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  #21  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 5:12 AM
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nor should it.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 5:48 AM
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Like every legitimate revolution, they inheritors of the spoils end up eating up all the spoils. The Aziz situation was a good example of how you can throw away all your chips while you were on top.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 5:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce View Post
My advice to men is to either be celibate or to get married. And there's very little tongue-in-cheek in that statement unfortunately.
How about just to be nice to people and respectful of them? And not take advantage??
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  #24  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 6:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce View Post
^A very broad question...

My advice to men is to either be celibate or to get married. And there's very little tongue-in-cheek in that statement unfortunately.
I might know what you mean (and where you're coming from), but here's the thing:
Men should, first of all, simply stop feeling entitled towards women.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 6:31 AM
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I think I'm gonna start a counter-revolution. I'll make some Twitter posts about all the women who weren't interested in me when I was broke (#GoldDigger), and publically name every lousy lay I've had as a sexual assault, complete with photos and cam footage! Just to be an asshole like that

Let's see how these feminists like it when we give them a taste of their own medicine #YouWantedEquality #NowYouGotItBeezach

She was a lousy lay! #MeToo #OohMyPoorFeelings
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  #26  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 6:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ScreamingViking View Post
How about just to be nice to people and respectful of them? And not take advantage??
Well sure. If only it were that simple...

For those who have forgotten, particularly in the case of young people, dating (or 'hooking up' as the kids say) is messy. Neither party really knows how to behave or what the other is thinking or wants. It's rife with conflicted thoughts and mixed messages, moral questions, yesses and nos, regrets and desires. And, oh yeah, booze, drugs and hormones! How does one navigate that complexity in today's mad world?

And that's why my best advice to young men (and women) is to just keep it in your pants.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 6:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
I might know what you mean (and where you're coming from), but here's the thing:
Men should, first of all, simply stop feeling entitled towards women.
But what does that even mean? Please explain what men feel entitled to do?
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  #28  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 6:38 AM
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People are acting like the only options for men are to engage in constant vaguely ambiguous rape-y behaviours or be completely celibate. Some of us have found another way.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 6:52 AM
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^Monogamy?
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  #30  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 6:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce View Post
But what does that even mean? Please explain what men feel entitled to do?
How can I put it... (I actually have to think it through since what I said doesn't seem self-explanatory after all.)

When I said that a man feels entitled to a woman, I meant that he felt/thought that she was meant to be his wife/significant half. Then, he thinks that he can have his way. Next thing you know, when the woman turns him down, things get messy. (I really need to quote your last comment from here on to finish my point.)
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  #31  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 6:55 AM
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Consensual promiscuity.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 7:20 AM
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Originally Posted by mistercorporate View Post
Consensual promiscuity.
But how can you guarantee consent?

You'd have to discuss, explicitly, the nature of your relationship.
i.e. We'll meet for a drink and then go back to my place and engage in at least 1 hour of reasonably adequate sex. First I'll do (this). Then you'll do (that).

Signed...

Or you join a website or app where consent is essentially implicit. i.e. Everyone's looking for sex so...
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  #33  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 8:42 AM
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I can tell this group leans male quite dramatically based around the responses here.

You guys have it lucky, you don't get cat called, you don't get creepy guys sending you messages on facebook, you don't have to fear what a guy will do if you turn them down.

I support #MeToo and I don't even consider myself a hardcore feminist. Merely these women are right and are standing up for themselves in a way they never felt comfortable for before, thats a GOOD thing and a win for women's rights.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 1:57 PM
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What are we teaching (or not teaching) our kids that leads them to grow up to be these kinds of people? Why did these men assault those women?
" ... *allegedly* assault those women ...". Throwing around unproven accusations is all fun & games until the day comes where someone makes an allegations against YOU.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 2:10 PM
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
People are acting like the only options for men are to engage in constant vaguely ambiguous rape-y behaviours or be completely celibate. Some of us have found another way.
Bromance?
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  #36  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 2:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
There are multi-facets to the issue.

First, is that not every form of sexual harassment is illegal. Calling a women subordinate yummy in an elevator is an inappropriate comment, but no one is going to jail over it. It does create a hostile work environment and is degrading and should be punished. Not all offences which lead to termination are actually technically illegal by Canadian law and end up with people behind bars. There is a difference between the justice system and what a workplace defines as appropriate behaviour.

Second, regarding the presumption of innocence, most of the serious allegations do have a large amount of corroboration around them. Regarding the Patrick Brown allegations, witnesses were interviewed, a social media timeline was established, there was text message, social media, and so on - history. All the numbers add up to establish that the events happened. Typically for the most serious allegations, these investigations are done. While the media is certainly not a replacement for the justice system in these cases, if there was impropriety, it needs to be dealt with immediately, lest you expose more victims to potential abuse.

It's not a perfect system by any means, but waiting 2-3 years for things to go to trial and be resolved fully by the courts is also not an option if there is the potential for more abuse, and even if a court finds the individual innocent, that doesn't mean they violated fundamental common sense workplace ethics rules and should be fired anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
People are acting like the only options for men are to engage in constant vaguely ambiguous rape-y behaviours or be completely celibate. Some of us have found another way.


Agree with these points completely.

It is worth pointing out that the media vetting in Canada may not exist to the same extent in the US, simply due to libel laws. But in cases like Patrick Brown it was vetted extensively over several months, as you said. It's also not a forgone conclusion that those who come forward are doing so for money, fame or what have you. I'm sure it does exist in some cases, but in general for every public comment lauding those coming forward there's one calling for their heads to roll.

From my personal experience with women close to me (friends and girlfriends) I'd say at least 2/3rds experienced some form of sexual harassment in the workplace from someone in a position of power. And I'm not just talking about slightly inappropriate comments. It's easy to say they should have just reported it but if you are in a small company within a close-knit industry that isn't always as easy as it seems. Say, media for instance. There isn't always a faceless HR department to go to and when you accuse a VP of inappropriate behaviour they don't automatically get fired, despite the narrative currently (I do have personal examples of this). The balance of power in the entertainment industry and politics is even more skewed.

I've also relayed some stories from a former roommate of mine who was a family lawyer and represented sexual assault victims. She ended up switching careers because it was so soul destroying. Hearing stories about what you can go through at a police dept to report an assault (rape kits don't sound fun) and then having it simply turn into a long, drawn out "he said, she said" thing in court. And having to advise clients it's not worth going through with things because of that. There are reasons that people did not come forward with things promptly.


As an aside I was going on dates and chatting with women at bars not that long ago. These are not things I've ever worried about.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 2:45 PM
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Agree with these points completely.

It is worth pointing out that the media vetting in Canada may not exist to the same extent in the US, simply due to libel laws. But in cases like Patrick Brown it was vetted extensively over several months, as you said. It's also not a forgone conclusion that those who come forward are doing so for money, fame or what have you. I'm sure it does exist in some cases, but in general for every public comment lauding those coming forward there's one calling for their heads to roll.
.
This is all true but I think we need to decide if as a society if we want the media to increasingly play the role of judge and jury.

The court system is far from perfect in spite of the fact that it is subject to extensive oversight measures that have teeth. No such oversight exists for the media, and even less for social media where a lot of the "rulings" about people are taking place.

I find a bit disturbing the dismissive answer everyone always gives these days which is "sure, he wasn't given a fair trial but everything pointed to him being guilty anyway, so it's no big deal..."

At this point of the whole phenomenon anyone can come out with allegations and the person involved's life and career are for all intents and purposes ruined.

The Patrick Brown case was "vetted" for sure but the Kent Hehr case most definitely was not. In the latter case anyone who follows politics knows he was on thin ice anyway, but I am not sure it would have made much of a difference in the current climate: he would have been out no matter what, just based on a series of tweets.

It did not get much coverage in North America but the case of Carl Sargeant in Wales is a troublesome one.

Word comes out that he groped someone. They won't give him or anyone else outside of a select inner circle (it seems) any details about the allegations. But he still gets sacked and his name gets dragged through the mud. Still no details communicated to him nor made public, and under considerable stress we assume, he commits suicide. Several months after his death it's still totally unclear what this was about, if it was founded or unfounded or worthy of a deeper investigation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sargeant

Now, I have no idea if he did or didn't grope someone. But surely this does show quite clearly the potential dangers of this trend gone wild.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 2:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
There are multi-facets to the issue.

First, is that not every form of sexual harassment is illegal. Calling a women subordinate yummy in an elevator is an inappropriate comment, but no one is going to jail over it. It does create a hostile work environment and is degrading and should be punished. Not all offences which lead to termination are actually technically illegal by Canadian law and end up with people behind bars. There is a difference between the justice system and what a workplace defines as appropriate behaviour.

.
Good post BTW.

I do think that it's worth pointing out that in a workplace setting where non-illegal stuff like calling women "yummy" can lead to termination of employment, there is a nonetheless a process for investigating these allegations.

It's not exactly "let's gang up on George the Perv" and he's out the door lickety split.

Given the totally random, open potential for "slippage" (looking hard for an English word for dérapage which is like slipping out of control) and the serious consequences on people's lives, it's good that in most places of work there is an established framework for dealing with such things.

I am sorry if some people might see this as making things more difficult for victims to denounce their aggressors. That's certainly not what I want either - as a father, a husband, a son, a brother to a whole bunch of women.

We need to make a serious effort to improve the processes we have - not throw them out the window and replace them with the media (traditional and much less social).
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  #39  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 3:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
This is all true but I think we need to decide if as a society if we want the media to increasingly play the role of judge and jury.

The court system is far from perfect in spite of the fact that it is subject to extensive oversight measures that have teeth. No such oversight exists for the media, and even less for social media where a lot of the "rulings" about people are taking place.

I find a bit disturbing the dismissive answer everyone always gives these days which is "sure, he wasn't given a fair trial but everything pointed to him being guilty anyway, so it's no big deal..."

At this point of the whole phenomenon anyone can come out with allegations and the person involved's life and career are for all intents and purposes ruined.

The Patrick Brown case was "vetted" for sure but the Kent Hehr case most definitely was not. In the latter case anyone who follows politics knows he was on thin ice anyway, but I am not sure it would have made much of a difference in the current climate: he would have been out no matter what, just based on a series of tweets.

It did not get much coverage in North America but the case of Carl Sargeant in Wales is a troublesome one.

Word comes out that he groped someone. They won't give him or anyone else outside of a select inner circle (it seems) any details about the allegations. But he still gets sacked and his name gets dragged through the mud. Still no details communicated to him nor made public, and under considerable stress we assume, he commits suicide. Several months after his death it's still totally unclear what this was about, if it was founded or unfounded or worthy of a deeper investigation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sargeant

Now, I have no idea if he did or didn't grope someone. But surely this does show quite clearly the potential dangers of this trend gone wild.
I don't disagree with any of that, but keep in mind that many of the cases we're hearing about could never go to a court of law. If what is happening is about social change rather than justice then there will be casualties. It would be interesting to know whether the suicide in Wales had any impact on #metoo in the UK.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 3:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Good post BTW.

I do think that it's worth pointing out that in a workplace setting where non-illegal stuff like calling women "yummy" can lead to termination of employment, there is a nonetheless a process for investigating these allegations.

The problem is that in many cases there isn't, or what exists is simply lip service. Working in the public service there is absolutely a robust system to report things and I know people who have gone through it which resulted in a termination. I imagine things are similar at large corporations as well. The process isn't fun, but it generally works, I think.

But in some organizations / industries this just isn't the case. As I mentioned above I know people who, if they reported what happened, nothing would be likely to happen. And that's kind of a best case scenario - at worst they would become a pariah. I think that's a big part of why things became endemic within certain circles and reached a breaking point where we are now.

I'm not really sure what the solution is, and I don't think it's ideal having the media play the judge and jury. But I understand why we have reached that point. As I mentioned above too, even for cases where a clearly illegal action took place the court system isn't really ideal as it currently exists.
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