Should Canada Be Preparing for a Destabilized USA?

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by rousseau

There are 27 private Islamic schools in the GTA according to this link: http://dailymuslims.com/schools/full...lamic-schools/.

I counted 14 Christian schools in the GTA according to this link*: http://www.ourkids.net/christian-schools-ontario.php.

Makes you think.



*This could be debatable. In my view, most of the schools at that link for ostensibly Christian schools are legacy "Anglican" or some such private boarding establishments going back to the 19th century or early 20th century that I would consider to be very much part of the woody Canadian establishment, i.e. more Robertson Davies than the 700 Club. I think they are fundamentally different from the much newer 14 Christian schools I picked out, as said 14 appear from their synopses to have a more explicit emphasis on faith and spirituality, and would therefore be more suited to an apples-to-apples comparison with Islamic schools.

I wouldn't consider Catholic high schools to be in the same league as Islamic schools for essentially the same reason. From what I know through my acquaintances with Catholics and Muslims over the years, being a secular kid with zero interest in religion, and behaving as such, is easy and widespread in Catholic high schools, but it most certainly is not possible in Islamic schools whatsoever in the slightest.

I'm not sure we can draw too much from this. Catholics are, by far, the largest Christian group in the region, comprising ~30% of the city's population. The Toronto Catholic District School Board operates 168 elementary schools, 31 arts schools and 2 arts schools; the Conseil scolaire de district catholique Centre-Sud operates 8 elementary schools and 2 high schools in the city. Several private Catholic schools--many, such as well-known St. Michael's College, gender segregated--also operate in the city. Some of these schools, from what I've heard, are very heavy on the religion--the sort where students are taught by priests and/or nuns.

Protestants comprised only ~12% of the city's population in 2011 and Christians, nie only ~10%. At 8% of the city's population, I would guess that Muslims now make up a larger segment of the population than Evangelicals. As Muslims are younger than average, I would guess that they comprise a larger chunk of the school-aged population.

As niwell pointed out, many of the Muslim schools you've identified are small operations. To further put that number in context, this website lists 107 Jewish schools in the GTHA (the city's Jewish population is less than half its Muslim population). There appear to be few (although not zero) private schools serving the area's large Christian Orthodox, Hindu, Buddhist and Sikh populations.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's generally considered in poor taste to raise this right now, given that the horrible tragedy is still fresh in our minds, but the reality is that in multiculturalist Canada, the Muslim community (or at least an assertive segment of it) is arguably the most demanding group in terms of accommodation. The reasonability of these demands is variable and highly dependent on one's point of view.

Can you back that up? Off the top of my head, I can think of notable accommodation cases involving everyone from Dutch Reformed Christians to Orthodox Jews and Sikhs to those practising various forms of Aboriginal spirituality. FWIW, I am unaware of any cases where a Muslim has demanded an extreme* form of accommodation (ex. no Muslim parent has argued for the right to withhold life-saving medical treatment from their child on religious grounds, as far as I know).

*Your definition of extreme might vary, of course, but I'd hope you can recognize a difference between, for example, the right to wear a piece of clothing--or even to avoid mixing with the opposite sex--and the right to let your child die of an entirely treatable illness (which has only been granted, IIRC, to a few Aboriginal families in cases that have invoked treaty rights in addition to/instead of religious accommodation).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Ahh, I see. It's really only the official accommodation at school and work that could come up here. Otherwise... what is there? In their homes, they do as they wish, in the street, they live as they wish.

I am sure you are aware of tons of other possibilities for accommodation requests (they come up here all the time), but the fact that these groups have little critical mass in SJ makes them unlikely to arise in the short term.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

Can you back that up? Off the top of my head, I can think of notable accommodation cases involving everyone from Dutch Reformed Christians to Orthodox Jews and Sikhs to those practising various forms of Aboriginal spirituality. FWIW, I am unaware of any cases where a Muslim has demanded an extreme* form of accommodation (ex. no Muslim parent has argued for the right to withhold life-saving medical treatment from their child on religious grounds, as far as I know).

*Your definition of extreme might vary, of course, but I'd hope you can recognize a difference between, for example, the right to wear a piece of clothing--or even to avoid mixing with the opposite sex--and the right to let your child die of an entirely treatable illness (which has only been granted, IIRC, to a few Aboriginal families in cases that have invoked treaty rights in addition to/instead of religious accommodation).

Well, I never used the word "extreme".

Sure, what you describe is extreme. Aboriginals aren't immigrants, though.

[SignalHillHiker]

I'm sure I'll look ever more like an idiot after this, but I genuinely don't have anything top of mine right now? What do you mean, additional, for accommodation? I'm drawing a blank, honestly.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

Can you back that up? Off the top of my head, I can think of notable accommodation cases involving everyone from Dutch Reformed Christians to Orthodox Jews and Sikhs to those practising various forms of Aboriginal spirituality. FWIW, I am unaware of any cases where a Muslim has demanded an extreme* form of accommodation (ex. no Muslim parent has argued for the right to withhold life-saving medical treatment from their child on religious grounds, as far as I know).

The extremes of any minority isn't the intensity of the requests, but the intensity of the effect.

Asking to work and operate in french is far from extreme by any measure, but it completely divides the country.

What starts as a polite request

turns into an expectation

which in turn creates a situation where we have to feel privileged to not feel the obligation of tiptoeing.

Many Canadians today I think take it for granted that we don't have to tiptoe around christian values.

Even in the most christian of places your never led to feel like a minority.

In contrast I think a lot of us would loose our minds if we had to live in a traditional evangelical/mormon dominated environments.

Honestly I think the only reason were so oblivious to this concept in Canada is because immigrant groups themselves are so fractured.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, I never used the word "extreme".

Sure, what you describe is extreme. Aboriginals aren't immigrants, though.

Nor are many Muslims.

Edited to respond to your post in full: I don't see where in the material I originally quoted accommodation is specifically related to immigration. Further, if reasonable accommodation is a general operating principle in our society, I don't see why immigration status should be invoked here. As for differentiating between extreme requests (which are generally denied) and those less so (those deemed reasonable), my only goal was to provide context for the accommodations sought by (some) Muslims.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

Nor are many Muslims.

Edited to respond to your post in full: I don't see where in the material I originally quoted accommodation is specifically related to immigration. Further, if reasonable accommodation is a general operating principle in our society, I don't see why immigration status should be invoked here. As for differentiating between extreme requests (which are generally denied) and those less so (those deemed reasonable), my only goal was to provide context for the accommodations sought by (some) Muslims.

Individuals are all equal under the law regardless of origin but to varying degrees, languages, religions and cultures aren't always equal.

That's why we don't have public schools that teach in Italian, Mandarin or Ukrainian, and Easter and Christmas are statutory holidays and the Eid(s) and Yom Kippour are not.

Getting back to the original issue you raised, in the Canadian context I have more time for accommodation based on aboriginal beliefs and culture than for stuff of any other origin. And this includes European origins.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I'm sure I'll look ever more like an idiot after this, but I genuinely don't have anything top of mine right now? What do you mean, additional, for accommodation? I'm drawing a blank, honestly.

C'mon SHH.

Requests to ban pork from school cafeterias.

Requests from university students to not have to work on projects with students from the opposite sex.

Requests for elementary school students to bring a knife to school for religious reasons.

etc.

[SignalHillHiker]

Oh, no. That has never happened here. We had local, NL-born-and-bred atheists push for every inclusive right we have in our school system.

It's still ongoing. All of the public schools in Newfoundland still have their Catholic or Anglican crosses and names. They're pushing to get even those removed... and this is the first point they've run up against REAL opposition, hipster opposition, because the hammer pants-wearing atheists/Buddhists in Georgestown neighbourhood consider this a step too far. I suspect they get some sort of slick, supremacist glee from the fact our public schools still have names like Holy Heart of Mary and St. Francis of Assissi, and Sheila Nageira but are secular. So they want to preserve that.

Anyhow, that's the current fight. A few schools have bowed and gotten rid of their Christian symbols or names (i.e. Waterford Valley High replaced Bishop Feild).

But Muslims or whatever else never comes into it. They find a place quietly in the ruins of what's left from the main battle between Catholics/Anglicans. That's mostly geographic today, as I've said 100 times. 14 year-olds here who are Anglican and raised in an Anglican neighbourhood DO NOT KNOW and are NEVER TOLD the reason they hate the next block over is because they're Catholic. They just hate them because that's St. Theresa's Mundy Pond, and they're All Saints Mundy Pond. It's not religious anymore. But the divisions are still there, and they're geographic, because we were already so segregated by faith anyway.

[HomeInMyShoes]

We've had requests to stop singing the national anthem at schools in Regina.

My dad was super pissed about that one. I've rarely seen him so patriotic. He came from Poland when he was four and he loves Canada. He thinks everyone should be grateful for what Canada affords us. He signs the anthem at the game because his country is important to the life he had and the life he was able to give his family. I am equally proud of that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

We've had requests to stop singing the national anthem at schools in Regina.

My dad was super pissed about that one. I've rarely seen him so patriotic. He came from Poland when he was four and he loves Canada. He thinks everyone should be grateful for what Canada affords us. He signs the anthem at the game because his country is important to the life he had and the life he was able to give his family. I am equally proud of that.

That's likely from Jehovah's Witnesses.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Oh, no. That has never happened here. We had local, NL-born-and-bred atheists push for every inclusive right we have in our school system.

It's still ongoing. All of the public schools in Newfoundland still have their Catholic or Anglican crosses and names. They're pushing to get even those removed... and this is the first point they've run up against REAL opposition, hipster opposition, because the hammer pants-wearing atheists/Buddhists in Georgestown neighbourhood consider this a step too far. I suspect they get some sort of slick, supremacist glee from the fact our public schools still have names like Holy Heart of Mary and St. Francis of Assissi, and Sheila Nageira but are secular. So they want to preserve that.

Anyhow, that's the current fight. A few schools have bowed and gotten rid of their Christian symbols or names (i.e. Waterford Valley High replaced Bishop Feild).

But Muslims or whatever else never comes into it. They find a place quietly in the ruins of what's left from the main battle between Catholics/Anglicans. That's mostly geographic today, as I've said 100 times. 14 year-olds here who are Anglican and raised in an Anglican neighbourhood DO NOT KNOW and are NEVER TOLD the reason they hate the next block over is because they're Catholic. They just hate them because that's St. Theresa's Mundy Pond, and they're All Saints Mundy Pond. It's not religious anymore. But the divisions are still there, and they're geographic, because we were already so segregated by faith anyway.

Back when my kids were younger, I was once in a daycare where on the wall they had a "tableau des allergies". There was a picture of each allergic child with what they were allergic to. Among those there was a picture of a little boy and it indicated that he was allergic to "porc".

Wanna bet he wasn't *physically* allergic to pork.

(Not saying I am opposed to this BTW.)

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

We've had requests to stop singing the national anthem at schools in Regina.

My dad was super pissed about that one. I've rarely seen him so patriotic. He came from Poland when he was four and he loves Canada. He thinks everyone should be grateful for what Canada affords us. He signs the anthem at the game because his country is important to the life he had and the life he was able to give his family. I am equally proud of that.

Wow, yeah, you don't get that reaction in St. Johns', even among Confederates who are even unconsciously pro-Canada. On the west coast of the island, yes, even missus who works at the local superette reacts like a soldier to any questioning of Canada.

But, yeah, in the capital it's definitely understood to be a conscious reaction to the facts - praise worthy, sure, depending on the viewer's politics, but certainly not and never mandated.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's likely from Jehovah's Witnesses.

Speaking as a JW, (AMA!) I can make a reasonably confident assumption that this wasn't "us". We'll ask that our kids not be forced to participate (or they just won't anyway) but likely won't lobby the school to remove the anthem for everyone else. That said, there are sometimes people who are associated (but not active) who have... unreasonable expectations... FWIW.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

Speaking as a JW, (AMA!) I can make a reasonably confident assumption that this wasn't "us". We'll ask that our kids not be forced to participate (or they just won't anyway) but likely won't lobby the school to remove the anthem for everyone else. That said, there are sometimes people who are associated (but not active) who have... unreasonable expectations... FWIW.

Thanks for chiming in with a dose of reality!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Wow, yeah, you don't get that reaction in St. Johns', even among Confederates who are even unconsciously pro-Canada. On the west coast of the island, yes, even missus who works at the local superette reacts like a soldier to any questioning of Canada.

But, yeah, in the capital it's definitely understood to be a conscious reaction to the facts - praise worthy, sure, depending on the viewer's politics, but certainly not and never mandated.

They don't even sing O Canada in francophone schools in Quebec. And that's 90% of the schools in Quebec.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

They don't even sing O Canada in francophone schools in Quebec. And that's 90% of the schools in Quebec.

Yeah, O Canada her is a given. EVERYONE does it. I could probably fit in my Honda Civic the number of people who are uncomfortable, like me, doing so. It really... it doesn't exist here. It's just me and some friends.

BUT... our old national anthem. You'll meet people who don't know it, sometimes, like Marty-McFly here on SSP... but that's... a superhuman feat to accomplish. We sing this everywhere you would sing O Canada - school starts, assemblies, hockey games, Canada Day, Memorial Day, Remembrance Day.... the Ode to New Founde Land is always performed.

So, this is in Corner Brook on the west coast, the part of the island least, by far, likely to know our old national anthem. So this is as unfamiliar and unsung as it gets:

• Video Link

When sun rays crown thy pine clad hills
And summer spreads her hand
When silvern voices tune thy rills
We love thee, smiling land,
We love thee, we love thee, we love thee smiling land

As loved our fathers, so we love
Where once they stood, we stand
Their prayer we raise to Heaven above:
God guard thee, New Founde Land
God guard thee, God guard thee, God guard thee New Founde Land

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Yeah, O Canada her is a given. EVERYONE does it. I could probably fit in my Honda Civic the number of people who are uncomfortable, like me, doing so. It really... it doesn't exist here. It's just me and some friends.

BUT... our old national anthem. You'll meet people who don't know it, sometimes, like Marty-McFly here on SSP... but that's... a superhuman feat to accomplish. We sing this everywhere you would sing O Canada - school starts, assemblies, hockey games, Canada Day, Memorial Day, Remembrance Day.... the Ode to New Founde Lande is always performed.

So, this is in Corner Brook on the west coast, the part of the island least, by far, likely to know our old national anthem. So this is as unfamiliar and unsung as it gets:

• Video Link

The end result in Quebec is that we rarely sing anything at all of this sort, anywhere. Except for hockey games and... Liberal party rallies I suppose.

We're kinda nihilistic in that way.

[niwell]

Are we talking about O Canada every morning when school starts? Or just during assemblies or other important dates?

Growing up in Alberta we only sang it before the latter. The concept of a national anthem before school every day is weird to me, although I don't really care one way or the other.