Should Canada Be Preparing for a Destabilized USA?

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Hateful remarks versus no freedom good to see you know where to draw the line.

I've been treated badly by the customs when going to the U.S. and also by the U.S. border patrol at their inland checkpoints in Arizona. And that was when Obama was president. I've been to Cuba three times and each time I was treated well and only asked which resort I was going to and not given attitude.

With Trump now in power, I feel that the arrogance and rudeness is really being encouraged.

And just for the record, I have vacationed in both Mexico and Jamaica in the last few years. So maybe mention something about the government and human rights in those two countries?!?

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Well obviously as a Czech-Canadian you'd understand more than me. I'm aware of the conspiracy theories involving the Velvet Revolution (Cibulka's musings on the topic are certainly intruging) but it just seems too.. perfect.

Its not a conspiracy theory, it is literally how it happened. They met, along with USSR advisers, and they allowed the government to fall. The leadership benefited greatly and stayed either in power or got rich. Nothing spontaneous happened in 1989. The 90's were then followed by massive asset striping, which was absolutely supported by the west. Things are now ok again and luckily the country had a good base to work with to begin catching back up. Like I said historically it was one of the most industrialized parts of the world, pre ww2, and until 1989 continued to be the most industrialized part of the eastern block. Today heavy industry and manufacturing is still the core of the economy, not agriculture, resources or tourism. That's a good thing. The point though was there was no magic there and the west absolutely did Czechoslovakia no favors. The west allowed and partook in plundering the place in the 90's.

[Acajack]

Stryker, I just wanted to say that I am so glad that you are here.

You've confronted so many of people's assumed truths. Including some of mine.

Different opinions are the very raison d'être of a discussion forum like this, which shouldn't be (as some would like) a circle-jerk of like-minded people all agreeing that Trump is the anti-christ or something to that effect..

[HomeInMyShoes]

^What?!? The Internet isn't my own personal echo chamber?!?! Well said Acajack.

I was turned back from the border when I was on a work VISA as well. And I'm a wasp! Shocking. Immigration works to ensure that people are working in stated professions as well. My immigration officer that day didn't think the company I worked for did business consulting (despite the fact that the company was the number two business consulting firm in the US.) Immigration official is not an easy task and I think we need to be cognizant that the US has a lot of problems when it comes to immigration. People want to be there. They want to flee bad working conditions, bad prospects. They want to follow their family, they want to escape political torture. The diversity of the cases theses people work with are broad and the decisions they make affect lives. I'd put it right near the top of most thankless jobs category. While I was pissed off that day that my company would have to send me another employment letter to prove that I had a job in the appropriate category in the US and I'd have to rebook flights and try to get to work the next day, I have come to realize how difficult their jobs are. Even when the case might not be one of national security.

[Antigonish]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Its not a conspiracy theory, it is literally how it happened. They met, along with USSR advisers, and they allowed the government to fall. The leadership benefited greatly and stayed either in power or got rich. Nothing spontaneous happened in 1989. The 90's were then followed by massive asset striping, which was absolutely supported by the west. Things are now ok again and luckily the country had a good base to work with to begin catching back up. Like I said historically it was one of the most industrialized parts of the world, pre ww2, and until 1989 continued to be the most industrialized part of the eastern block. Today heavy industry and manufacturing is still the core of the economy, not agriculture, resources or tourism. That's a good thing. The point though was there was no magic there and the west absolutely did Czechoslovakia no favors. The west allowed and partook in plundering the place in the 90's.

Sounds a lot like Yugoslavia prior to the civil war, and how the EU countries sat back an allowed it to happen. I never made the connection until recently. IIRC, Yugoslavia was the third largest manufacturing economy in all of Europe, and after the fall of the Iron Curtain, would have directly rivaled Germany in manufacturing production and wealth. What better way to have an economic rival fall off then sit back and let a civil war and ethnic cleansing take place for a little while to settle the score.

Takes off tinfoil hat.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Stryker, I just wanted to say that I am so glad that you are here.

You've confronted so many of people's assumed truths. Including some of mine.

Different opinions are the very raison d'être of a discussion forum like this, which shouldn't be (as some would like) a circle-jerk of like-minded people all agreeing that Trump is the anti-christ or something to that effect..

Thanks for that acknowledgement.

The fact is I take no shame in enjoying the exploring of an argument.

However I don't troll to get a simple win. Which is something I detest.

I'm a firm believer in intellectual challenge.

People confuse this desire with the idea that I think I'm always right. I play a hard game but Nothing delights me more then when someone proves me wrong with a hard hitting fact of reality.

To loose an argument is to have your perception of reality enhanced.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by Stryker

So your establishing an argument purely out of self interest??

I think most people boycotting travel to the USA are doing it for precisely this reason, particularly non-white or non-Christian people, who feel their experience at the US border is more likely to be a nightmare than at Cuban customs.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

I think most people boycotting travel to the USA are doing it for precisely this reason, particularly non-white or non-Christian people, who feel their experience at the US border is more likely to be a nightmare.

Perfectly valid, I myself want my parents no where near the states right now. (they are in florida april and november)

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

than at Cuban customs.

This is the crazy part, Cuba's safe because of resorts etc.

Going through customs is one small part of that picture.

[ue]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

I think most people boycotting travel to the USA are doing it for precisely this reason, particularly non-white or non-Christian people, who feel their experience at the US border is more likely to be a nightmare than at Cuban customs.

I haven't decided to outright "boycott" traveling to the US, and if a good opportunity came along, and things don't get worse, I'd still visit, but with no travel plans to the US pre-Trump, I do find my interest in visiting the country severely diminished. It's funny Cuba was brought up, because it's one of the places I was considering traveling to.

I say this as a white person, who would be less likely to face scrutiny at the border, but even still, based on how the country is treating others (and even some white people), I don't feel ok with supporting that. It's similar to how I am fascinated by Russia but I would never visit there while they are still such an LGBT-hostile environment. A place like Cuba, or other developed countries, aren't so hostile to visitors or migrants, at least not officially. Maybe Japan? But that's about it.

What the other person said about holding the US, as a robust democracy, to a higher standard, also applies in my growing disinterest in the US.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by ue

I say this as a white person, who would be less likely to face scrutiny at the border, but even still, based on how the country is treating others (and even some white people), I don't feel ok with supporting that.

This is where your mental blind spot makes zero sense.

Us visiting Cuba directly supports a dictatorship.

A dictatorship that is used a working model of authoritarian communism.

[Aylmer]

For years, I've been avoiding travel through the USA just to avoid the security annoyance. If I have to pay $100 more for a transatlantic flight which avoids JFK, I'll do it.

But I have to admit, that the border confusion has put an additional chill on any plans to transit through or even visit. It's not that I think that I'd necessarily get into trouble myself, but I feel as if the situation could change at any moment and I could be stuck waiting in line for hours as things are getting figured out. And honestly, I'd rather just avoid that situation. If I have some really compelling reason to go to the USA (like an important family or work event), I'd likely still go, but for anything less urgent (vacation, shopping, etc.), I would avoid it.

[esquire]

I have zero disinclination to visit the US either for vacation or transiting through, but then, I don't belong in any of the subsets of people likely to be inconvenienced by any of the shenanigans down there. I have to admit I'd probably look at it a bit differently if I were brown skinned, Muslim, or part of some other such group they're paying closer attention to. For now, the exchange rate is king when it comes to deciding how often I'll be visiting the US.

As for the whole Cuba thing, I'm with Stryker... I don't understand how for a minute anyone could say that they will avoid the US because of Trump and then turn around and go to Cuba, a country with a far worse human rights record. It's hypocritical through and through... it's like saying that you refuse to pay a premium unless a country measures up to rigorous human rights standards, buuuuut if you can get a cheap all inclusive package then the malfeasance of dictators and despots will be gladly overlooked.

By any objective standard Cuba is lousy when it comes to human rights, and far worse than anything we've seen coming out of the US.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ne...s-at-a-glance/

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by esquire

I have zero disinclination to visit the US either for vacation or transiting through, but then, I don't belong in any of the subsets of people likely to be inconvenienced by any of the shenanigans down there. I have to admit I'd probably look at it a bit differently if I were brown skinned, Muslim, or part of some other such group they're paying closer attention to. For now, the exchange rate is king when it comes to deciding how often I'll be visiting the US.

I don't think it's a great place to go even if your white middle class vacationers in florida. America is transitioning its a wild time that doesn't mean this transition isn't needed.

Originally Posted by esquire

As for the whole Cuba thing, I'm with Stryker... I don't understand how for a minute anyone could say that they will avoid the US because of Trump and then turn around and go to Cuba, a country with a far worse human rights record. It's hypocritical through and through... it's like saying that you refuse to pay a premium unless a country measures up to rigorous human rights standards, buuuuut if you can get a cheap all inclusive package then the malfeasance of dictators and despots will be gladly overlooked.

Lets be clear on this one too.

Cuba is not haiti, it belongs squarely in midlevel development areas like poland.

If cuban reformed and became democractic you be certain cuba would be the fastest growing economy in the world.

However it's role in the world is as the legitimate example of communism.

By supporting this place with your money(which is perfectly fine by me) you don't have a leg to walk on regarding trump.

The whole narrative smacks of people who simply don't know much about the world.

[Acajack]

Vacationing in Cuba makes sense from a moral logic standpoint in Canada simply because we're used to it making sense from a moral logic standpoint.

That's it.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Vacationing in Cuba makes sense from a moral logic standpoint in Canada simply because we're used to it making sense from a moral logic standpoint.

That's it.

Precisely, and exposing Cubans to differing perspectives may in time erode that, even if that isn't my goal in visiting. The US is just fucked.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ue

Precisely, and exposing Cubans to differing perspectives may in time erode that, even if that isn't my goal in visiting. .

I am not sure that Cuba is being changed that much by the all-inclusive tourist crowd. (At least not for the better.)

Canadians and also Europeans have been going there for decades. You'd think they would have gotten the hint and thrown out the Castros by now.

This is not a slag on you personally, but a lot of the justifications given by Canadians for visiting Cuba (in spite of the human rights abuses) are just about giving themselves a good conscience, more than anything else.

[niwell]

One of my coworkers recently got back from several months actually living in Cuba - well outside the tourist areas (she was there for school). She was able to pull this off as a Spanish speaker who has lived most of her life in Mexico. It sounds like an interesting place that in some ways is more developed than you'd think but in others not even close.

For instance health care is readily available for virtually the entire populace. But things like toiletries and even basic food items can be very hard to get. It sounded like you go to the grocery store and essentially what you happen to see on that day is what you get. Lineups are an issue when something sought after is in stock. This was in an inner-suburb of Havana. And contrasted to my coworkers experiences in Mexico where like most developing nations you can get literally exactly the same stuff as in Canada providing you have the money to pay for it.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by niwell

One of my coworkers recently got back from several months actually living in Cuba - well outside the tourist areas (she was there for school). She was able to pull this off as a Spanish speaker who has lived most of her life in Mexico. It sounds like an interesting place that in some ways is more developed than you'd think but in others not even close.

For instance health care is readily available for virtually the entire populace. But things like toiletries and even basic food items can be very hard to get. It sounded like you go to the grocery store and essentially what you happen to see on that day is what you get. Lineups are an issue when something sought after is in stock. This was in an inner-suburb of Havana. And contrasted to my coworkers experiences in Mexico where like most developing nations you can get literally exactly the same stuff as in Canada providing you have the money to pay for it.

This isn't because cuba is disadvantaged.

This is because cuba chooses to be a highly functional communist state.

Cuba could transition into riveria of NA if it wanted to. However anyone with non communist leanings has fled to Miami.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not sure that Cuba is being changed that much by the all-inclusive tourist crowd. (At least not for the better.)

Canadians and also Europeans have been going there for decades. You'd think they would have gotten the hint and thrown out the Castros by now.

This is not a slag on you personally, but a lot of the justifications given by Canadians for visiting Cuba (in spite of the human rights abuses) are just about giving themselves a good conscience, more than anything else.

True, but I think Canadian and European tourism in Cuba has been more passive and penned into resort areas, far from the realities of Cuba. It took some interest by the Americans to set up ties again for talks of change to come to the fore. I think as places like Havana and Santiago become more popular with tourism (especially Santiago and cities beyond the capital) things may change, but who knows. Unlike the Dominican or Jamaica, at least Cuban cities do have some interest for tourists and expats, which allow for more intermingling. I'm basically conjecturing now, especially because who knows what Trump will do with what Obama set forth.

I say all this as someone who'd rather vacation in Havana than Varadero or Cayo Coco

[WhipperSnapper]

There's a number of communist states that would disprove your theory. The US embargo had a much greater effect on certain items being hard to come by. Merchandise more associated to Europe can be easily afforded by all Cubans.