Washington DC: Rail transit

[202_Cyclist]

aquablue:

Hey, I heard that the new Dulles rail link will be useless for DC due to time. How long will it take to get to Dulles from DC on the new metro link?

If it's over one hour, all I can say is --- idiotic shortsighted planning will come back to haunt you, my dear Washington Area.

I really hate this crap. How hard is it to put in some bypass tracks at stations so we could have express service like any proper civilized country?

So the Dulles rail line is going to be for Tysons and Reston basically? Pathetic. God, I really hate this sprawl-ville. DC is almost left out of the equation. Dulles is supposed to WASHINGTON's INTL. airport, remember? Not just Virginia's.
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Providing a connection from DC to Dulles is largely a secondary concern of the Silver Line. This is about the development of the Dulles corridor and the redevelopment of Tysons. I don't know if you have seen the Tysons thread under the City Compilations section but what is planned for Tysons is truly massive. It is the large redevelopment of an edge city in the country. When completed, it is expected to have a larger downtown than either Seattle or Houston: http://greatergreaterwashington.org/...-smart-growth/

Similarly, in the past two decades the job growth in the Dulles corridor and western Fairfax has also been significant. I read somewhere that Northern Virginia has more high tech jobs than the Silicon Valley. The Silver Line will serve this population. There are well over a million residents in Fairfax County and 300,000 - 400,000 in Loudoun County.

This will also encourage the continued development of Reston. Although a bit smaller scale, the Reston Town Center will be comparable to Bethesda or Silver Spring.

Another thing, with the connection to Dulles, is that because of the perimeter rule at Reagan, there are many international and transcontinental flights at Dulles. A one hour ground access time via the Silver Line is a smaller portion of the trip on a eight hour flight to Europe than it is on a regional flight to Akron. Admittedly, the 5A bus, with its dedicated lanes Dulles Toll Road, is still probably quicker.

I don't like sprawl-ville either but the DC region is really a poly-centric urban area with multiple dense walkable areas, including Reston and (in the future) Tysons.

[202_Cyclist]

Regarding the car barn for the streetcars, I agree that opposing this is valid and not NIMBYism. I am a strong supporter of the planned 37-mile streetcar network and I would like to see a route on Wisconsin Avenue as well but DDOT has done a horrible job at every step planning this. It's cliche, but it is really the "ready, fire, aim" approach to building infrastructure.

In other neighborhoods, much of the opposition to streetcars is surely due to NIMBYs and their fear of the denser development this will encourage. The car barn, however, will be bringing an industrial use into what is currently a residential neighborhood.

[202_Cyclist]

On the other hand, Pew Charitable Trust published a report a few years ago showing that the federal gas tax pays for only 51% of the cost of building and maintaining roads, as of 2007.

Capital Bikeshare recoups a surprising amount of operating costs

February 7, 2012
By John Hendel

"Color me impressed. Arlington County's Capital Bikeshare manager Paul DeMaio is reporting some solid numbers about the amount of revenue versus the operating costs in the fledgling bikeshare system that's rolled through our city in the last year and a half. Here's the verdict according to DeMaio:

Capital Bikeshare (Arlington): A ratio of 81% in 2011

Capital Bikeshare (D.C.): A ratio of 120% in 2011

Not too shabby at all. The numbers are slightly less stellar when you consider that the Arlington marketing and management costs of $142,000 aren't included. Add in those costs and you'll see just a 53% cost recovery and a far greater distance from breaking even for Arlington's service. But even 53% seems like a strong amount of recovery so early in the system, especially compared to much of the world's transit.

For context, look at WMATA's proposed 2013 budget, in which revenue will only cover about 55% of WMATA's overall cost. Looking just at the Metrobus numbers, it's even more stark as the ratio is below 30%. WMATA manages to operate thanks to hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies, as with most major transit...."

http://www.tbd.com/blogs/tbd-on-foot...sts-14454.html

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

aquablue:


Providing a connection from DC to Dulles is largely a secondary concern of the Silver Line. This is about the development of the Dulles corridor and the redevelopment of Tysons. I don't know if you have seen the Tysons thread under the City Compilations section but what is planned for Tysons is truly massive. It is the large redevelopment of an edge city in the country. When completed, it is expected to have a larger downtown than either Seattle or Houston: http://greatergreaterwashington.org/...-smart-growth/

Similarly, in the past two decades the job growth in the Dulles corridor and western Fairfax has also been significant. I read somewhere that Northern Virginia has more high tech jobs than the Silicon Valley. The Silver Line will serve this population. There are well over a million residents in Fairfax County and 300,000 - 400,000 in Loudoun County.

This will also encourage the continued development of Reston. Although a bit smaller scale, the Reston Town Center will be comparable to Bethesda or Silver Spring.

Another thing, with the connection to Dulles, is that because of the perimeter rule at Reagan, there are many international and transcontinental flights at Dulles. A one hour ground access time via the Silver Line is a smaller portion of the trip on a eight hour flight to Europe than it is on a regional flight to Akron. Admittedly, the 5A bus, with its dedicated lanes Dulles Toll Road, is still probably quicker.

I don't like sprawl-ville either but the DC region is really a poly-centric urban area with multiple dense walkable areas, including Reston and (in the future) Tysons.

Well, that's not too good for the further development of the district, now, is it? Surely an express was considered? Seem highly ridiculous to me. You say it isn't a concern, but it SHOULD have been. I think this will come back to haunt DC as a major missed opportunity. I hope in the future some kind of express service is added as it takes too long to drive out there from downtown with traffic.

DC is the center of the region not Tysons (not matter how big it gets), and most other airport-city connections around the world serve the city primarily, not the suburban centers. I'm appalled at the lack of vision here. DC is losing out big time, as DCA is highly restricted. Proximity to international flights and a decent service to an international airport like in London, Beijing, Paris, is very important. I suppose this is just another example of ceding growth to the suburbs. This just encourages sprawl. I don't like polycentric areas, unless they are dense like Tokyo. I don't want LA or Houston on Potomac. I really doubt Tysons will ever be a a real pedestrian friendly downtown. Most will probably still drive around there especially with the malls and parking lots to serve them.

[turigamot]

Originally Posted by aquablue

Well, that's not too good for the further development of the district, now, is it? Surely an express was considered? Seem highly ridiculous to me. You say it isn't a concern, but it SHOULD have been. I think this will come back to haunt DC as a major missed opportunity. I hope in the future some kind of express service is added as it takes too long to drive out there from downtown with traffic.

DC is the center of the region not Tysons (not matter how big it gets), and most other airport-city connections around the world serve the city primarily, not the suburban centers. I'm appalled at the lack of vision here. DC is losing out big time, as DCA is highly restricted. Proximity to international flights and a decent service to an international airport like in London, Beijing, Paris, is very important. I suppose this is just another example of ceding growth to the suburbs. This just encourages sprawl. I don't like polycentric areas, unless they are dense like Tokyo. I don't want LA or Houston on Potomac. I really doubt Tysons will ever be a a real pedestrian friendly downtown. Most will probably still drive around there especially with the malls and parking lots to serve them.

Your pessimism is so thick it can be drizzled over pancakes. The DC metro isn't half as bad as Houston now, and it never shall be. A 50 minute metro ride isn't so major a problem as you think, and not so much greater than the travel time in other major cities. The possibility for an express route exists in the future, but for now, the region is trying to get as much bang for its buck as possible.

As for further development of the District: that is already happening, and the streetcar system will also go a long way in spurring it further.

[202_Cyclist]

Regarding the expected trip time to Dulles on the Silver Line, if you're in DC or one of the inner suburbs and traveling on an hour flight to Chicago or Atlanta, a passenger would likely fly out of Reagan anyways instead of Dulles. As I said in the post above, a 50 minute trip on the Silver Line is a less significant part of the total trip time on international flights to Europe or Asia.

As turigamot noted in his post above, development at Tysons and Reston and development in DC isn't zero-sum. The DC region is forecasted to have the fastest job growth in the nation this next decade (http://dc.urbanturf.com/articles/blo...ob_growth/5083) and the DC region is expected to grow by 2M new residents by 2050 (http://www.mwcog.org/uploads/pub-doc...0407104951.pdf). I posted something the DC city compilation thread the other day that there is $23B worth of development either planned or already under construction in the District alone. Three is plenty of growth to go around for all the jurisdictions in the DC region.

Also, as I mentioned yesterday, Fairfax Co. and Loudoun have combined maybe 1.5M people today and both are expected to grow in the coming decades (the western part of the DC region is where the fastest job growth has been in recent decades). This will generate plenty of trips on the Silver Line, alone, irrespective of passengers going to Dulles. There are also many people who commute within the Dulles corridor and from Loudoun and Reston to jobs at Tysons. Similarly, there is a significant number of people who make the reverse commute daily from DC and Arlington to jobs in Tysons.

[mfastx]

Originally Posted by RCDC

mfastx, to save you from further opining based on supposition and what you imagine the area looks like, as best I can tell this is where it's planned to go, and where it could go:

It's an industrial use and would be a sore-spot in a residential area.
If this were worked out at the beginning the concerns could have been addressed then.

I understand that it could be a realistic complaint, but the fact is that a lot of opponents of projects like this complain about stuff like this just to slow the project down and raise the costs.

[babybackribs2314]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

Regarding the expected trip time to Dulles on the Silver Line, if you're in DC or one of the inner suburbs and traveling on an hour flight to Chicago or Atlanta, a passenger would likely fly out of Reagan anyways instead of Dulles. As I said in the post above, a 50 minute trip on the Silver Line is a less significant part of the total trip time on international flights to Europe or Asia.

As turigamot noted in his post above, development at Tysons and Reston and development in DC isn't zero-sum. The DC region is forecasted to have the fastest job growth in the nation this next decade (http://dc.urbanturf.com/articles/blo...ob_growth/5083) and the DC region is expected to grow by 2M new residents by 2050 (http://www.mwcog.org/uploads/pub-doc...0407104951.pdf). I posted something the DC city compilation thread the other day that there is $23B worth of development either planned or already under construction in the District alone. Three is plenty of growth to go around for all the jurisdictions in the DC region.

Also, as I mentioned yesterday, Fairfax Co. and Loudoun have combined maybe 1.5M people today and both are expected to grow in the coming decades (the western part of the DC region is where the fastest job growth has been in recent decades). This will generate plenty of trips on the Silver Line, alone, irrespective of passengers going to Dulles. There are also many people who commute within the Dulles corridor and from Loudoun and Reston to jobs at Tysons. Similarly, there is a significant number of people who make the reverse commute daily from DC and Arlington to jobs in Tysons.

DC's metro grew by roughly 800K this past decade, and while past trends are no guarantee, I think an increase of greater than 3M is likely by 2050 as opposed to only 2. Another thing is that the status of DC-Balti means that most of the growth in Anne Arundel/Howard is coming from DC, yet being counted as part of Baltimore's MSA... eventually both will be absorbed by DC's MSA, but still. I think we'll see the region plateau around the 10-12 million mark (similar to both London and Paris), but the next few decades will feature growth that remains robust. I think it's quite likely DC's greater region passes Chicago in population during the mid 2020s.

For 2050 #'s, I'd guess the CSA would be around 12 million or so. DC will be approaching/past the 1M mark by that point but the biggest jurisdiction will still be Fairfax, which should have 1.5-1.7 million. I could see Baltimore seeing a major recovery as well, especially if high-speed transit links it with D.C. All of the major counties around DC (PG, Mont, Fairfax) will likely have 1M+ though as opposed to only Fairfax as of 2011.

As the urban renaissance seems to be accelerating quite rapidly in the D.C. area, I would not be surprised if inner jurisdictions (D.C., Arlington, and Alexandria) began reporting regular yearly growth of 2-3%. The new boom is massive in scope, and shows no signs of stopping--the momentum is finally to the point where people are excited to trade in 4BR detached homes in PW and Loudon for 2-3 bedroom condos in NoMA, SW, or Rosslyn. Rosslyn is simply booming, and its skyline (if it isn't already) will be the most impressive in Virginia by 2013-2014.

[Cirrus]

Regarding the car barn for the streetcars, I agree that opposing this is valid and not NIMBYism.

Depends on the reason.

Opposing the location of the carbarn because the RFK parking lot makes more sense is not NIMBYism.

Opposing the location of the carbarn because you think it might be noisy *is* NIMBYism.

[Cirrus]

Oh, and if the only important thing about the Silver line were getting to Dulles Airport then we'd build an express BRT that would make the trip faster for 1/10th the cost. We need Metro to urbanize Tysons Corner. It would be an absolutely colosal waste of money to use Metro if the only benefit were Dulles airport.

And Tysons Corner has to be urbanized. To ignore it merely because it happens to be located outside the boundary of the District of Columbia would be the height of irresponsibility.

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Oh, and if the only important thing about the Silver line were getting to Dulles Airport then we'd build an express BRT that would make the trip faster for 1/10th the cost. We need Metro to urbanize Tysons Corner. It would be an absolutely colosal waste of money to use Metro if the only benefit were Dulles airport.

And Tysons Corner has to be urbanized. To ignore it merely because it happens to be located outside the boundary of the District of Columbia would be the height of irresponsibility.

It's a difference of preference. Some people just don't like polycentric cities, including me. I'd prefer if DC was allowed to become denser and higher, but alas, no... Tysons won't have the history of a real city, it will be just some planned new development of average buildings. I doubt any staggeringly beautiful architecture will be built or any impressive tall buildings. I have my doubts on how 'urban' it will be too with all those malls and wide streets.

[Cirrus]

No, it's not a matter a preference. Tysons Corner is already there whether you like it or not, and it will never go away. That ship has sailed. DC is already a polycentric city. Our choice now is whether to have a polycentric city that is sustainable and urban, or a polycentric city that is suburban except for in its relatively tiny core.

And we're not just planning for 20 years out. It takes more than 20 years to build a city, but you have to start doing it right sometime. If we want Tysons to be good in 50 years, or in 100 years, we can't ignore it today.

[turigamot]

Originally Posted by aquablue

It's a difference of preference. Some people just don't like polycentric cities, including me. I'd prefer if DC was allowed to become denser and higher, but alas, no... Tysons won't have the history of a real city, it will be just some planned new development of average buildings. I doubt any staggeringly beautiful architecture will be built or any impressive tall buildings. I have my doubts on how 'urban' it will be too with all those malls and wide streets.

DC will never get higher. But it most certainly will get denser. High doesn't necessarily mean dense. Paris. London. These are not places with highrise apartments or condos. But they are denser than New York. What matters is utilizing the space available instead of letting it become brownfields. We are doing this already. NOMA, SW and SE Waterfronts, L'Enfant Plaza redevelopment plan, St. Elizabeth's redevelopment. DC has a number of places beyond these that can redevelop and densify without the need for skyscrapers and the like.

And if there is any place in the region likely to build properly tall buildings, it is Tyson's Corner. With the metro will come TOD, which will bring many more residents and more office space. And with the changing of the streetscape, and Fairfax's apparent desire to combat sprawl with it, and with the lack of height restrictions that exist in DC and along the flightpaths of Reagan National, I think it not only possible, but *probable* that we will see, in due time, buildings touching the 500 ft. range, and perhaps beyond.

I don't see the DC metro plateauing around 10 -12 million either, the way babybackribs does. The CSA is already at 9 million. DC and Baltimore *will* coalesce, becoming one single MSA in due time, and both areas will see great population gains, both because this is where the jobs are, and the younger generation wants urbanity. So it will be the entire region, from Prince William to Baltimore, that will have to densify.

And get this: a combined Washington-Baltimore MSA would still be only a little over 8000 square miles. Which is still less than quite a few US metros with half that population.

[OhioGuy]

Originally Posted by turigamot

So it will be the entire region, from Prince William to Baltimore, that will have to densify.

It's too bad MARC continues to be a weekday-only service. Maybe if it had service levels as good as Metra in Chicago, there'd be more demand for denser apartments, condos, shops & restaurants around the rail stations similar to numerous suburban rail locations in Chicagoland. It would be good to have that kind of development occurring in the area between DC & Baltimore if as expected the two eventually become one in future decades.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by OhioGuy

It's too bad MARC continues to be a weekday-only service. Maybe if it had service levels as good as Metra in Chicago, there'd be more demand for denser apartments, condos, shops & restaurants around the rail stations similar to numerous suburban rail locations in Chicagoland. It would be good to have that kind of development occurring in the area between DC & Baltimore if as expected the two eventually become one in future decades.

I think it's worth noting that the lifestyle of these places does not revolve around transit usage. Some of the TOD residents might be using the train to commute, but they're certainly not using it for errands, socialization, or recreation, and they're certainly not taking the bus anywhere.

Living in these areas is really only a half-step toward urbanity, because the residents who live here still plan most of their life around the car, and very few suburban downtowns can be lived-in (with the full spectrum of businesses to serve daily needs). Almost always, the downtown contains a few condo buildings, plus a few bars and restaurants and a selection of boutique shopping. No grocery stores, no pharmacies, etc. Des Plaines is probably the only "complete" suburban downtown that has the full gamut of stores and services, but it's a pretty bleak experience for pedestrians.

[turigamot]

Originally Posted by OhioGuy

It's too bad MARC continues to be a weekday-only service. Maybe if it had service levels as good as Metra in Chicago, there'd be more demand for denser apartments, condos, shops & restaurants around the rail stations similar to numerous suburban rail locations in Chicagoland. It would be good to have that kind of development occurring in the area between DC & Baltimore if as expected the two eventually become one in future decades.

Most definitely, VRE and MARC both need to improve the regularity of their service.

It is a shame MARC and VRE have to share with CSX, who only do so grudgingly.

[babybackribs2314]

These notions that D.C. needs to increase the height limit are outrageous. The District is so vibrant because development has been spread out due to the height limit (imo), and raising this would make development more subject to overbuilding. At the moment, huge swaths of the District are being rapidly transformed, and that's thanks in part to the height limit (also giving the District one of the most walkable/urban built environments in the U.S.).

I think it's likely the District achieves an average population density of ~15,000/mile by mid-century. The current residential construction is literally mind-boggling. One thing I would like to see in addition would be a Tysons population of 150k by 2050, as I think the current goals aren't terribly ambitious... Fairfax is growing by 100k/decade, Tysons should be able to harness a very large proportion..

[aquablue]

Originally Posted by babybackribs2314

These notions that D.C. needs to increase the height limit are outrageous. The District is so vibrant because development has been spread out due to the height limit (imo), and raising this would make development more subject to overbuilding. At the moment, huge swaths of the District are being rapidly transformed, and that's thanks in part to the height limit (also giving the District one of the most walkable/urban built environments in the U.S.).

I think it's likely the District achieves an average population density of ~15,000/mile by mid-century. The current residential construction is literally mind-boggling. One thing I would like to see in addition would be a Tysons population of 150k by 2050, as I think the current goals aren't terribly ambitious... Fairfax is growing by 100k/decade, Tysons should be able to harness a very large proportion..

You may think DC is vibrant, but downtown DC is far from it. If you have been to europe you will that It is rather dead actually, sorry to be blunt. Where are the busy shopping streets? Very few. Where are the world class entertainment areas? The CBD is a bore, sorry to say, an office ghetto. It may be spread out, but that just means that the architecture is banal and conservative groundscrapers. It will continue to be dead because there are very few areas where retail and entertainment locations can thrive because the city is dominated by these unfriendly groundscraper blocks. High rises are needed to allow more space for ground floor retail and entertainment establishments, while still keeping office/hotel space.

There is absolutely no need for me to go downtown for pleasure because I feel none there. Haven't you been abroad? Even a small european city like Dublin is far more vibrant.

[202_Cyclist]

aquablue:

You may think DC is vibrant, but downtown DC is far from it. If you have been to europe you will that It is rather dead actually, sorry to be blunt. Where are the busy shopping streets? Very few. Where are the world class entertainment areas? The CBD is a bore, sorry to say, an office ghetto. It may be spread out, but that just means that the architecture is banal and conservative groundscrapers.

This discussion is getting a bit off topic for the transportation thread but I agree with this post. There are neighborhoods (U Street/14th Street, Dupont, Georgetown, H Street, Eastern Market/Barrack's Row) that are vibrant but much of downtown DC is dead a lot of the time.

[babybackribs2314]

Originally Posted by aquablue

You may think DC is vibrant, but downtown DC is far from it. If you have been to europe you will that It is rather dead actually, sorry to be blunt. Where are the busy shopping streets? Very few. Where are the world class entertainment areas? The CBD is a bore, sorry to say, an office ghetto. It may be spread out, but that just means that the architecture is banal and conservative groundscrapers. It will continue to be dead because there are very few areas where retail and entertainment locations can thrive because the city is dominated by these unfriendly groundscraper blocks. High rises are needed to allow more space for ground floor retail and entertainment establishments, while still keeping office/hotel space.

There is absolutely no need for me to go downtown for pleasure because I feel none there. Haven't you been abroad? Even a small european city like Dublin is far more vibrant.

LOL I've lived in Europe and Australia and have travelled extensively all over, probably more than you, and there is no need for your condescending attitude.

The office core may be sterile but much of DC is vibrant. CityCenter will do well to ameliorate the lack of retail/entertainment, as will the redevelopment of SW and NoMA (effectively extending downtown). You should educate yourself on what's going on in D.C. before posting, I think.