Sim-Southwest: Our Visionary Concepts Thread

[SunDevil]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

^I think a big advantage America has over other countries is we have more of a sports culture/mania than they do, so our cities are more likely to have uses for the venues after the games.

at least a more varied sports culture which allows greater adaptation for use.

[phxbyrd]

Most of the problems these poor result cities encounter have to do with no use or plans for their venues post-games. In Phoenix this wouldn't be a problem except for a temporary Olympic stadium that could be converted to a soccer stadium afterwards.

[HooverDam]

So on the Janes Walk Phoenix thing one of the warehouses we got to go inside had a cool old Motel sign that used to be on one of the many motor motels along Van Buren:


I've been thinking about all of those cool old neon signs along Van Buren/Apache/Main St/Apache Trail and whats going to happen to them over the next 20-30 years as LRT is extended down Apache/Main St and theoretically TOD replaces the auto oriented hotels. While I don't think the buildings for the most part are particularly worth saving I do like the signs a lot and hope they can be repurposed.

So I was trying to think what a good use for them would be and I thought a park (whether it be in Phx, Tempe or Mesa) that featured the signs as public art would be really cool. Id like to see the signs were rehabbed and re-illuminated and put in say Verde Park (since its along the same route where these signs were originally) where a lot of people would get to experience them.

[Leo the Dog]

That would be a cool idea. I really like those retro signs...too bad it would be nearly impossible for those types of signs today with all of the restrictive zoning laws cities implement now.

[combusean]

This abandoned traffic triangle is starting to bug me. Since there's no damn money to make some grand civic intersection, I will seriously pay the water bill myself to see a park and community garden there.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...01666&t=h&z=20

Question: would enough people here be interested in starting and sustaining a non profit organization to lease the 3 triangles from the city? might be worth a proposal.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by combusean

This abandoned traffic triangle is starting to bug me. Since there's no damn money to make some grand civic intersection, I will seriously pay the water bill myself to see a park and community garden there.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...01666&t=h&z=20

When I was at the 1st Street meeting a while back I asked one of the planners from the Streets department about that intersection and suggested the idea of a roundabout which she quickly shot down. Apparently there are plans to put Roosevelt on a 'road diet' and narrow it West of Central to 7th and thus a roundabout wouldn't work there. However she did say they're planning to fix that triangle slice up, though I highly doubt itll be anything grand or interesting.

Id love to see it become something like a sup'd up version of that new roundabout entry that the Desert Botanical Garden. Like I'm sure Ive said before, Id love to see Paul Coze's Phoenix bird statue, back on its pedestal, breathing fire again in that spot.

[Don B.]

Does anyone really know what happened to all of the stuff on Roosevelt Street? Why do we have so many flippin' vacant lots there? Was out for First Fridays with friends and the plethora of vacant lots just piss me off. Grrr....half the damn street is empty on one side or the other, and there's blocks of emptiness heading south and west towards downtown. WTF?

--don

[glynnjamin]

@Combusean
I've tried for two years to get the city let me use the lot on 3rd Ave & Fillmore ...first with Copper Pointe and then with the City of Phoenix. I never got anywhere. The parks department was worthless and the Mayor said shit like "Sounds good" and then I would never hear back from him or his people. I had a decent plan to use advertising signs that would cover the fencing around the lot and pay most of our yearly costs. I was even going to get some assistance from the Super Farm people with equipment and training. I'll be glad to join and help in any way. Hopefully you'll have better luck than me.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by Don B.

Does anyone really know what happened to all of the stuff on Roosevelt Street? Why do we have so many flippin' vacant lots there? Was out for First Fridays with friends and the plethora of vacant lots just piss me off. Grrr....half the damn street is empty on one side or the other, and there's blocks of emptiness heading south and west towards downtown. WTF?

--don

I dont have specifics for each block but I believe the general explanation is stuff was over zoned a long while back when Phoenix grew over 300% in a decade and planners/leaders thought Central Phoenix was apparently going to turn into Manhattan. Then later in the 60s-80s the nation wide plan of 'urban renewal' meant knocking over structures and replacing them, sadly a lot of times Phoenix wasn't well monied enough to muster replacements. Old buildings that had fallen apart were knocked over due to a tax system that rewards tear downs and makes it better for someone to own a land banked lot than a shity, dangerous structure that could maybe be rehabbed down the line. Add to all of that a transient populous who didn't have any strong historical connection to the Central City or desire to save things and we have what we have today.

It just seems like it was a perfect storm of shit really

[combusean]

All of the stuff on 3rd Ave and Fillmore is privately owned, so that's probably why nothing happened--they can't do anything without a lease from the lot owner and they all suck anyways.

The Roosevelt and 3rd St triangles are all public right-of-ways.

[glynnjamin]

Actually the city owned the lot for about a year during the Aloft fiasco.

[combusean]

Capitol Mall Improvement Block Plan:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ei=oY...24784&t=h&z=16

- Vastly renews Capitol Mall area with hundreds of acres of new and revitalized parkland and open space, ultimately stretching a mile across the site.
- Demolishes ugly buildings, rehabs period Modern structures.
- Fully connects to downtown with walkable path
- Several sites for office, residential, and hotel at various density
- Brand new shopping street along Adams
- Opportunity for new tallest building
- Consolidates and rehabilitates state government offices
- MLS Stadium Site
- New commuter rail station
- Mid to high-rise high-tech industrial/manufacturing testbed site.

Still cleaning it up but it's getting done.

[HooverDam]

^I like the thinking but what I hope happens is that eventually all the buildings (except the Carnegie Library) between the Capitol building and 7th Ave between Washington and Jefferson are demolished or moved. The warehouses on the Eastern edge of that stretch would hopefully be moved into the warehouse district South of Downtown to help fill it out. The other government buildings (Court of Appeals, AGs office) are heinous and anti pedestrian and likely will eventually need to be replaced and obviously theres numerous places they could go.

Id like something along the lines of this plan from the late 60s:


Now obviously the mall it shows there couldn't exist today because of the awful O'Connor court building and such, but Id like to see it happen from 7th Ave to the Capitol. On the block bounded by 7th, 8th, Washington & Jefferson Id like to see a 100 meter/yard copper clad obelisk commemorating Arizona's centennial.

8th and 9th Avenues (and possibly 10th as well) between Washington & Jefferson would be eliminated to allow for a contiguous park space. Bellow ground would be an expanded Capitol Museum with exhibits on the 5 C's and all the Arizona State symbols, including aquariums/enclosures for Apache Trout and Arizona Ridenose Rattlesnakes, ringtail cats, cactus wrens, Arizona tree frogs, etc. The Jefferson Westward Expansion memorial in St Louis is set up in a similar way, below ground, beneath the Arch and thats how you access the elevators to the top of the arch. The Copper Centennial Obelisk could have an elevator/stairs as well up to a viewing platform.

I'm also not sure zoning for a new tallest is appropriate or even desirable in the Capitol Mall area. Central Phoenix is already vastly over zoned for high rises, we can't fill our current high rise zoned lots, no need to create more. I'd hope the Capitol Mall could keep its current midrise profile, but with a lot more variety of midrises that include retail, non governmental office, and of course residential. I really like your idea for a neighborhood shopping street along Adams.

To make up for the huge lack of places to get food in the Capitol Mall area (all workers must either pack lunches or drive out of the area) Food Carts like are so prevalent in Portland should be encouraged. They could park along the expanded Capitol Mall park on Jefferson and Washington which would lead to an activated park where people would eat and it would serve area workers as well as tourists to the Centennial memorial.

Finally, if memory serves the idea for the placement of the new House and Senate buildings was to be the lot bounded by 19th, 18th, Washington and Jefferson. I believe they need quite a good deal of space for their expected future needs. And heck, while we're dreamin', lets knock that heinous Executive Tower down and incorporate its office needs into the new House & Senate buildings on the aforementioned lot.

[combusean]

You're probably right on the highrise district sprawl. But a renewed centennial plan that has matching funds on loan from the state at a better credit rating would probably get things built quicker. I think it's also a contextual thing. I made the buildings closer to the single family homes smaller. Everything should flow in theory and I think I'd be hard pressed to allow taller than 250'. The Revenue building is a good precedent for what that side of the neighborhood will begin to allow, and it needs to be blocked anyways because of its ugliness. The buildings closer to the western warehouse district should probably be zoned down a bit tho.

Light rail will also run right through this, so there's that.

I think it'd be foolish to demolish a good chunk of the structures there. They are good examples of the period and I took them all into consideration: the midrise sites on the Bolin Plaza block the views of the ugly buildings to the north.

They're not necessarily walkable in the sense of multistory ground floor retail, but they don't have to be. It's more important to focus flow where it is and replant the whole area to make the saved structures far more hospitable.

I'm kind of loathe to demolish a whole bunch of buildings between Washington and Jefferson. It's quite wasteful for what's been built there already, especially the small scale brick warehouse buildings from decades ago.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by combusean

I think it'd be foolish to demolish a good chunk of the structures there. They are good examples of the period and I took them all into consideration: the midrise sites on the Bolin Plaza block the views of the ugly buildings to the north.

What structures in the area Im describing are you thinking are worth standing? You REALLY want these buildings in your Capitol area representing your state?







Those buildings are embarrassingly awful. Sure there are a few bland or ugly buildings to the North of Washington, but some good ones too (Agriculture Bldg and the Mining Museum Bldg) and thats no reason to keep these other monstrosities. Really Im just talking about knocking out those 3 structures and replacing them on some of the surface lots that abound in the Mall Area. Initially these 3 buildings could stand with only the fence around the Library and the small warehouses needing to be removed. Then as these buildings are outgrown and money is available they could be knocked down and the Capitol Mall, an actual Capitol Mall, something we've never had but always dreamed of, could finally be realized.

And like I said, small warehouses like the Dunbar Spring building could be moved to the warehouse district which has already lost a ton of buildings and needs to be refilled in with buildings that fit its character. On the most recent Janes Walk we saw just how empty the warehouse 'district' actually is presently, and moving those warehouses on the Eastern edge of the Mall over there would help tremendously.

E: Im not sure exactly how tall the Executive tower is, its 9 floors, so Id imagine around 120-150 feet or so maybe...? If something like a Centennial memorial Obelisk was built at 100M, Id say nothing in the Capitol Mall should be taller than or even approaching it. It should stand out as prominent, so Id say cap everything at whatever the next tallest building after the Executive tower is to give proper prominence to the the Memorial.

[combusean]

The first one goes in a heartbeat and is replaced by a central mixed use complex. The second one would be hugely better by removing the parking and concrete. It's an appeals court: what do you expect. Government buildings are highly utilitarian and don't lend themselves to friendly ground floor uses.

It along with the third may come down in time but there's no reason to demolish them when they are serving their purpose quite well. It's wasteful and hampers the feasibility of any plan.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by combusean

The first one goes in a heartbeat and is replaced by a central mixed use complex. The second one would be hugely better by removing the parking and concrete. It's an appeals court: what do you expect. Government buildings are highly utilitarian and don't lend themselves to friendly ground floor uses.

It along with the third may come down in time but there's no reason to demolish them when they are serving their purpose quite well. It's wasteful and hampers the feasibility of any plan.

I don't think you're following me, just because government buildings don't lend themselves to ground floor uses doesn't mean they have to be oppressively ugly. Look at the Phoenix City Hall tower, its lovely. There are surely modern courts all over the country that are lovely.

I dont see how saying "Down the line, when they need replacing, these buildings will go and be replaced with open space" harms the feasibility of any plan. In fact it makes the plan more appealing, more visionary and thus more likely to be a catalyst for people to get behind it. They can stay for now, but when they need replacing, put them on one of the dozens of surface lots with a built in parking podium or underground parking.

Most major plans for the Capitol Mall over the years have called for just that, a Capitol Mall. A place for strolling, for gathering, for concerts, for protests, for election celebrations, etc. A mini version of the National Mall running through the district is exactly whats needed to create cohesiveness and a distinct look for the area in my estimation. Its not like turning that into a Mall means there won't be enough room for other things theres under used lots everywhere, the Mall would only be about 27 acres (minus whatever space the Library and Monument would take up) plus the 13 or so acres that is Wesley Boilin sans surface parking.

[combusean]

^ Well what about the other buildings on the mall site? There's one story brick buildings that weren't worth anything when they came up with the idea but now they're becoming worth saving by the simple fact that they're still there.

[combusean]

Hm. I took out that central complex, so at least it's connected with Carnegie Library Park at the east end of the green. I wouldn't support moving the buildings from 7th - 10th Ave in a visionary concept--their preservation should be first. There's a chance for that area to be more urban and integrated with the surviving structures.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by combusean

^ Well what about the other buildings on the mall site? There's one story brick buildings that weren't worth anything when they came up with the idea but now they're becoming worth saving by the simple fact that they're still there.

Like I said...

Originally Posted by HooverDam;

And like I said, small warehouses like the Dunbar Spring building could be moved to the warehouse district which has already lost a ton of buildings and needs to be refilled in with buildings that fit its character. On the most recent Janes Walk we saw just how empty the warehouse 'district' actually is presently, and moving those warehouses on the Eastern edge of the Mall over there would help tremendously.

Originally Posted by combusean

I wouldn't support moving the buildings from 7th - 10th Ave in a visionary concept--their preservation should be first. There's a chance for that area to be more urban and integrated with the surviving structures.

I'm not talking about losing them, I'm talking about moving them. Just like we did with the Rossen House, just like we did with the house now in Roosevelt that I can't think of the name of off hand.

If moved to the warehouse district we'd see a ton of benefits:
1. densification of the warehouse district and reduction of surface lots there.
2. New buildings in the warehouse district done in the same style, period, etc. that would not be able to be recreated today
3. The Mall would both visually and walkabley (pretend its a word) connect Downtown Phoenix to the Capitol.
4. The Mall would connect all the government buildings on both sides of Washington and Jefferson for pedestrians as well as visually
5. The Mall would become a premier gathering space for the Central city like I mentioned before for all sorts of rallies and celebrations. It would make the perfect gathering spot for whenever the Suns finally win it all.

I see it as a win-win X5, I don't see any reason those small warehouses have to stay where they are now if it gets in the way of a bigger and better idea. Furthermore, they don't fit the current and likely future character of the Capitol Mall however they'd be great in the warehouse district.

Go look at all the surface lots between Lincoln, Madison, 1st ave and 7th St and tell me that grouping of 6 or so warehouses over in the Mall area wouldn't make a hugely helpful dent in helping fill that area in.