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  #2001  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 4:23 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
^ I take your point, but people are still allowed to make the request and have it treated with due regard for their rights. You can't just dismiss it out of hand and say "well, according to this test you took and passed 20 years ago, you can't actually ask for this"
Of course, they could still opt for the legal route if they so desire. I think the point is more that something like the test might put a bit of a "chill" on stuff like this.

I don't think it's a silver bullet that will make all of them go away.

But even talking about Bill 21 prior to its adoption (and its failed predecessors, if you can call them that) has already put a bit of a chill on these things, it seems to me.
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  #2002  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 5:03 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Thought experiment: you're tasked with controlling who gets aboard on the basis of their expensive, nontransferable, unlimited access cards. How many of the people below would you let through and which ones?

As an aside, photo ID transit passes are just a terrible idea in general (and not for reasons of religious accommodation).
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  #2003  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 6:04 PM
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I'm curious how Bill 21 works in real life. Will some public servant lose their job if they wear a head scarf to work? And who gets to define what head covering constitutes religious garb? Someone who just ties a bandana on their head and comes into work, could they get terminated for that or refused service in a provincial office?
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  #2004  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 6:27 PM
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^ I admit I'm no constitutional scholar, but I don't think you can use a provincial government's "test" as a means of preventing people from attempting to invoke constitutionally-held rights.
"The constitutionally-held right to ignore any non-male police officer." Riiiiight.

Respectfully... I suspect you're starting to troll us.....
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  #2005  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 6:28 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
"The constitutionally-held right to be served by a male police officer." Riiiiight.

Respectfully... I suspect you're starting to troll us.....
If we get to that point in this country then sign me up for a PQ membership and book my room for the next party congress now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv0nWL0E0ho
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  #2006  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 6:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
As an aside, photo ID transit passes are just a terrible idea in general (and not for reasons of religious accommodation).
Oh, you're very probably correct on that. (I don't really have a strong opinion on this, but at first sight... biometrics / fingerprint pass / etc. is probably where we're headed, no?)

My position is the same as with helmet laws: I'm okay with everyone having the right to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, and I'm also okay with no one having the right to ride a motorcycle without a helmet.

The issue here isn't whether helmets or photo IDs are good or not, the issue is whether it's laws trump religious requirements, or religious requirements trump laws.

If we decide helmets are mandatory, then that's that. I'm not taking a position on helmets at all; the point here is that a modern secular society should always disallow playing the religion card to escape the laws of the land. If we want to accommodate the religious, fine, we can do that by changing the laws of the land so that whatever they can't do, isn't legally mandatory anymore.

"Partly due to the fact there are some Sikhs here and we have decided we want to be nice to them, Quebec has decided to follow New Hampshire's example, and has completely abolished its motorcycle helmet laws" would be fine, in my view.
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  #2007  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 6:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
I'm curious how Bill 21 works in real life. Will some public servant lose their job if they wear a head scarf to work? And who gets to define what head covering constitutes religious garb? Someone who just ties a bandana on their head and comes into work, could they get terminated for that or refused service in a provincial office?
It's probably not any harder to define than, say, prostitution. You can generally tell when you see it.

As you may know, anyone who was already wearing conspicuous religious symbols at work gets grandfathered in. (Allowing this was a questionable decision, but I can see pros and cons to it.)
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  #2008  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 7:13 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
It's probably not any harder to define than, say, prostitution. You can generally tell when you see it.

As you may know, anyone who was already wearing conspicuous religious symbols at work gets grandfathered in. (Allowing this was a questionable decision, but I can see pros and cons to it.)
Would a “flying spaghetti monster” design on a t-shirt qualify as a conspicuous religious symbol?
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  #2009  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 7:30 PM
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Seriously?!? You're much more of a Waffen-SS than I am then. I would let everyone pass (you can clearly see what they look like despite the cough mask) except the paper bag guy, who I'd ask just to remove that for a microsecond so I can briefly confirm that his face is a reasonable match for his access pass.

(And I'd feel like I'm doing my job well.)
I'd just install AI/iris/facial recognition tech on board all buses etc.
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  #2010  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 7:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
I'm curious how Bill 21 works in real life. Will some public servant lose their job if they wear a head scarf to work? And who gets to define what head covering constitutes religious garb? Someone who just ties a bandana on their head and comes into work, could they get terminated for that or refused service in a provincial office?
If this was Ontario, what would happen is each department/ministry/agency/etc. would issue its own specific workplace guidelines for the application of the law. People filing complaints about it would generate a case load for the province's tribunals who would issue rulings that over time would build up a base of precedents that would fine tune the parameters that these workplace guidelines follow.

However, that's Ontario, where we use common law. In Quebec, I dunno how it would all work.
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  #2011  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 7:38 PM
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The solution is obvious: replace all public place type of gov't interactions with AI/apps/etc. It's 2020 why can't I vote/get license/pay taxes/small claims court/pay traffic fines/etc from the comfort of my own home?
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  #2012  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by urbandreamer View Post
The solution is obvious: replace all public place type of gov't interactions with AI/apps/etc. It's 2020 why can't I vote/get license/pay taxes/small claims court/pay traffic fines/etc from the comfort of my own home?
In Ontario, except for voting and probably small claims court, you can do all of that on-line. Some municipalities actually have a goal of doing just what you propose: fully replacing any face-to-face service with apps.

Anyway, forcing someone who wants to move to Quebec to declare that they agree women are equal to men is racist against men. Jordan Peterson told me to believe this. Change my mind.
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  #2013  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2019, 11:59 AM
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Anyway, forcing someone who wants to move to Quebec to declare that they agree women are equal to men is racist against men. Jordan Peterson told me to believe this. Change my mind.
Just in case you may have been wondering:

Jordan Peterson is essentially a non-factor in Quebec.

I probably would not know about him if it wasn't for SSP.
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  #2014  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2019, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by urbandreamer View Post
The solution is obvious: replace all public place type of gov't interactions with AI/apps/etc. It's 2020 why can't I vote/get license/pay taxes/small claims court/pay traffic fines/etc from the comfort of my own home?
I can see this gaining steam if it's proven to be a more efficient way of delivering services.

If it's simply jumping through technological and logistical hoops for reasons of religious accommodation, I can't see much support for that - at least not in Quebec.
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  #2015  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2019, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Just in case you may have been wondering:

Jordan Peterson is essentially a non-factor in Quebec.

I probably would not know about him if it wasn't for SSP.
Yes, no one in Quebec has ever heard of him.

I'm way more connected to the Anglo world than most and never heard of him except on SSP. This forum is the only reason I have a vague idea of who that guy is.

(Just to confirm that he hasn't been an inspiration for anything we did, in case some wanted to think that.)
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  #2016  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2019, 1:00 PM
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Would a “flying spaghetti monster” design on a t-shirt qualify as a conspicuous religious symbol?
Almost certainly not, since the FSM by itself is in fact a symbol of atheism, not religion.

BTW, I would suppose that religiously-inspired Islamic designs on a t-shirt would be in the same boat. So that's fair. Consider:

The pasta strainer on the head, and it's equivalent, the veil - both disallowed at work.

T-shirts with designs on them - allowed.

So Pastafarianism and Islam are treated the same way. (Now if I somehow had a pass to be on duty representing the State with a pasta strainer on my head, now yes, that wouldn't be fair. But it's not the case at all.)
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  #2017  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2019, 1:03 PM
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Yes, no one in Quebec has ever heard of him.

I'm way more connected to the Anglo world than most and never heard of him except on SSP. This forum is the only reason I have a vague idea of who that guy is.

(Just to confirm that he hasn't been an inspiration for anything we did, in case some wanted to think that.)
Among the intellectual classes in Quebec, French dudes like Bernard Henri Lévy, Alain Finkielkraut, Pascal Bruckner and Michel Houellebecq have far more influence.
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  #2018  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2019, 1:11 PM
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Vid was 100% making a joke, but trust me, the intellectual classes here aren't really influenced by Peterson at all. They make fun of him and his recycled ideas more than anything.

Postmedia run outlets have tried to pump his stuff in the past, for obvious reasons. And no longer, for similarly obvious reasons (pill addiction / grifting). Also despite the fame he never really seemed to connect with the conservative political class here, and is probably much more popular in the US, if reddit is any kind of indication.
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  #2019  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2019, 1:16 PM
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Vid was 100% making a joke, but trust me, the intellectual classes here aren't really influenced by Peterson at all. They make fun of him and his recycled ideas more than anything.

Postmedia run outlets have tried to pump his stuff in the past, for obvious reasons. And no longer, for similarly obvious reasons (pill addiction / grifting). Also despite the fame he never really seemed to connect with the conservative political class here, and is probably much more popular in the US, if reddit is any kind of indication.
Yeah, I knew vid was being sarcastic.

Though I think Peterson has more influence than some people think he does.
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  #2020  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2019, 1:30 PM
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Originally Posted by niwell View Post
Vid was 100% making a joke, but trust me, the intellectual classes here aren't really influenced by Peterson at all. They make fun of him and his recycled ideas more than anything.

Postmedia run outlets have tried to pump his stuff in the past, for obvious reasons. And no longer, for similarly obvious reasons (pill addiction / grifting). Also despite the fame he never really seemed to connect with the conservative political class here, and is probably much more popular in the US, if reddit is any kind of indication.
Peterson had his little moment in the sun, then proceeded to go full kook.

Some of his earlier stuff had some merit and did have a certain truth to it, but he went off the complete deep end in the last few years. He does has slavish admirers on the internet who manage to completely miss his points though, especially re: masculinity.

Anyway, he's a spent force now such that he ever existed.
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