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  #61  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 1:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Attitude towards anglophones and their language is far from the only "marker" for xenophobia.

Diversity =/= "the English language"

Similarly, you have Anglo-Canadians who are super open to turbans and niqabs and such, but who have lots of "issues" with French Canadians. Are they "xenophobic" because they are francophobic, or is their openness to conservative Sikhism and Islam sufficient to win them a "pass"?
Yup, the hypocrisy of Anglo-Canadians on this topic is astounding.
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  #62  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 1:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
On one hand you say I can't speak about Quebec unless I'm from there. On the other you deride "come from away" attitudes in Atlantic Canada. Do you not understand that your attitude is emblematic of exactly what you're criticizing?
He (and we) at least understands the language that deliberations and discussions take place in in most of Atlantic Canada. Which gives a lot of insight into subtleties which are essential to understanding what makes people tick.
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  #63  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 1:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post

(Also, there's no test we can run to determine exactly how xenophobic a society is, but I will say that the idea that Atlantic Canadians are mistrustful of outsiders is a vastly overblown stereotype.)
I'd agree, but the stereotype that Maritimers are super friendly and welcoming is also a bit overblown. I say that as a born and (partly) raised Maritimer who's lived in all three provinces and still has family and friends in all three.

People down east are quite friendly on a casual level, but it's not as easy to make friends as you might think as social networks tend to be well established due to a lot of families being there for a long time. As with any place it does not mean it's impossible but you usually need an "in" (ie someone) in order to make your place.

They're also in my experience more likely to make off-colour comments than people west of the Ottawa River (but perhaps not moreso than in Quebec), all of which is likely related to people having mostly lived for so long just "among their own kind", for lack of a better term.
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  #64  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 2:05 PM
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I would still stand by the truth of it (there is a problem with this in the province's culture) but it's also easy to get too inflammatory and overstate it.
Just like race in the U.S., the language issue in Quebec taints most everything.

As such, I don't believe (and actually have first-hand family experience for this) that a random Russian, Lebanese or Vietnamese person who moves to Quebec, learns French (or already knows it), integrates a francophone workplace, has kids who grow up in the community, adopts certain local cultural elements, etc. will have a different, less successful or less satisfying experience than a Finnish, Indian or Dutch person doing the same, but in English, in the ROC.

This was actually the case prior to the Quiet Revolution and Bill 101 BTW. It's just that very, very few immigrants actually went through with that.
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  #65  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 2:10 PM
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BTW, the media gave François Legault a hard time over the weekend by asking him questions about Canadian immigration and citizenship laws and regulations.

I believe for example he had no clue about how long it takes to become a Canadian citizen.

This has been the focus of all of the political panels in Quebec in the past few days.

OTOH, Doug Ford thought that as Ontario Premier he could make cuts to the CBC, and he still won! Not sure how much the public cares about these details.
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  #66  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 2:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Attitude towards anglophones and their language is far from the only "marker" for xenophobia.

Diversity =/= "the English language"

Similarly, you have Anglo-Canadians who are super open to turbans and niqabs and such, but who have lots of "issues" with French Canadians. Are they "xenophobic" because they are francophobic, or is their openness to conservative Sikhism and Islam sufficient to win them a "pass"?
I agree that linguistic intolerance is different than racial, religious or cultural xenophobia. Linguistic intolerance has much more to do with power, influence and political control.

As I've previously mentioned, My sister and brother-in-law have lived for decades in various locations in rural and exurban Quebec, typically in communities that originally were majority Anglophone, but are now taking their agonal breaths as English speaking communities. I find this sad, and I know that given my brother-in-law's status in the various Anglophone communities he's served, he finds it both sad and demoralizing. It feels to him like he's been presiding over a long term death vigil for the last 35 years.

How do you personally feel about the demise of traditionally Anglophone communities in rural Quebec????

Some of these communities, especially in the townships, were first settled by Anglophones.
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  #67  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 3:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
BTW, the media gave François Legault a hard time over the weekend by asking him questions about Canadian immigration and citizenship laws and regulations.

I believe for example he had no clue about how long it takes to become a Canadian citizen.

This has been the focus of all of the political panels in Quebec in the past few days.

OTOH, Doug Ford thought that as Ontario Premier he could make cuts to the CBC, and he still won! Not sure how much the public cares about these details.
The Gazette report had him admitting that he didn't actually know much about immigration (or Canadian citizenship). I would until now have given Legault credit for more smarts than Ford. I still think it's advantage Legault, but it says something that the comparison could be made.
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  #68  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 3:45 PM
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The Gazette report had him admitting that he didn't actually know much about immigration (or Canadian citizenship). I would until now have given Legault credit for more smarts than Ford. I still think it's advantage Legault, but it says something that the comparison could be made.
Legault does come across as less brash and aggressive than Ford.
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  #69  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 3:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
I agree that linguistic intolerance is different than racial, religious or cultural xenophobia. Linguistic intolerance has much more to do with power, influence and political control.

As I've previously mentioned, My sister and brother-in-law have lived for decades in various locations in rural and exurban Quebec, typically in communities that originally were majority Anglophone, but are now taking their agonal breaths as English speaking communities. I find this sad, and I know that given my brother-in-law's status in the various Anglophone communities he's served, he finds it both sad and demoralizing. It feels to him like he's been presiding over a long term death vigil for the last 35 years.

How do you personally feel about the demise of traditionally Anglophone communities in rural Quebec????

Some of these communities, especially in the townships, were first settled by Anglophones.
The exact same thing is happening in a lot of French speaking communities in Ontario, btw. 1overcosc & I grew up in one.
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  #70  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post

How do you personally feel about the demise of traditionally Anglophone communities in rural Quebec????

Some of these communities, especially in the townships, were first settled by Anglophones.
I feel about the same as the anglophone families who bought houses in "Saint Anslem's" this year without ever having any intention to learn a lick of French in order to live there. C'est la vie.

BTW, I lived in a couple of places outside Quebec in my youth which transitioned or are transitioning at the moment from being mainly francophone communities to wholly anglophone communities.

Ironically the immediate vicinity where I live right now was once an anglophone village called West Templeton 150 years ago or so. There are still a few remnants like cemeteries, an old town hall and churches here and there, but only a smattering of anglophone residents living on a few remaining farms.

http://geneofun.on.ca/cems/qc/QCGAT0294

The Outaouais (Ottawa Valley on the Quebec side) and not just the Pontiac was about 70% anglophone at the time of Confederation.
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  #71  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
How do you personally feel about the demise of traditionally Anglophone communities in rural Quebec????
Sad, but that kind of phenomenon is nothing new nor exclusive to us. Sometimes dominant human cultures overtake other cultures, and in some cases there's little we can do about it. BTW, it seems to me the exact same thing has been going on in Francophone communities outside Quebec...

For the record, I've done my share to fight this (by happenstance, I admit), my significant other happens to be Anglo and I'm bringing her to the Townships (home, for me) and so far, her also Anglo best friend and her bf followed (eventually her brother and her mom might follow suit, but in that case it would be robbing Peter to pay Paul.)
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  #72  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 4:20 PM
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I feel about the same as the anglophone families who bought houses in "Saint Anslem's" this year without ever having any intention to learn a lick of French in order to live there. C'est la vie.
I'm not sure I get the reference to Saint Anselm (there is a St. Anselm that's part of Dieppe here in SE New Brunswick - is this what you mean????)

In any event, what happened to the rural Anglophone communities in Quebec may have happened anyway, but it's not entirely "c'est la vie". The process has been promoted and accelerated by activist Quebec governments and legislation like Bill 101. Without government interference, the process would be a whole lot slower and less painful.

I appreciate that francophone communities in eastern and northern Ontario are also disappearing, but I get the impression that the provincial government in Ontario is a little more sympathetic to their plight than in Quebec.

Meanwhile here in NB, with official bilingualism (and almost official duality), it often seems like it is the tail wagging the dog in terms of which community has favoured nation status.......

Personally I would prefer a laissez faire "live and let live" type of libertarian approach to all this. The more governments meddle in the situation, the worse thing seem to get...........
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  #73  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 4:27 PM
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Personally I would prefer a laissez faire "live and let live" type of libertarian approach to all this. The more governments meddle in the situation, the worse thing seem to get...........
That's a very easy position to take when you're part of a globally dominant group.
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  #74  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 4:34 PM
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That's a very easy position to take when you're part of a globally dominant group.
I will be the first to admit that, but at least it is not intentionally cruel.
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  #75  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 4:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
I'm not sure I get the reference to Saint Anselm (there is a St. Anselm that's part of Dieppe here in SE New Brunswick - is this what you mean????)

In any event, what happened to the rural Anglophone communities in Quebec may have happened anyway, but it's not entirely "c'est la vie". The process has been promoted and accelerated by activist Quebec governments and legislation like Bill 101. Without government interference, the process would be a whole lot slower and less painful.

I appreciate that francophone communities in eastern and northern Ontario are also disappearing, but I get the impression that the provincial government in Ontario is a little more sympathetic to their plight than in Quebec.

Meanwhile here in NB, with official bilingualism (and almost official duality), it often seems like it is the tail wagging the dog in terms of which community has favoured nation status.......

Personally I would prefer a laissez faire "live and let live" type of libertarian approach to all this. The more governments meddle in the situation, the worse thing seem to get...........
It's a popular myth that the francophone decline outside Quebec was "natural" and that the anglophone decline in Quebec was due to government fiat, but that's not the reality at all.

In the case of the Townships the anglo population has been declining for over 100 years I am pretty sure. I believe that the entire region became very predominantly francophone many decades ago, long before Bill 101. I alluded to the Outaouais which was majority anglo in the 1860s but the anglo population began its outmigration not long after and the francophone population boomed at the same time and soon outnumbered the anglos by 10 to 1 margins or more in most places.

Even post-Bill 101, the Quebec government has maintained all the services it's always offered to the anglo community including of course its own schools, colleges and universities, and health and social services too in areas where the numbers are even remotely sufficient.

One thing the Quebec government has done though is prevented the anglo minority from compelling or forcing francophones to use English in certain circumstances such as the workplace. So if you owned a factory or a mill in a town where most everyone was francophone, you no longer could force everyone to speak English on the shop floor. Which was sometimes the case prior to the 1970s.

I also suppose that beginning in the 1970s, situations where a town hall meeting where everything took place in English just because there were one or two anglos in the room, became a thing of the past.

When some of the more bitter Quebec anglos talk about their rights being taken away, it's often stuff like the last two examples they're talking about.

Francophones outside Quebec by and large never had this type of privileged (sic) treatment to begin with. So they've been in construction and defensive mode since the 1960s, trying to stave off their collective extinction.
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  #76  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 4:37 PM
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.........
Yes I was referring metaphorically to the Saint-Anselme district of Dieppe.
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  #77  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 4:42 PM
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Personally I would prefer a laissez faire "live and let live" type of libertarian approach to all this. The more governments meddle in the situation, the worse thing seem to get...........
"Laissez faire" only works for us under a Quebec independence or some type of enhanced home rule or autonomy scenario.
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  #78  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 4:43 PM
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Yup, the hypocrisy of Anglo-Canadians on this topic is astounding.
Be careful not to paint a whole group of people with the same brush. I don't care one iota if Mandarin becomes the dominant language in Canada over time. If that's what people want that's what should happen.

Culture is always in a continuous state of flux, especially in a multi-cultural immigrant nation like Canada. Over the next 30-40 years if I have to start picking up a few Mandarin phrases, learn some new words, I'm totally fine with that.

If this were to happen it wouldn't happen over night. I'll be long gone by the time Mandarin would become necessary. Kids would have to be enrolled in Mandarin classes but they'd think nothing of it.
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  #79  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 4:44 PM
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Be careful not to paint a whole group of people with the same brush. I don't care one iota if Mandarin becomes the dominant language in Canada over time. If that's what people want that's what should happen.

Culture is always in a continuous state of flux, especially in multi-cultural immigrant nation like Canada. Over the next 30-40 years if I have to start picking up a few Mandarin phrases, learn some new words, I'm totally fine with that.
You. Would. Be. In. A. Very. Tiny. Minority.
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  #80  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2018, 4:58 PM
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You. Would. Be. In. A. Very. Tiny. Minority.
Something that is assumed to be constant that is suddenly up for debate is unnerving to most people. Given time to consider an issue I think more people would be open to it.

Language doesn't stay the same no matter what people think. It adapts, changes, gains popularity, loses popularity, or falls into disuse completely. I don't know why English would be any different.

I can barely understand Old English at all. The only reason English is still with us is that it adapted. French should do the same if it wants to survive and stay relevant. Adopt Arabic words, English words, Mandarin words, etc. Forcing only newcomers to adapt may sound appealing but will end up biting yourself in the ass.

I might add that I consider Quebecois French healthier than the kind spoken in France. It's been far more open to change. Quebec should embrace that rather than be scared of it.
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