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  #61  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 7:10 PM
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Originally Posted by niwell View Post
That is true, but in this day and age people are also likely to forget about things in nano-seconds. The online world has a collective memory the size of a goldfish. In my experience things usually tend to stick only after someone doubles down on something.
But the NEW reality is that people could lose their jobs or have their reputations ruined in the process, while those who throw stones and set fire forget about their actions in nano seconds and move on to the next victims. And the worst thing is that increasingly it seems okay by the cruel general public.
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  #62  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 7:19 PM
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I think people are being deliberately obtuse in characterising what is actually happening and what people actually have a problem with. In both the Kent Hehr case and the Patrick Brown case, we are talking about individuals in a position of authority preying on individuals who work for them. That is inappropriate workplace conduct, and in both cases the circumstances of the events seem to clearly indicate impropriety with respect to their positions.

No one is talking about guys using pick up lines at a bar and getting shot down. No one is talking about "the chase" of girls playing hard to get and guys being immediately guilty of sexual harassment "playing the game".

As far as a widespread chilling effect - GOOD. Look at what is happening and what has happened. A widespread chilling effect cannot be characterised as anything other than a positive. Things have been so out of balance for so long, people are equating having a widespread chilling effect as being the apocalypse, but that's just a sign of how people got comfortable with the status quo.

Again, I expect there to be quite a few bumps along the way. Progress towards justice and a more civil fair society is never a straight line linear path with no problems along the way. Are some careers and lives going to be ruined along the way, perhaps unjustly? Undoubtedly. But the pendulum is swinging the other way and on balance this is generally a good thing for society and for us to progress towards a better future.

We need to have this conversation. We all need to take it more seriously. And the responses littered in this very thread mocking the "me too" movement and inventing theoretical reasons for why it is a negative thing on society are telling of just how far we have to go to move towards that ideal. Just take a look at some of the responses in this thread, which "me too" detractors seem to be wilfully ignoring or tacitly accepting as status quo "the way society works".
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  #63  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 7:24 PM
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Unfortunately a lot of the discussion I see about sexual harassment unwittingly reinforces the old biases that caused some of these problems in the first place.

The first bad old concept was that women became worthless if they engaged in the wrong kinds of activities, like sex outside of marriage. It's not fun if a stranger grabs your butt without permission but it's also not an enormous life-altering tragedy. It should not cause major psychological damage.

The next outdated concept is the idea that women are powerless. This was embedded in the original concept of rape being about penetration and something a man can do to a woman. Women can be in positions of power too. They are not restricted to a hapless victim role.

Another one is that not everyone is heterosexual. It is common for gay men for example to get unwanted advances from women. Lately society has been obsessed about toilet protocols for the tiny percentage who are trans (which I don't necessarily see as a bad thing), yet most discussion on sexual harassment is extremely heteronormative. Just re-read this thread if you don't believe me.
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  #64  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 7:24 PM
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Wait a minute...unless I'm missing something, this situation with Patrick Brown is getting downright scary with how he's been drawn and quartered for "sexual misconduct with teenagers."

One case was meeting a drunk high school student in a bar taking her home and engaging in oral sex with her. At first blush that sounds creepy, but is it not fair to have assumptions about age when one is in a bar? The other was chatting up a university student in a plane, months later hiring her to work in his office, inviting her back to his place after a party, starting to kiss her when they're both on his bed, and then stopping when she told him to stop.

Fucking hell. This is sexual misconduct? Sexual hysteria, more like. I suppose it's inevitable with any sweeping cultural movement that people are going to get caught up in the whirlwind unfairly, but we all know what happens when you cry wolf.
I'll agree with you that the first incident is a bit of a stretch. She agreed to come back to his house and accepted a tour; though it was pretty crass of him to whip his dick out as soon they got to the bedroom. The second incident though, is quite rapey.. he got her extremely drunk, lured her into his bedroom with a friend who subsequently left and then literally climbed on to her to dry-hump even though she clearly didn't want it.

What makes this completely intolerable though, as geotag said, is his position of authority. He was more than willing to use his positions as Barrie city councillor and later Member of Parliament to pressure women into sexual favours.. that's not the kind of person who is in any way worthy to govern Ontario in Her Majesty's name.
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  #65  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 7:33 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Another one is that not everyone is heterosexual. It is common for gay men for example to get unwanted advances from women. Lately society has been obsessed about toilet protocols for the tiny percentage who are trans (which I don't necessarily see as a bad thing), yet most discussion on sexual harassment is extremely heteronormative. Just re-read this thread if you don't believe me.
I can empathise that the conversation tends to be dominated in a hetero-normative way, but that is partly simply a function of history, percentages, and volume of cases. It's just going to be a fact of life that one relationship in particular will dominate headlines, and that is the relationship of men sexually harassing women, especially as it relates to being in positions of power.

That said, I do see this as a rising tide lifts all boats situation, where other less voluminous (yet no less serious) cases will ride the coattails of the more widespread conversation about harassment. I do not see women -> men sexual harassment marginalised in conversations, or men -> men harassment marginalised - if anything, they seem to be less marginalised than the men -> women harassment relationship as evidenced by this thread.
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  #66  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 7:35 PM
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I think the #metoo movement is leading to innocent casualties (Asiz Ansari) and there are some dishonest individuals who are taking advantage of the situation. That said I think it is necessary and positive on the whole. I hope that it broadens in scope to include victims of childhood sexual abuse and that more men will feel comfortable coming forward. If current stats are to be believed 1 in 4 girls will experience sexual abuse as well as 1 in 6 boys. These numbers should be alarming to everyone. And no, not all abusers are male. I was abused by a female as a child. Women couldn’t even be charged with sexual abuse in Canada until the 80’s.
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  #67  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 7:40 PM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
I'll agree with you that the first incident is a bit of a stretch. She agreed to come back to his house and accepted a tour; though it was pretty crass of him to whip his dick out as soon they got to the bedroom. The second incident though, is quite rapey.. he got her extremely drunk, lured her into his bedroom with a friend who subsequently left and then literally climbed on to her to dry-hump even though she clearly didn't want it.

What makes this completely intolerable though, as geotag said, is his position of authority. He was more than willing to use his positions as Barrie city councillor and later Member of Parliament to pressure women into sexual favours.. that's not the kind of person who is in any way worthy to govern Ontario in Her Majesty's name.
I was going by a couple articles I read, and I didn't see that in the second case he'd offered to take her to India and had offered her other things as her boss. I agree that's crossing a line.

Though still, was that a one-off, or was there a pattern there? If there are more cases of him potentially abusing his authority, if he created a toxic atmosphere for many or most of the women working around him, then sure, there's a problem. But if it's just the one case, it seems more likely that he actually liked her, that this was just a ham-fisted attempt at seduction and/or starting up a relationship.

I think the emperor is starting to lose his clothes here. Things are being portrayed as sinister when they really aren't. I mean, I'm the last person who wants a Tory government in Ontario (or Canada), but this stinks to high heaven.

The Tory braying about Wynne/Liberal "corruption" vis-a-vis the gas plants etc. is baseless nonsense, but with the election coming up this summer, this really does look and smell like a case of Liberal perfidy.
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  #68  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 7:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
Though still, was that a one-off, or was there a pattern there? If there are more cases of him potentially abusing his authority, if he created a toxic atmosphere for many or most of the women working around him, then sure, there's a problem. But if it's just the one case, it seems more likely that he actually liked her, that this was just a ham-fisted attempt at seduction and/or starting up a relationship.
From what I've heard there definitely was a pattern. People were posting stuff about it on social media years ago, long before it had the chance to affect any election. At least one MPP has mentioned "persistent rumours": http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...ours-1.4505258

And as I posted in the JT thread this was more likely to have stemmed from within the PC party than the Liberals (if it were indeed some sort of set up).
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  #69  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 7:50 PM
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The story involving oral sex on it's own is not very interesting, but I think combined with the other story about getting the girl drunk and setting up the situation itself shows a pattern.

It's hard enough getting one woman to come forward and talk about this, but two women who feel they were wronged in similar ways against the same guy, one of whom was a staffer working directly for Brown, is very incriminating.

This shouldn't be brushed off.
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  #70  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 7:52 PM
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
The story involving oral sex on it's own is not very interesting, but I think combined with the other story about getting the girl drunk and setting up the situation itself shows a pattern.

It's hard enough getting one woman to come forward and talk about this, but two women who feel they were wronged in similar ways against the same guy, one of whom was a staffer working directly for Brown, is very incriminating.

This shouldn't be brushed off.
Agreed.
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  #71  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 7:57 PM
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Interesting and thought provoking article - I agree with some parts of it but others I think are a bit too simplistic an approach to a nuanced issue.
.
I forgot to mention that I did not check the translation versus the original French, although from the parts I read it seemed to be pretty consistent.
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  #72  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 8:06 PM
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I suppose my concerns for potential overreach in the "movement" are indicative of my status as a man who has had literally zero direct exposure to sexual harassment and very little indirect exposure aside from the odd historical admission told to me by women I've been involved with.

I guess it stands to reason that women are more concerned with shifting the culture so that abuses aren't winked at anymore than worrying about men who might unjustly get caught up in the maelstrom.

Last edited by rousseau; Jan 26, 2018 at 9:24 PM. Reason: Typo
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  #73  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 8:11 PM
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Trivializing the prevalence of sexual assault and sexual harassment--experienced by many (if not most for the latter) women at some point in their lives--is utterly reprehensible. It is akin to those that trivialized the racism and bigotry experienced by Black Americans during the Civil Rights Movement, and those that continue to trivialize the widespread prejudice faced by our First Nations communities.
I {and I think most decent people} totally agree with you but for me and many that is not the problem in terms of justice.

My problem is the fact that the media and public opinion and are now playing judge and jury. What if someone after their day in court is found completely innocent or even the accusers take the whole thing back? The person has already lost their job and even if they get it back with back-pay their reputations and future relationship are destroyed forever. It won't matter if the person is innocent they will always be viewed by their employers, future employers, neighbours, and the community at large as "the guy who was accused of sexual harassment" making him unjustly a terminal pariah. It could ruin his current relationships with friends, family, partner, and children all because of public opinion and media hysteria.

Also right now due to the media and politicians who want to look like they are "taking the matter seriously", we have a one-hit wonder of a justice system. Earlier I stated if someone says "you look nice today" at work most would consider it a friendly compliment but what is you get the odd person who takes it as an insult and harassing? Right now there is no middle ground it's "fire the bastard" time. Due to guilt by public opinion and the media it doesn't matter if the person whipped out their dick or threated employees with sexual overtones or just made that friendly comment, they are both getting the same sentence.
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  #74  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 8:16 PM
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
The story involving oral sex on it's own is not very interesting, but I think combined with the other story about getting the girl drunk and setting up the situation itself shows a pattern.

It's hard enough getting one woman to come forward and talk about this, but two women who feel they were wronged in similar ways against the same guy, one of whom was a staffer working directly for Brown, is very incriminating.

This shouldn't be brushed off.
sort of off topic, but is the girl being drunk an excuse for her actions of giving oral sex? If she were to get behind a wheel while being drunk, our society tells us that she is entirely responsible for her actions of driving drunk, and is punished accordingly. But when it comes her performing sexual actions, she is not responsible for her actions, and is now instead considered the victim?
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  #75  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Unfortunately a lot of the discussion I see about sexual harassment unwittingly reinforces the old biases that caused some of these problems in the first place.

The first bad old concept was that women became worthless if they engaged in the wrong kinds of activities, like sex outside of marriage. It's not fun if a stranger grabs your butt without permission but it's also not an enormous life-altering tragedy. It should not cause major psychological damage.

The next outdated concept is the idea that women are powerless. This was embedded in the original concept of rape being about penetration and something a man can do to a woman. Women can be in positions of power too. They are not restricted to a hapless victim role.

Another one is that not everyone is heterosexual. It is common for gay men for example to get unwanted advances from women. Lately society has been obsessed about toilet protocols for the tiny percentage who are trans (which I don't necessarily see as a bad thing), yet most discussion on sexual harassment is extremely heteronormative. Just re-read this thread if you don't believe me.
I get your point.

It's worth noting that the biggest scandal in Quebec in the post-Weinstein deluge involved a gay man (TV producer and talk show host) allegedly behaving inappropriately with men, some of them gay, some of them not gay.
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  #76  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 8:26 PM
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post

Again, I expect there to be quite a few bumps along the way. Progress towards justice and a more civil fair society is never a straight line linear path with no problems along the way. Are some careers and lives going to be ruined along the way, perhaps unjustly? Undoubtedly. But the pendulum is swinging the other way and on balance this is generally a good thing for society and for us to progress towards a better future.
.
If you're the one who's career and life gets ruined unfairly it's kind of a bummer, though.

Probably a lot bigger a bummer (pardon the pun) than getting your butt grabbed once for 2 seconds by some creepy asshole...

I totally get the need for the electric shock and wake-up call, but the appropriate response is a sea-change in our designated institutions and frameworks that should be effectively dealing with this stuff, not a massive hysterical transition to the people's court of Twitter and Facebook. Or even TMZ and CNN.
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  #77  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 8:43 PM
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sort of off topic, but is the girl being drunk an excuse for her actions of giving oral sex? If she were to get behind a wheel while being drunk, our society tells us that she is entirely responsible for her actions of driving drunk, and is punished accordingly. But when it comes her performing sexual actions, she is not responsible for her actions, and is now instead considered the victim?
Let's see, what do we have here.

A self styled soap box constructed to explicitly vent about theoretical issues which have no actual bearing on reality.

A general ignorance of the timeline of events to invoke the self constructed soap box.

A twisting of facts to blame the victim of sexual harassment.

A total ignorance of the abuse of power factors involved in the circumstances.

A general attitude which encourages other individuals to keep quiet about similar circumstances lest they be blamed as the victims and other crass ignorant comments to be made regarding the circumstances of your harassment.

When people lament about the potential for innocent lives being ruined, responses like this will be referenced to justify the necessity of collateral damage in forcing the conversation to be changed regarding the nature of these things.

Your time is up.
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  #78  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 8:54 PM
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I can tell this group leans male quite dramatically based around the responses here.

You guys have it lucky, you don't get cat called, you don't get creepy guys sending you messages on facebook, you don't have to fear what a guy will do if you turn them down.

I support #MeToo and I don't even consider myself a hardcore feminist. Merely these women are right and are standing up for themselves in a way they never felt comfortable for before, thats a GOOD thing and a win for women's rights.
And your insight has been ignored for 44 posts.
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  #79  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 8:58 PM
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  #80  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2018, 9:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Hackslack View Post
sort of off topic, but is the girl being drunk an excuse for her actions of giving oral sex? If she were to get behind a wheel while being drunk, our society tells us that she is entirely responsible for her actions of driving drunk, and is punished accordingly. But when it comes her performing sexual actions, she is not responsible for her actions, and is now instead considered the victim?

Valid point. I would say you are correct as long as she chose to drink and was not tricked into getting drunk in anyway.
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