a photo of "me" squeezing tomatoes to represent "myself" on a discussion board? Fuck some people are just stupid.
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Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 4:08 AM
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I look at this and think what a double standard we are creating. What about all kinds of non-sexual abuse that is often widespread in the work place? While we stamp out sexual harassment (which is good and I have seen it blatantly in the past), other forms of abuse are even encouraged in their place. I see it regularly.
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Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 4:09 AM
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I look at this and think what a double standard we are creating. What about all kinds of non-sexual abuse that is often widespread in the work place? While we stamp out sexual harassment (which is good and I have seen it blatantly in the past), other forms of abuse are even encouraged in their place. I see it regularly.
Some examples?
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  #16  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 4:16 AM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
^I don't know about that. the #metoo movement came out swinging against Aziz Ansari, who is a darling among 'woke' millennials because he's a non-practicing Muslim and his show tries to emphasize non-white actors (the accusation against him was largely dismissed because it was so ridiculous). Up until a few days ago, I was still seeing hufffpost articles posted by the more SJW-ish element on Facebook about how Aziz Ansari still embodies rape culture even if he didn't actually rape.

It predates #metoo, but Bill Cosby was taken down by similar forces.
and how can anyone forget the case of Jian Ghomeshi?
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Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 4:17 AM
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
There are multi-facets to the issue.

First, is that not every form of sexual harassment is illegal. Calling a women subordinate yummy in an elevator is an inappropriate comment, but no one is going to jail over it. It does create a hostile work environment and is degrading and should be punished. Not all offences which lead to termination are actually technically illegal by Canadian law and end up with people behind bars. There is a difference between the justice system and what a workplace defines as appropriate behaviour.

Second, regarding the presumption of innocence, most of the serious allegations do have a large amount of corroboration around them. Regarding the Patrick Brown allegations, witnesses were interviewed, a social media timeline was established, there was text message, social media, and so on - history. All the numbers add up to establish that the events happened. Typically for the most serious allegations, these investigations are done. While the media is certainly not a replacement for the justice system in these cases, if there was impropriety, it needs to be dealt with immediately, lest you expose more victims to potential abuse.

It's not a perfect system by any means, but waiting 2-3 years for things to go to trial and be resolved fully by the courts is also not an option if there is the potential for more abuse, and even if a court finds the individual innocent, that doesn't mean they violated fundamental common sense workplace ethics rules and should be fired anyway.

agreed in full.
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  #18  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 4:36 AM
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What are we teaching (or not teaching) our kids that leads them to grow up to be these kinds of people? Why did these men assault those women?
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  #19  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 4:52 AM
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^A very broad question...

My advice to men is to either be celibate or to get married. And there's very little tongue-in-cheek in that statement unfortunately.
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  #20  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 5:04 AM
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^A very broad question...

My advice to men is to either be celibate or to get married. And there's very little tongue-in-cheek in that statement unfortunately.
Marriage doesn't excuse you from sexual assault anymore!
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