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  #2221  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2019, 1:28 PM
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Almost all of Doug Ford's policies have literally been this. Propose something outlandish, face backlash, apologize, then change course to something more moderate.

Well, he doesn't quite apologize. He comes out and says "I listened!!!!" and "I'm making it better!!"
As much as some would dearly love it to be true, there is no real parallel at all between Doug Ford's Tories and the CAQ.
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  #2222  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2019, 1:43 PM
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That's fascinating, my experience was markedly different (P-12 French Immersion, NS Public School). Non-immersion students had French as a mandatory class (once/week?) from grade ~3 to grade 6. It was an elective from grades 10-12, I think it was mandatory from 7-9 but I don't remember.

In terms of immersion though, from Primary (what everyone else calls "kindergarten") through to grade 6, every class was taught in French except for English, Music, Gym and Library (we had an actual class where we'd go and learn about the Dewey Decimal System and floppy disks and stuff, in English). From grades 7-10 about 60% of all class time was in French. So math, history, geography, science, and French class itself. I don't know if this was typical for Canada or even NS but we focused a lot on Quebec, the Acadians, and the Red River Metis in our social studies classes (as well as the Hurons and the Six Nations and the Thirteen Colonies and the American Civil War and Underground Railroad and Joseph Howe but barely anything about Canada west or north of Manitoba). Even in terms of more contemporary Canadian Studies stuff in high school, a lot of the focus was on Quebec (Expo 67, the October Crisis, Ecole Polytechnique shooting) and Francophone countries and I learned very little about Western Canada. I think the NEP was mentioned once as "a thing that Pierre Trudeau did that was unpopular in the West". But any of my grade 8 classmates could have rattled off random facts about Jean Talon or Samuel de Champlain or Port Royal or les seigneuries.

We learned math in French up until high school. Math is different in French! Everything is "virgule" (comma) instead of "point" and where there would be commas are just spaces and the way things are arranged when doing long division (if people still do that anymore) is different.

Science including high school biology was in French, but anything to do with computers was always in English.

And then there was actual "French Class". Constants that I remember are "dictée" (the teacher would read out a bunch of words that we'd have to spell) and "verbes". We learned so much about verbs. Multiple times per week all year most years. The teacher would present 6-10 verbs and we'd have 10 minutes or so to conjugate them all to je/tu/il/elle/on/nous/vous/ils/ells (interestingly, it was only "il" for the first few years, and then became il/elle/on as we became progressive, I guess. No one got upset) in imparfait, passé composé, passé simple, présent, futur simple, conditionnel, or whatever. A lot of my education felt like all verbs, all the time. There was an acronym, DRMRSVANDERTRAMP, which stood for the 16 most common (only?) verbs that used "être" for the past tense instead of "avoir". Je suis descendu. Nous sommes revenus. Il/elle/on est mort(e). There was never really any equivalent to this stuff in English.

We read a lot of books from Quebec authors but almost any film or music was from France. I remember hearing Serge Gainsbourg and watching Jean de Florette. But nothing prepared us for the Quebec accent(s)/vernacular - we never really heard that at all. There was this one kid in my class with family in Montreal who always pronounced the word "un" in this weird, grating way for reasons that I never understood. (Why do you keep saying "urrh"?)

We got "C"s for speaking French the way they do in Clare. We learned a lot about French-Canadian history and culture, and a lot about "Pure French" language, but it wasn't a very good primer for operating in any part of contemporary French Canada. We never really "heard" any type of Canadian French or learned anything about Franco-Canadian pop culture. One of my teachers was from Switzerland, and almost all of them spoke like him.

I always wondered what other kids were learning about while we were learning about DRMRSVANDERTRAMP
When I was in university in Ontario in the early 90s, I took a French course (easy As, what can I say) and a classmate of mine was a very beautiful girl from interior BC who had been in French immersion. Prior to coming to Ontario for university she had spent a year at a university in France.

She told me a story of how, shortly after arriving in France, when walking on campus some French friends of hers overheard some Québécois students walking by, and said "hey, some of your compatriots!"

My BC classmate had not recognized the accent, as (apparently) she had never heard a Québécois accent before. Hard to believe but that was her story.
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  #2223  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2019, 5:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
And then there was actual "French Class". Constants that I remember are "dictée" (the teacher would read out a bunch of words that we'd have to spell) and "verbes". We learned so much about verbs. Multiple times per week all year most years. The teacher would present 6-10 verbs and we'd have 10 minutes or so to conjugate them all to je/tu/il/elle/on/nous/vous/ils/ells (interestingly, it was only "il" for the first few years, and then became il/elle/on as we became progressive, I guess. No one got upset) in imparfait, passé composé, passé simple, présent, futur simple, conditionnel, or whatever.
I've always found the verb obsession odd and I think it much be some pedagogical cultural quirk that goes back many decades to a time in linguistics when there was a more dominant concept that you could learn "rules" that would then magically enable fluency in any language. Kind of like an idea that a novice can learn the perfect baseball swing only by looking at diagrams or something like that. That is not how human cognition works.

This pedagogical method may also date back to a time when written communication was most important and people didn't travel as much or consume audiovisual media.

In reality people learn by messing around and memorizing abstract post hoc linguistic rules and exceptions is not a very natural way to help somebody understand a language. I think this is a big problem with French language instruction in Canada that leads to poor progress relative to the amount of work.

I did some years of my schooling in French immersion in NS, but I have a semi-Francophone family, we spoke French at home at times, and I spoke French before I went to school. I never had to really learn verbs except for maybe practicing some spelling exceptions. The right conjugations "sound right" or look right after practice speaking and reading, just like how an English speaker knows to say "I went" and not "I goed" (and native English speakers drop or mess up the subjunctive form). I wonder if English learning has less focus on verb conjugation rules because it is less regular than French.

Most of my French teachers in NS were Acadian or from Quebec. Many of the Acadian ones studied in Quebec at some point. Just about all of them were Francophone, but we got some substitute teachers who were not.
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  #2224  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2019, 5:48 PM
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I've always found the verb obsession odd and I think it much be some pedagogical cultural quirk that goes back many decades to a time in linguistics when there was a more dominant concept that you could learn "rules" that would then magically enable fluency in any language. Kind of like an idea that a novice can learn the perfect baseball swing only by looking at diagrams or something like that. That is not how human cognition works.

This pedagogical method may also date back to a time when written communication was most important and people didn't travel as much or consume audiovisual media.

In reality people learn by messing around and memorizing abstract post hoc linguistic rules and exceptions is not a very natural way to help somebody understand a language. I think this is a big problem with French language instruction in Canada that leads to poor progress relative to the amount of work.

I did some years of my schooling in French immersion in NS, but I have a semi-Francophone family, we spoke French at home at times, and I spoke French before I went to school. I never had to really learn verbs except for maybe practicing some spelling exceptions. The right conjugations "sound right" or look right after practice speaking and reading, just like how an English speaker knows to say "I went" and not "I goed" (and native English speakers drop or mess up the subjunctive form). I wonder if English learning has less focus on verb conjugation rules because it is less regular than French.

Most of my French teachers in NS were Acadian or from Quebec. Many of the Acadian ones studied in Quebec at some point. Just about all of them were Francophone, but we got some substitute teachers who were not.
I was in French immersion for some of my years of schooling and owing to having gone to French first schools in a few years prior, and also that we spoke French at home, on occasion I was actually better at French than some of the immersion teachers I had.
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  #2225  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2019, 6:00 PM
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Ontario will gladly take those booted from Quebec. Immigration is one of our provinces strengths that helps the economy.
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  #2226  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2019, 6:13 PM
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Ontario will gladly take those booted from Quebec. Immigration is one of our provinces strengths that helps the economy.
And we'd attract and retain a higher percentage of immigrants who better fit our needs.

Win-win!
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  #2227  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2019, 1:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
That's fascinating, my experience was markedly different (P-12 French Immersion, NS Public School). Non-immersion students had French as a mandatory class (once/week?) from grade ~3 to grade 6. It was an elective from grades 10-12, I think it was mandatory from 7-9 but I don't remember.

In terms of immersion though, from Primary (what everyone else calls "kindergarten") through to grade 6, every class was taught in French except for English, Music, Gym and Library (we had an actual class where we'd go and learn about the Dewey Decimal System and floppy disks and stuff, in English). From grades 7-10 about 60% of all class time was in French. So math, history, geography, science, and French class itself. I don't know if this was typical for Canada or even NS but we focused a lot on Quebec, the Acadians, and the Red River Metis in our social studies classes (as well as the Hurons and the Six Nations and the Thirteen Colonies and the American Civil War and Underground Railroad and Joseph Howe but barely anything about Canada west or north of Manitoba). Even in terms of more contemporary Canadian Studies stuff in high school, a lot of the focus was on Quebec (Expo 67, the October Crisis, Ecole Polytechnique shooting) and Francophone countries and I learned very little about Western Canada. I think the NEP was mentioned once as "a thing that Pierre Trudeau did that was unpopular in the West". But any of my grade 8 classmates could have rattled off random facts about Jean Talon or Samuel de Champlain or Port Royal or les seigneuries.

We learned math in French up until high school. Math is different in French! Everything is "virgule" (comma) instead of "point" and where there would be commas are just spaces and the way things are arranged when doing long division (if people still do that anymore) is different.

Science including high school biology was in French, but anything to do with computers was always in English.

And then there was actual "French Class". Constants that I remember are "dictée" (the teacher would read out a bunch of words that we'd have to spell) and "verbes". We learned so much about verbs. Multiple times per week all year most years. The teacher would present 6-10 verbs and we'd have 10 minutes or so to conjugate them all to je/tu/il/elle/on/nous/vous/ils/ells (interestingly, it was only "il" for the first few years, and then became il/elle/on as we became progressive, I guess. No one got upset) in imparfait, passé composé, passé simple, présent, futur simple, conditionnel, or whatever. A lot of my education felt like all verbs, all the time. There was an acronym, DRMRSVANDERTRAMP, which stood for the 16 most common (only?) verbs that used "être" for the past tense instead of "avoir". Je suis descendu. Nous sommes revenus. Il/elle/on est mort(e). There was never really any equivalent to this stuff in English.

We read a lot of books from Quebec authors but almost any film or music was from France. I remember hearing Serge Gainsbourg and watching Jean de Florette. But nothing prepared us for the Quebec accent(s)/vernacular - we never really heard that at all. There was this one kid in my class with family in Montreal who always pronounced the word "un" in this weird, grating way for reasons that I never understood. (Why do you keep saying "urrh"?)

We got "C"s for speaking French the way they do in Clare. We learned a lot about French-Canadian history and culture, and a lot about "Pure French" language, but it wasn't a very good primer for operating in any part of contemporary French Canada. We never really "heard" any type of Canadian French or learned anything about Franco-Canadian pop culture. One of my teachers was from Switzerland, and almost all of them spoke like him.

I always wondered what other kids were learning about while we were learning about DRMRSVANDERTRAMP
We also had DRMRSVANDERTRAMP, dans la maison d'etre.

Every French exam included this thing, and you had to label it:



Sadly, I didn't learn the word "defenestration" until grade 10. Pretty sure Dr. Mrs. Vandertramp had a song too. There were actually quite a few of those "helpful" mnemonics but ironically, I've forgotten them! Another fun thing about French class was how literally everything (including le poingnee de porte) had a label of what it was in French.

All of my French teachers were educated in France or Switzerland, except one, who didn't actually speak French and did all of her teaching out of a book. I was usually the one who pronounced things correctly in that class. To this day, I still find French R sounds easier than the English ones, though since I learned how to make the American R about 10 years ago, I find that one does slip into the middle of French words sometimes even though it shouldn't be there.
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  #2228  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2019, 2:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
When I was in university in Ontario in the early 90s, I took a French course (easy As, what can I say) and a classmate of mine was a very beautiful girl from interior BC who had been in French immersion. Prior to coming to Ontario for university she had spent a year at a university in France.

She told me a story of how, shortly after arriving in France, when walking on campus some French friends of hers overheard some Québécois students walking by, and said "hey, some of your compatriots!"

My BC classmate had not recognized the accent, as (apparently) she had never heard a Québécois accent before. Hard to believe but that was her story.
Not abnormal at all, though.

Similarly, you could "inform" an unilingual Québécois on a beach in Bali that among all the typically Anglo-American tourists who are around, this particular one is in fact a fellow countryman and you happen to know that because you picked up on his "Ontario Hoser" (or whatever it is) accent. He would've had zero way to tell.
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  #2229  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2019, 3:16 AM
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Ontario will gladly take those booted from Quebec. Immigration is one of our provinces strengths that helps the economy.
In fact, in the company I'm working at right now, one coworker was a recent graduate from McGill. He moved to Ontario for a better chance at PR (permanent residency). He actually grew up with French being his second language (Arabic being first) too.
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  #2230  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 11:12 AM
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Great editorial about a future religious teacher to be :

Cachez ce diable que je ne saurais voir: https://lp.ca/2urIcu
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  #2231  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 5:48 PM
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In fact, in the company I'm working at right now, one coworker was a recent graduate from McGill. He moved to Ontario for a better chance at PR (permanent residency). He actually grew up with French being his second language (Arabic being first) too.
Why would any of this give him a better chance at PR? PR is handed out by the feds and rules are the same whether you settle in Ontario or Quebec, and whether you speak English, French or both.
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  #2232  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2019, 5:52 PM
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Great editorial about a future religious teacher to be :

Cachez ce diable que je ne saurais voir: https://lp.ca/2urIcu
I like how Patrick Lagacé acknowledged that this was a rare one-off, but also how he wondered if that wasn't a sign of things to come.
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  #2233  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 2:49 PM
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To provide some balance in the "CAQ are nasty to immigrants, as are all Québécois French Canadians wink wink" narrative, I would like to point out a story in today's news.

This is a story of a Colombian family who came to Canada four years ago. They are refugee claimants - and we all know how long this stuff takes to get sorted out. This is an area of federal jurisdiction.

So a lot can happen in the life of a family in four years. These people have put down roots in Sherbrooke. They have jobs, have gotten involved in volunteering in the community, have furthered their education and skills, and of course they apparently have learned to speak excellent French. They also have a young child who was born in Canada.

So the feds say they're ineligible and intend to deport the whole family, except for the Canadian-born kid who would be allowed to stay.

https://www.latribune.ca/actualites/...6cde6aa0bec0bd

I suppose you don't hear much about these cases in Calgary Midnapore or the Beaches, but stories like this about the "heartless feds being mean to good migrants who've worked hard to build a new life here" pop up regularly in the Quebec media.

When I looked up the story above there was another one that popped up on Google from last summer, also from the Sherbreooke area incidentally.

So when people go all apeshit about the CAQ being singularly "mean" to people who want to move to Quebec by tinkering (admittedly awkwardly in some cases) with the multiplicity of rules that govern this stuff, forgive us for not being particularly impressed or scandalized.
Latest news on this is that the feds have denied these people's claims, and the family is set to be split up due to deportations of some members within about a week or so.

There is also another story that has begun circulating, from the Lac-Mégantic area, about an African(?) guy who is in the same situation and who is well integrated and liked both at work and in the community, and who is also set to get kicked out by the feds.

Comments sections for articles on both the stories are totally apeshit with anger at the feds for kicking out people who (in the words of the commenters) *exactly the type of newcomers that Quebec needs* and rife with allusions to "low-lifes", "riff-raff" and "unintegratable" people that reject "our values" and "spit on our culture" that Ottawa welcomes with open arms and foists upon Quebec.

Thankfully () this is a mostly regional issue and on a Quebec-wide level is only a minor blip. AFAIK it has not been played up on RDI or TVA Nouvelles.
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  #2234  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 3:01 PM
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These stories always play out the same way, it seems, with the only variant being whether the people are actually deported or whether public outcry leads to the Minister giving them leave to stay in Canada. There's a case in K-W at the moment of a Guatemalan family that crossed into Canada in 2017 after many years in the USA. The father has already been returned to Guatemala. Three of the five kids have special medical needs. Yaddah, yaddah, yaddah.
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  #2235  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 3:30 PM
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On the "unlikely to arouse public sympathy" side of the ledger, it was reported yesterday that the Defence Minister of Iraq is currently receiving welfare from Sweden. He gets US$976/month.
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  #2236  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 3:34 PM
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On the "unlikely to arouse public sympathy" side of the ledger, it was reported yesterday that the Defence Minister of Iraq is currently receiving welfare from Sweden. He gets US$976/month.
Under investigation for welfare fraud, iinm.
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  #2237  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 3:35 PM
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Canada in 2017 after many years in the USA. The father has already been returned to Guatemala. Three of the five kids have special medical needs. Yaddah, yaddah, yaddah.
Did you just "yaddah, yaddah, yadda" sick children?! (Bad Seinfeld reference)
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  #2238  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 4:22 PM
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These stories always play out the same way, it seems, with the only variant being whether the people are actually deported or whether public outcry leads to the Minister giving them leave to stay in Canada. There's a case in K-W at the moment of a Guatemalan family that crossed into Canada in 2017 after many years in the USA. The father has already been returned to Guatemala. Three of the five kids have special medical needs. Yaddah, yaddah, yaddah.
It's exacerbated in Quebec due to the widespread perception that federal immigration policy and decisions generally go against Quebec's interests.

Historically, this is pretty darn close to being a truism, though in the contemporary era I'd argue the question is more debatable.

Still, the perceptions remain.
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  #2239  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 4:29 PM
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It's exacerbated in Quebec due to the widespread perception that federal immigration policy and decisions generally go against Quebec's interests.

Historically, this is pretty darn close to being a truism, though in the contemporary era I'd argue the question is more debatable.

Still, the perceptions remain.
Not sure how to reconcile such misperceptions with public support for the individuals being deported.
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  #2240  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 5:25 PM
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Not sure how to reconcile such misperceptions with public support for the individuals being deported.
Isn't it pretty obvious?

Big bad feds in Ottawa on one side vs. welcoming Québécois and their well integrated newcomer friends on the other.
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