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  #21  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2019, 1:59 PM
Nova08 Nova08 is online now
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Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
To the average person, placing a regional rail stop makes sense, but that would make it less of a regional rail line and more in line as a "subway" line, which I feel that corridor needs, from the Chestnut Hill stations through North Philadelphia, and underneath the 9th St viaduct into 30th St and University City.

Now that the city is growing, hopefully the city can enhance it's mass transit system and the regional rail system can follow suit with restored service to West Chester, Reading, Lancaster, Allentown, and Easton.
It's a balance. I agree on the merits of the stop for the CH line. But many of the other lines don't need yet another stop in North Philly. If Septa wants to get out to Allentown the train needs to be a fast alternative and a stop like this does not achieve that.
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  #22  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2019, 3:24 PM
Skintreesnail Skintreesnail is offline
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There used to be a Reading Railroad stop at Ninth and Girard way back when. Back in the day, there were a lot more stations within the city limits on what is now the regional rail. As far as resurrecting any Ninth and Girard is one of the prime candidates.
I think the building by the viaduct on Spring Garden was a station too. A stop at 9th and Girard makes sense if it doesn't cause a bottleneck with the other lines. I guess they could designate the two inside tracks as thru-service and the outside as local to lower the impact. Not sure if two tracks would be enough bandwidth for the other lines though. Maybe if they have the Chestnut Hill, Fox Chase and Warminster lines make the local stops.

Anyway, I like this project; it expands on the progress that Northern Liberties has made.
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  #23  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2019, 3:34 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
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Originally Posted by Skintreesnail View Post
I think the building by the viaduct on Spring Garden was a station too. A stop at 9th and Girard makes sense if it doesn't cause a bottleneck with the other lines. I guess they could designate the two inside tracks as thru-service and the outside as local to lower the impact. Not sure if two tracks would be enough bandwidth for the other lines though. Maybe if they have the Chestnut Hill, Fox Chase and Warminster lines make the local stops.

Anyway, I like this project; it expands on the progress that Northern Liberties has made.
agreed, also I agree not all trains have to make stops, with 3 or 4 making any stop there it would still achieve decent headways (maybe add the Norristown line with a stop; probably would lead to 10 minute headways on rush and no less than 15-20 off peak)

I also like the concept here, looks great


would love to see SG, Girard and also Washington all densify
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  #24  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2019, 4:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Nova08 View Post
It's a balance. I agree on the merits of the stop for the CH line. But many of the other lines don't need yet another stop in North Philly. If Septa wants to get out to Allentown the train needs to be a fast alternative and a stop like this does not achieve that.
For SEPTA to have fast service to the Leigh Valley (Bethlehem) its going to take a lot of changes and improvements to the line. I wish they'd start on those today, but no one should hold their breath.

This proposal feels like a real one, not just a bait and sell. I'm pleasantly amazed that developers think the area can support the number of new units these two projects would add. And the fact that they can get financing says a lot about the Philly market.
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  #25  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 2:51 AM
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Originally Posted by eixample View Post
There used to be a Reading Railroad stop at Ninth and Girard way back when. Back in the day, there were a lot more stations within the city limits on what is now the regional rail. As far as resurrecting any Ninth and Girard is one of the prime candidates.
Once again, I can understand that there used to be a stop on 9th and Girard, however, I would rather see SEPTA construct a subway line underneath the ROW than just placing another stop on the viaduct.

Don't get me wrong: placing a stop on 9th and Girard makes absolute sense, but that would make less sense to operate the regional rail system by adding another station when Temple University is about a half mile away from Girard Ave and having another station would affect the frequency of regional rail trains plus the added capacity when a heavy rail line nearby would provide much needed service for that area.
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  #26  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 2:58 AM
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Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
Once again, I can understand that there used to be a stop on 9th and Girard, however, I would rather see SEPTA construct a subway line underneath the ROW than just placing another stop on the viaduct.

Don't get me wrong: placing a stop on 9th and Girard makes absolute sense, but that would make less sense to operate the regional rail system by adding another station when Temple University is about a half mile away from Girard Ave and having another station would affect the frequency of regional rail trains plus the added capacity when a heavy rail line nearby would provide much needed service for that area.
I entirely agree. As much as I love the heritage trolleys, Girard ave would be better served by a subway.
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  #27  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 6:21 AM
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Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
I entirely agree. As much as I love the heritage trolleys, Girard ave would be better served by a subway.
As much as this is a pipe dream because of funding, I would love this. It would connect fishtown, northern liberties, fairmount, and brewerytown so well
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  #28  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 8:27 AM
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As much as this is a pipe dream because of funding, I would love this. It would connect fishtown, northern liberties, fairmount, and brewerytown so well
It seems like you're talking about an east-west subway. My plans would've been to create a subway from University City and 30th Street Station through JFK Blvd and north through 9th St and the Reading Railroad ROW to North Phila Station, where it will later deviate and follow the old Chestnut Hill Lines.

I'm still frustrated why SEPTA won't even expand either it's subway or commuter rail system when other cities such as Boston, NYC, Washington DC, and SF, and even smaller metros like Miami, Atlanta and St Louis are expanding or looking to expand and obtaining funding while Philadelphia and Pennsylvania is stagnant when it comes to mass transit.

It doesn't matter how much money a city has or generates, when you don't have a viable mass transit system like the former cities I mentioned, eventually, you'll have a very time growing, which is why San Antonio and Phoenix have recently surpassed us in population, because of their economies and their cheaper way of life in comparison to Philadelphia.
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  #29  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
Once again, I can understand that there used to be a stop on 9th and Girard, however, I would rather see SEPTA construct a subway line underneath the ROW than just placing another stop on the viaduct.

Don't get me wrong: placing a stop on 9th and Girard makes absolute sense, but that would make less sense to operate the regional rail system by adding another station when Temple University is about a half mile away from Girard Ave and having another station would affect the frequency of regional rail trains plus the added capacity when a heavy rail line nearby would provide much needed service for that area.
First, as others have mentioned, a 9th and Girard stop would not have to be used by every train passing by. So not every train would be slowed down.

More importantly, dwell time and overall travel time would be improved system-wide by all high level platforms, and all modern train sets with doors located at the center and ends of every car so people can exit and enter in seconds. We should follow the models of a modern Paris or German style regional rail system that provide vastly more frequent service since we already have the through-running tunnel in place. New (or resurrected) infill train stops in that case would make a ton of sense with vastly improved frequency. Your proposed subway line doesn't make any sense to me. With limited resources, why duplicate an already existing rail line with a subway. Just improve what you have (for far less money) and build a new subway on the Boulevard where it is much more needed.
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  #30  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 1:29 PM
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Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
It seems like you're talking about an east-west subway. My plans would've been to create a subway from University City and 30th Street Station through JFK Blvd and north through 9th St and the Reading Railroad ROW to North Phila Station, where it will later deviate and follow the old Chestnut Hill Lines.

I'm still frustrated why SEPTA won't even expand either it's subway or commuter rail system when other cities such as Boston, NYC, Washington DC, and SF, and even smaller metros like Miami, Atlanta and St Louis are expanding or looking to expand and obtaining funding while Philadelphia and Pennsylvania is stagnant when it comes to mass transit.

It doesn't matter how much money a city has or generates, when you don't have a viable mass transit system like the former cities I mentioned, eventually, you'll have a very time growing, which is why San Antonio and Phoenix have recently surpassed us in population, because of their economies and their cheaper way of life in comparison to Philadelphia.
SEPTA has very little control over capital funding. Expansion is a pipe dream with current funding realities.
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  #31  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 3:09 PM
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Just curious; is regional rail cheaper than HR/Subway to build? If so would it make sense to build a regional rail line up the BLVD. Potentially could link with an extended MFL (make it to the BLVD) and fern rock maybe (maybe a spur from the fox chase could hit the BLVD
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  #32  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 3:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Kidphilly View Post
Just curious; is regional rail cheaper than HR/Subway to build? If so would it make sense to build a regional rail line up the BLVD. Potentially could link with an extended MFL (make it to the BLVD) and fern rock maybe (maybe a spur from the fox chase could hit the BLVD
If your subway is truly a underground subway, then there's no question that it would be vastly more costly then regional rail. Girard Ave, because of its width and that so many intersections have traffic lights, would be a good candidate for turning that line into a 'modern' trolley line, where the ROW has some sense of limited access and the trolleys could be given traffic light controls. The section of the line between Broad St west to the river is tight, but much of the rest of the line runs on a fairly wide street. Unfortunately SEPTA for good or ill doesn't have very big dreams (if any!) and that might reflect accurately on the gov'ts they represent. I'm glad that they seemingly are serious about trying to preserve their existing service, but wish they and the powers that be would think bigger and have a sense of, a interest in new future possibilities.
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  #33  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 4:33 PM
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has there been any talk of potentially extending the viaduct park up this far?

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  #34  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 5:25 PM
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has there been any talk of potentially extending the viaduct park up this far?

I doubt it. You'd be reaaaaaaaally close to the ROW at that point. It'd be a safety nightmare.
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  #35  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 9:30 PM
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has there been any talk of potentially extending the viaduct park up this far?

That part you highlighted between brown and parish isn't elevated and the part above Fairmount below brown is connected by a tiny footbridge and not all that area is elevated either. It would be hard to really call any of this an "elevated viaduct. It's more like orphaned spaced from where the viaduct used to be.
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  #36  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 1:18 PM
cardeza cardeza is offline
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If your subway is truly a underground subway, then there's no question that it would be vastly more costly then regional rail. Girard Ave, because of its width and that so many intersections have traffic lights, would be a good candidate for turning that line into a 'modern' trolley line, where the ROW has some sense of limited access and the trolleys could be given traffic light controls. The section of the line between Broad St west to the river is tight, but much of the rest of the line runs on a fairly wide street. Unfortunately SEPTA for good or ill doesn't have very big dreams (if any!) and that might reflect accurately on the gov'ts they represent. I'm glad that they seemingly are serious about trying to preserve their existing service, but wish they and the powers that be would think bigger and have a sense of, a interest in new future possibilities.
It's not a priority nationally, so it's not one in this region. The feds have taken a step back in terms of funding major transit expansions. When the interstates were built the feds paid 80 or 90% of the cost. Now, to get a major transit expansion you have to go through a lengthy process to even apply for a federal grant- which will only cover 50% of the project cost IF YOU ARE AWARDED the grant. There is article today about Lower Merion confirming they will not chip in towards cost of K of P expansion. without a regional tax dedicated to transit you will never see ambitious expansion projects happening here.
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  #37  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 9:42 PM
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TBH I don't see why a subway along Girard would be necessary. The 15 is surprisingly underutilized as it is and the ROW is more than wide enough (east of Broad) for median light rail.

What I would like to see is a project (e.g. on Girard) demonstrating that full running-way separation is viable on those E-W crosstowns, which incidentally would make the 54, 56, and 60 (Lehigh, Erie, and Allegheny avenues respectively) de facto BRT.

But then we as a country are terrible at incremental improvements to service booming ridership.
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  #38  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 9:45 PM
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
TBH I don't see why a subway along Girard would be necessary. The 15 is surprisingly underutilized as it is and the ROW is more than wide enough (east of Broad) for median light rail.

What I would like to see is a project (e.g. on Girard) demonstrating that full running-way separation is viable on those E-W crosstowns, which incidentally would make the 54, 56, and 60 (Lehigh, Erie, and Allegheny avenues respectively) de facto BRT.

But then we as a country are terrible at incremental improvements to service booming ridership.
You have space west of Broad too, you'd just have to eliminate street parking on Girard
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  #39  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2019, 3:52 PM
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
TBH I don't see why a subway along Girard would be necessary. The 15 is surprisingly underutilized as it is and the ROW is more than wide enough (east of Broad) for median light rail.

What I would like to see is a project (e.g. on Girard) demonstrating that full running-way separation is viable on those E-W crosstowns, which incidentally would make the 54, 56, and 60 (Lehigh, Erie, and Allegheny avenues respectively) de facto BRT.

But then we as a country are terrible at incremental improvements to service booming ridership.
In general, the flow of traffic in this city could be much improved by synchronizing the lights. Ever see the traffic lights change in NYC? It's so effective and of course visually stunning seeing all the intersections in front of you turn green one right after the other - depending on traffic, you can easily drive 10 blocks before hitting the next red light. Here, it's a fucking mess. You could be stopped at an intersection and see the light at the next one is green and by the time it's your turn to go, the next intersection turns red. I don't think I've ever gone through more than 3 intersections at a time here in Philly. It's a problem that affects passenger vehicles, buses, and trolleys all the same.

Is synchronizing traffic lights such a big to do? I really don't know how complicated it is but it's just another one of those little things that sometimes make you wonder if the people running this city can do anything right.
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  #40  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2019, 4:07 PM
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In general, the flow of traffic in this city could be much improved by synchronizing the lights. Ever see the traffic lights change in NYC? It's so effective and of course visually stunning seeing all the intersections in front of you turn green one right after the other - depending on traffic, you can easily drive 10 blocks before hitting the next red light. Here, it's a fucking mess. You could be stopped at an intersection and see the light at the next one is green and by the time it's your turn to go, the next intersection turns red. I don't think I've ever gone through more than 3 intersections at a time here in Philly. It's a problem that affects passenger vehicles, buses, and trolleys all the same.

Is synchronizing traffic lights such a big to do? I really don't know how complicated it is but it's just another one of those little things that sometimes make you wonder if the people running this city can do anything right.
I'm not going to do a 1492 and defend the City, but on a two way street isn't organizing the lights impossible? One beef I have is in certainly places the lights are on a extremely long cycle, which might make sense during peak hours but at 10PM when you're just sitting there for 4 or 5 minutes, its a bother. But what really digs at me is when you call the City, via 311, its very apparent the City could care less. Its like they don't realize the City is suppose to be there to serve the citizens, not the other way around.
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