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  #2821  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2019, 12:02 AM
aquablue aquablue is offline
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Originally Posted by plutonicpanda View Post
France also has almost 70 million people or so in an area roughly the size of Texas.
It still is only 310 vs 255/sq mile (california).

On another note:

Shame they went with non-grade separation from San Francisca to San Jose, pretty disappointing. I have no seen a high speed rail system anywhere where they have road barriers, but they could exist somewhere in the world. The cost of a tunnel would have been too much, understandable. I would have preferred them take a more direct route to LA, but politics I suppose made it so. What can you do.

Last edited by aquablue; Aug 16, 2019 at 1:05 AM.
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  #2822  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2019, 2:00 AM
k1052 k1052 is offline
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
It still is only 310 vs 255/sq mile (california).

On another note:

Shame they went with non-grade separation from San Francisca to San Jose, pretty disappointing. I have no seen a high speed rail system anywhere where they have road barriers, but they could exist somewhere in the world. The cost of a tunnel would have been too much, understandable. I would have preferred them take a more direct route to LA, but politics I suppose made it so. What can you do.
Caltrain corridor remaining grade separation costs are in the neighborhood of $10B. Nobody has interest in spending that kind of money yet.
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  #2823  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2019, 2:58 AM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
It still is only 310 vs 255/sq mile (california).
I have no seen a high speed rail system anywhere where they have road barriers, but they could exist somewhere in the world.
Ahem...a rural grade crossing on a TGV line in France:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12NugxhmiEE


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  #2824  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2019, 7:14 PM
plutonicpanda plutonicpanda is offline
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
Why compare W. Europe to USA? You should be comparing certain areas/states of the USA to specific countries in Europe, that's a more fair comparison. USA will never be like Europe, it's HSR routes will be probably limited to 3 or 4 places and that's it. The overall demand in Europe will always be far greater for rail because of what you said (population), but that doesn't mean that rail can't work in specific places in America and run profitably .
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
It still is only 310 vs 255/sq mile (california).

On another note:

Shame they went with non-grade separation from San Francisca to San Jose, pretty disappointing. I have no seen a high speed rail system anywhere where they have road barriers, but they could exist somewhere in the world. The cost of a tunnel would have been too much, understandable. I would have preferred them take a more direct route to LA, but politics I suppose made it so. What can you do.
Complains about comparing Europe to USA then proceeds to compare Europe to the USA. My point of my post is that they are NOT comparable! I made a comparison to show how ridiculous it is. Furthermore, people per square mile tells nothing. Once again, we are talking about a country of 70 million people in an area the size of Texas. Compare that to the US which is more fair. You are comparing a country to a state. I am stating that is NOT!!! a valid comparison. I don't know how to make myself more clear.

I am not taking a stance for or against HSR with that statement. I support HSR in general. But simply saying France approved x amount of HSR lines and why can't we doesn't make much of a case-- especially all things considered.
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  #2825  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2019, 7:15 PM
plutonicpanda plutonicpanda is offline
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Originally Posted by k1052 View Post
Caltrain corridor remaining grade separation costs are in the neighborhood of $10B. Nobody has interest in spending that kind of money yet.
I think we should. All train crossings should be grade separated, IMO.
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  #2826  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2019, 9:17 PM
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The still in progress lowering of ambition on the Peninsula is very discouraging. The authority should have steamrolled the opposition and pursued the initial plan of a fully grade separated four-track embankment or cut, that is how you build true hsr. That is what we deserved. What is being pursued now may very well haunt high speed rail AND Caltrain for 50 years.
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  #2827  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2019, 10:06 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
The still in progress lowering of ambition on the Peninsula is very discouraging. The authority should have steamrolled the opposition and pursued the initial plan of a fully grade separated four-track embankment or cut, that is how you build true hsr. That is what we deserved. What is being pursued now may very well haunt high speed rail AND Caltrain for 50 years.

Tens of billions to save 20 minutes at most.
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  #2828  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2019, 12:24 AM
plutonicpanda plutonicpanda is offline
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Tens of billions to save 20 minutes at most.
20 minutes is a big deal especially when you have transfers. 20 minutes a week adds up to 100 a work week and that is just one way. Even if it were just 5-10 minutes that still is a lot of time. Over a year it can add up to hours and hours and if you factor transfers into that... forget about it.
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  #2829  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2019, 7:02 AM
aquablue aquablue is offline
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Originally Posted by plutonicpanda View Post
Complains about comparing Europe to USA then proceeds to compare Europe to the USA. My point of my post is that they are NOT comparable! I made a comparison to show how ridiculous it is. Furthermore, people per square mile tells nothing. Once again, we are talking about a country of 70 million people in an area the size of Texas. Compare that to the US which is more fair. You are comparing a country to a state. I am stating that is NOT!!! a valid comparison. I don't know how to make myself more clear.

I am not taking a stance for or against HSR with that statement. I support HSR in general. But simply saying France approved x amount of HSR lines and why can't we doesn't make much of a case-- especially all things considered.
What are you talking about. I compared France to Cali, not Europe to USA. It's perfectly reasonable comparison when we are talking about building a high speed railway line. I throw out all the HSR-poor trash areas in the country -- i.e, most of it (flyover country, and all that), and focus on the crème de la crème where Rail works --> the dense coasts. Very comparable to European countries in major qualities. Oh, and US states are compared with European countries all the time in many areas if you weren't aware...."not a valid comparison" smh, eh, no.

You can compare Cali with France or Spain, no problem. Both are political entities, massive economic powers, of similar size and density, population and both have HSR potential. Nothing wrong with the comparison. Trying to compare France to the USA, now that's ridiculous when you are trying to assess the potential for HSR. Obviously in that case the US looks terrible and only suitable for aircraft. Thats what the oil industry pandering right wing though would like to promote, the idea that the US is too low-density for HSR to be profitable by always making these ridiculous country-country comparisons. It's all very convenient when the average joe schmoe reads that USA is basically too big and spread out to have HSR. It fits their narrative and has the required effect. Of course they are clueless and have no real understanding that there are specific regions that could do HSR very well.

Again, why hasn't California or the NEC built even one line yet, when places that have similar characteristics in economy or density like Spain, Netherlands, Korea and, etc are light years ahead of the only Superpower in the world, building HSR by the bucket loads and embracing the mode (since it's so much more comfortable than driving or flying)? It's just because the oil addicted suburban right wing have hoodwinked the country into thinking European trains are boondoggles, or even, socialist and only cars and planes (oil modes) are the American way. Viva the Highway, isn't driving for hours behind some truck fun, woo! They have accomplished their mission in making sure Americans didn't know what they were missing.

Density tells nothing? Ok, show me where on earth a HSR has been built in a low density political entity? If density tells nothing like you say... Density is very important. Take a transportation geography class.

Last edited by aquablue; Aug 18, 2019 at 9:16 AM.
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  #2830  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2019, 7:04 AM
aquablue aquablue is offline
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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
The still in progress lowering of ambition on the Peninsula is very discouraging. The authority should have steamrolled the opposition and pursued the initial plan of a fully grade separated four-track embankment or cut, that is how you build true hsr. That is what we deserved. What is being pursued now may very well haunt high speed rail AND Caltrain for 50 years.
LOL! You can't steamroll anything now a days, especially not a path of GREEN. Those wealthy NIMBY's rule the roost, this isn't China. We don't have the national's people congress giving orders here -- > "build 100 miles of grade separated caltran track by 12th December or else..."

Also, face it dude, you're a NIMBY if you had a house there. Say goodbye to your property prices when a 125 mph ROARING train passes by with an ever so cute little horn (hah). That's no sweet sound, mind. Fancy having to keep your windows closed all day? Fancy worrying that your yard time is going to suck?

I just love adorable YIMBY idealists spouting off when other people's house values are going to hell and little cute kiddies are being harmed by noise pollution. I'd like to see how they react when their own houses are being affected.. I doubt it would be pretty. 1/3 of your kids inheritance just .. poof!


If bumbling California ever builds anything here, they will surely live to regret their decision I suppose. But the decision was inevitable. The rich rule America, and if that was a poor neighborhood and if that were a BLACK neighborhood, there would be no f##'in around, that thing would be done done done in no time flat if the cash was there.. It's a kleptocracy fellows, a racist kleptocracy. The rich rule, the poor (and minorities) drool.

Last edited by aquablue; Aug 18, 2019 at 10:06 AM.
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  #2831  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2019, 8:06 AM
aquablue aquablue is offline
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Ahem...a rural grade crossing on a TGV line in France:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12NugxhmiEE


Aw, you found one place out of what, thousands of miles? Booyah! But those are very rare sadly and don't paint the true picture of French or European railways. Sorry to shatter your narrative

FYI! I never saw one on my way from Paris to Marseilles - Nice. Neither on my way from Rome to beautiful old Firenze (a town that is far above anything I've seen on the North American Continent). Neither on my way from Paris to London via Lille.

Let's cut to the meat here fellows: American railways are donkey and cart compared to European ones, with their willingness to invest in the best mode of travel rather than oil-only modes. European cultural superiority has reared its ugly head and the jokes on us.

Of course we know most of the US couldn't profitably do HSR, but in those places that could, they dropped the ball and went for the oil polluting, CO2 belching, NOx spewing, Cock Brothers special. A paltry effort was put into trains. The adorable Acela, that's runs on Victorian tracks and is built like a panzer on wheels. The horrible, bumpy Brightline which toots it's horn every 20 seconds, enough to give you hearing problems.
I could go on.

They chose the same bad decision that that old bag Maggy Thatcher did, with her train phobia. Britain didn't bother building any LGV's, but that doesn't mean they were right! Should have followed the sensible frenchies instead. Better food, better iron horses.

Now, for guns. Europe does that better too. They have laws where you can't carry a machine gun in your pants into a Walmart, smh. Oh, Europeans are still free, just as free as Americans btw.

Last edited by aquablue; Aug 18, 2019 at 10:11 AM.
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  #2832  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2019, 8:09 AM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by plutonicpanda View Post
Even if it were just 5-10 minutes that still is a lot of time. Over a year it can add up to hours and hours and if you factor transfers into that... forget about it.
I'd like for the CAHSR haters to state what, exactly, they demand. Because somehow an express run from LA to SF that is 5-10 minutes slower than the currently unknown transit time is a huge problem.

Where speed really matters isn't so much the transit time as the fact that at some point higher speed enables the same train and crew to make more trips on a shift. Ridership experiences a boost when service is more frequent throughout the day and when there is an earlier first train and a later final train, even if those trains appear to be "mostly empty".

If the crew is paid at a constant hourly or per-day rate, then a railroad gets more trips out of the crew for the same dollar amount. The wear to a trainset is a bit more complicated -- how much more wear does a HSR trainset experience on a run that averages 170mph versus 190mph?
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  #2833  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2019, 8:16 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
LOL! You can't steamroll anything now a days, especially not a path of GREEN. Those wealthy NIMBY's rule the roost, this isn't China. We don't have the national's people congress giving orders here -- > "build 100 miles of grade separated caltran track by 12th December or else..."

Also, face it dude, you're a NIMBY if you had a house there. Say goodbye to your property prices when a 125 mph ROARING train passes by with an ever so cute little horn (hah). That's no sweet sound, mind. Fancy having to keep your windows closed all day? Fancy worrying that your yard time is going to suck?

I just love adorable YIMBY idealists spouting off when other people's house values are going to hell and little cute kiddies are being harmed by noise pollution. I'd like to see how they react when their own houses are being affected.. I doubt it would be pretty. 1/3 of your kids inheritance just .. poof!


If bumbling California ever builds anything here, they will surely live to regret their decision I suppose. But the decision was inevitable. The rich rule America, and if that was a poor neighborhood and if that were a BLACK neighborhood, there would be no f##'in around, that thing would be done done done in no time flat if the cash was there.. It's a kleptocracy fellows, a racist kleptocracy. The rich rule, the poor (and minorities) drool.
Just curious, you think a poor white neighborhood would have a vastly higher chance of stopping something like this than a poor black neighborhood? If so, why?


Also, you seem off the hinges. Do you even know what a machine gun is? It's a fully automatic gun. Those aren't allowed to be carried openly or concealed anywhere in America. I think you *think* you know a lot more than you actually know.
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  #2834  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2019, 8:22 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
I'd like for the CAHSR haters to state what, exactly, they demand. Because somehow an express run from LA to SF that is 5-10 minutes slower than the currently unknown transit time is a huge problem.

Where speed really matters isn't so much the transit time as the fact that at some point higher speed enables the same train and crew to make more trips on a shift. Ridership experiences a boost when service is more frequent throughout the day and when there is an earlier first train and a later final train, even if those trains appear to be "mostly empty".

If the crew is paid at a constant hourly or per-day rate, then a railroad gets more trips out of the crew for the same dollar amount. The wear to a trainset is a bit more complicated -- how much more wear does a HSR trainset experience on a run that averages 170mph versus 190mph?
I guess I would fall into that catagory.

I want this to not double in price from the 2008 estimates.

I don't want the state to use tax dollars for a project that will impact very little people, and people that most likely have money compared to the average resident.

That's pretty much it. I don't know the exacts on time tables or anything, I am sure it could be better or worse, whatever. My main issue is with the insane cost increases and the fact that the taxpayers are paying for a project most will never use, most can't afford, and otherwise will not impact them in anyway(it won't take cars off the road, only take seats away from planes).
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  #2835  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2019, 3:25 PM
plutonicpanda plutonicpanda is offline
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
What are you talking about. I compared France to Cali, not Europe to USA. It's perfectly reasonable comparison when we are talking about building a high speed railway line. I throw out all the HSR-poor trash areas in the country -- i.e, most of it (flyover country, and all that), and focus on the crème de la crème where Rail works --> the dense coasts. Very comparable to European countries in major qualities. Oh, and US states are compared with European countries all the time in many areas if you weren't aware...."not a valid comparison" smh, eh, no.

You can compare Cali with France or Spain, no problem. Both are political entities, massive economic powers, of similar size and density, population and both have HSR potential. Nothing wrong with the comparison. Trying to compare France to the USA, now that's ridiculous when you are trying to assess the potential for HSR. Obviously in that case the US looks terrible and only suitable for aircraft. Thats what the oil industry pandering right wing though would like to promote, the idea that the US is too low-density for HSR to be profitable by always making these ridiculous country-country comparisons. It's all very convenient when the average joe schmoe reads that USA is basically too big and spread out to have HSR. It fits their narrative and has the required effect. Of course they are clueless and have no real understanding that there are specific regions that could do HSR very well.

Again, why hasn't California or the NEC built even one line yet, when places that have similar characteristics in economy or density like Spain, Netherlands, Korea and, etc are light years ahead of the only Superpower in the world, building HSR by the bucket loads and embracing the mode (since it's so much more comfortable than driving or flying)? It's just because the oil addicted suburban right wing have hoodwinked the country into thinking European trains are boondoggles, or even, socialist and only cars and planes (oil modes) are the American way. Viva the Highway, isn't driving for hours behind some truck fun, woo! They have accomplished their mission in making sure Americans didn't know what they were missing.

Density tells nothing? Ok, show me where on earth a HSR has been built in a low density political entity? If density tells nothing like you say... Density is very important. Take a transportation geography class.
Perhaps I should have worded my post better. People per square mile doesn't tell the whole story, but you are correct about density being meaningful. You are still being quite disingenuous about conveniently brushing off France being a country and not a state part of a country(two different political types) and having nearly twice as many people as the most populated state in an area much smaller than the U.S.

You compare countries to countries, not states. And quite with the hyperbole. I've said many times I support HSR in the USA. Many users on this forum seem to read only what they want to see and don't thoroughly read the entire post.
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  #2836  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2019, 5:37 PM
plutonicpanda plutonicpanda is offline
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God willing, California will be a country in our lifetimes and you can be ok with the comparison.
I wouldn't hold my breath. I'm well aware of the GDP comparisons. Simply saying they have x amount of people per square mile doesn't tell the whole story when their cities are much more dense and the people in that same land area averaged out tells little of the whole story. It is a cheap point and not one worth taken seriously in a real debate about making the case for HSR here.

Regardless of agreeing with whether countries or states should be compared, even if France were a state in a country like that of the U.S. it still would hardly be an apples to apples comparison. Comparing France to California is just stupid no matter which way you put it.
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  #2837  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 2:19 AM
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Minato Ku Minato Ku is offline
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Ahem...a rural grade crossing on a TGV line in France:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12NugxhmiEE


Except that no.
It's not a high speed line but a regular speed line.
TGV trains can run on regular lines (to reach many destinations outside the high speed lines), they are not restricted to high speed tracks unlike the Japanese Shinkansen.

Infact if TGV trains were restricted to high speed tracks, they could not begin their journey in Central Paris railway terminals (they are not on high-speed tracks, the high speed lines begin about a dozen of miles away, except for Montparnasse).

It's true to say that there are no crossing on high speed lines.
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  #2838  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 2:42 AM
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  #2839  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 1:14 PM
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There are crossings in the Midwest and Rural Northeast that are 110mph but these are through small towns and back country roads. Even the ones that are 125mph in the UK are in Rural areas. The fastest built up speeds are usually capped at 60-80mph.
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  #2840  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2019, 6:57 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by Minato Ku View Post
TGV trains can run on regular lines (to reach many destinations outside the high speed lines)
I was waiting for someone to notice the lack of barrier fencing and the visibly slower speed in the video.

Somehow, to all of the CAHSR haters, the TGV is "real" HSR, despite its many slow sections, grade crossings, and its slow approach to Paris, but CAHSR won't be "real" HSR despite its full grade separation and relatively speedy 110mph approaches to LA and SF. CAHSR is also paying for dozens of freight rail grade separations, so there are significant safety and speed advantages for freight.

If any area of CAHSR could get away with a few grade crossings, it would be the approach to Sacramento. Each and every railroad grade crossing is horrifically expensive, so if things get tight for Phase 2, we might see a compromise or two in that area.
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