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  #19401  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2019, 6:03 AM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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Originally Posted by Radio5 View Post
I have to say, I kind of agree. Perhaps not so much myth, it's of course the 2nd most expensive place to live in the US (after SF), but I was worried looking for an apartment in Brooklyn, and compared to LA at least, I found it wasn't too much of a difference in price. You definitely get more space in LA, but if you're single or a couple, price wise, you can get a decent place. Now compared to philly, yeah, it's a lot.
Is the housing crisis perhaps slightly exaggerated? Sure. Is the perception that you need to be a millionaire and spend a fortune to live in a nice place that is bigger than a closet well overblown? Sure. But, Urbanthusiat claimed there was "tons of cheap housing" for "poor people."

I mean that's obviously not true. The poverty line is like 12 grand a year. There is hardly any housing in NYC that is for the truly poor.
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  #19402  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2019, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
Define "cheap" and tons?

Brooklyn is the most expensive county in the country.
Where's the figure for that??? I was always under the assumption (not that I am trying to assume, but still) that New York County was probably the most expensive county when it comes to real estate prices.
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  #19403  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2019, 1:21 PM
Justin7 Justin7 is offline
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Originally Posted by skyscraper View Post
Well as I said, it's very revealing. It's like when you know someone cheats on their significant other, then you start dating them thinking "it'll be different when they're with *me*."
It is literally nothing like that.
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  #19404  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2019, 2:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Justin7 View Post
It is literally nothing like that.
literally?
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  #19405  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2019, 2:35 PM
Redddog Redddog is offline
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Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat View Post
This is a common myth. If NYC was completely unlivable due to COL then it wouldn't be the most populated city in the country and there wouldn't be any (for a lack of a better word) poor people to complain about Amazon moving there. There is tons of cheap housing in Brookyln, Queens, Bronx, Staten Island, and even parts of Manhattan. Housing is expensive in Midtown and along 5th avenue, sure, but why would we expect otherwise?
Not to pile on here, but have you ever lived in NYC?

It's insultingly expensive.
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  #19406  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2019, 3:49 PM
Londonee Londonee is offline
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Originally Posted by Radio5 View Post
I have to say, I kind of agree. Perhaps not so much myth, it's of course the 2nd most expensive place to live in the US (after SF), but I was worried looking for an apartment in Brooklyn, and compared to LA at least, I found it wasn't too much of a difference in price. You definitely get more space in LA, but if you're single or a couple, price wise, you can get a decent place. Now compared to philly, yeah, it's a lot.
One point. I'm in my mid-30s with a family and generally price "affordability" based on how much a house would cost for a family of three/four who needs ~ 3brs and 2bathrooms - in a minimum of ~1200sf of space. Ya know, like, for living life like real people. And how does that price point change from neighborhood to neighborhood.

No one is saying a 20 something can't shack up with 3 or 4 other people in a 5th floor walkup in Ft. Greene for a relatively affordable price.

The larger discussion about affordability - especially as it relates to Amazon and by extension Philly - is can people make careers in NYC, raise families, afford enough space to do so, have a decent QOL, etc. Affordability isn't just raw access to how many places you can get for $2k/month regardless of quality and condition.
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  #19407  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2019, 3:55 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Originally Posted by Radio5 View Post
I have to say, I kind of agree. Perhaps not so much myth, it's of course the 2nd most expensive place to live in the US (after SF), but I was worried looking for an apartment in Brooklyn, and compared to LA at least, I found it wasn't too much of a difference in price. You definitely get more space in LA, but if you're single or a couple, price wise, you can get a decent place. Now compared to philly, yeah, it's a lot.
Here the thing. In SF you get a proper apartment. In NYC, for the same price, you get a closet.

https://www.renthop.com/studies/nyc/...ay-median-rent

These are ONE BEDROOM rents at various subway stops in NYC.

Quote:
One Bedroom Rent Prices For Major NYC Subway Hubs
Union Square 14th St (4,5,6,L,N,Q,R,W Trains) – $5,265 (+9.1% YoY)
Times Square 42nd St (1,2,3,7,N,Q,R,S,W Trains) – $3,468 (-3.7% YoY)
West 4th St (A,B,C,D,E,F,M Trains) – $3,395 (-15.1% YoY)
Herald Square 34th St (B,D,F,M,N,Q,R,W Trains) – $3,350 (+3.1% YoY)
Fulton St (A,C,J,Z,2,3,4,5 Trains) – $3,346 (-0.2% YoY)
Atlantic Ave – Barclay’s Center (2,3,4,5,B,D,N,R,Q) – $3,040 (+13.4% YoY)
Broadway Junction (A,C,J,L,Z) – $2,035 (+16.3% YoY)
Broadway Junction is literally far east Brooklyn. Like Cyprus Hills/East New York. Takes an hour+ to get to Midtown during rush hour from Broadway Junction. You can get to Midtown as fast from 30th Street Station.
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  #19408  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2019, 3:58 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Originally Posted by Redddog View Post
Not to pile on here, but have you ever lived in NYC?

It's insultingly expensive.
Like a bar of Arm & Hammer deodorant is $7.99 at Duane Reade expensive.

He has literally no clue.

An uber ride that costs $12 in Philadelphia costs $25 in NYC.
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  #19409  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2019, 5:09 PM
City Wide City Wide is online now
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Originally Posted by eixample View Post
My rant didn't have much to do with the Dilworth House or the Dock Street proposal, but I strongly feel that we need more checks on neighborhood influence in planning, especially well heeled neighborhoods. They should have a right to make their voice heard, but not unilateral control over planning decisions, which is effectively what happens in Philadelphia with councilmanic prerogative. It's especially bad in Society Hill which is full of 2 story 50 year old historical houses with parking (which to me are not all that special anyway). This is also a neighborhood that just went through a recent downzoning or one that was at least proposed. Even if you disagree with my views on Society Hill though, the main problem with neighborhoods influencing development is that they all want to keep the neighborhood how it is today. We are not building enough units as it is so unless we pick up the pace we'll be guaranteeing an affordability crisis throughout large swaths of the city and region in the future.
How would dropping even 4 or 5 highrise apartment/condo towers into SH or any place in CC help affordability. I live in UC which is generally a expensive area in which to buy, but nearly everything (85%?) that has been built in the last 10 years is junk apartments marketed to the transient student population, and all this building has not lowered prices at all, although that is always one of the claims that is promised by those that want greater density. Most builders aren't stupid, they want to maximize returns by building as little quality as possible in ways that give them the largest return. Zoning doesn't effect that calculus. I live 1 block away from the largest plot of empty land in the area and something is going to be happening there soon (as the dog park just got kicked out after over 15 successful years) and I have absolutely zero confidence that something good will be proposed for that site, good meaning fitting in well with the neighborhood. To me the quality of the build is as important as what gets built, but quality is next to impossible to guarantee through the City's zoning or permit process. But in general owner occupied buildings that go for half a mil sound like a better bet then a 4 story 150 unit apartment block, even if a handful of 'affordable' units were thrown in.

Look at Northern Liberties and the surrounding where there were/are larger plots of empty land and what gets built is $400K+ townhouses or apartments where a small studio goes for $1250. Is that affordable in your context? If not, what could have made it different?

I agree that there is a pricing problem in housing in much of the city. But it also seems that the construction boom of the last 6 to 9 years has made the problem or certainly made it much worse. I don't think any on this forum would be for slowing construction as a way to slowing the increase costs for housing.

So, I guess what I'm saying is if more construction in a area doesn't help control housing cost increases, then why push SH residents to change? Who does that change help----I'd say the developers first and foremost and then down the list I guess one could say the City benefits from a increase tax base, but unfortunately in this City I think you'd be hard pressed to find a room full of people who think the City gov't does even just a 'ok' job with the funds that we the people turn over to them. The City seems to be very good at finding expensive ways of not doing very much (thank you J. Blackwell). I wish the answer was as simple as opening up zoning, but I don't think the evidence shows that at all.
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  #19410  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2019, 5:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
One point. I'm in my mid-30s with a family and generally price "affordability" based on how much a house would cost for a family of three/four who needs ~ 3brs and 2bathrooms - in a minimum of ~1200sf of space. Ya know, like, for living life like real people. And how does that price point change from neighborhood to neighborhood.

No one is saying a 20 something can't shack up with 3 or 4 other people in a 5th floor walkup in Ft. Greene for a relatively affordable price.

The larger discussion about affordability - especially as it relates to Amazon and by extension Philly - is can people make careers in NYC, raise families, afford enough space to do so, have a decent QOL, etc. Affordability isn't just raw access to how many places you can get for $2k/month regardless of quality and condition.
Yep to this 100x. NYC requires a reexamination of basically every other life choice if the first decision in the queue is “i want to live in NYC” since the implication of that decision is perhaps greater than choosing any other location in the country. while the following comparison was not part of the comment that originally started this whole conversation, the cost of living comfortably in NYC is drastically higher than the cost of living luxuriously in Philadelphia if we are looking at somewhat comparable neighborhoods (and i understand such a comparison can be a stretch). It’s even more the case when adding the non-housing needs of a family to the equation - childcare/transit/etc prices pose even more barriers for those looking to have a fam in NYC.
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  #19411  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2019, 4:01 AM
Radio5 Radio5 is offline
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
One point. I'm in my mid-30s with a family and generally price "affordability" based on how much a house would cost for a family of three/four who needs ~ 3brs and 2bathrooms - in a minimum of ~1200sf of space. Ya know, like, for living life like real people. And how does that price point change from neighborhood to neighborhood.

No one is saying a 20 something can't shack up with 3 or 4 other people in a 5th floor walkup in Ft. Greene for a relatively affordable price.

The larger discussion about affordability - especially as it relates to Amazon and by extension Philly - is can people make careers in NYC, raise families, afford enough space to do so, have a decent QOL, etc. Affordability isn't just raw access to how many places you can get for $2k/month regardless of quality and condition.

I agree, which is why I said if you're single or a couple. In your case, it's much harder to do. No disagreements there. Doesn't make sense to live there to raise a family unless you're making a shit ton.
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  #19412  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2019, 3:57 PM
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Originally Posted by allovertown View Post
25,000 jobs added spread across like 10 years. the few thousand they add every year would barely register as a blip on New York's radar. I don't think it is ridiculous to question giving so many tax breaks and allowances to the world's richest company, owned by the world's richest man, when you're a city that has no issue at all bringing in jobs.

Amazon looks clueless here. They had this big long contest waving their jobs in front of everyone's faces to get tax breaks, and then they settled in basically the one city in America where no one really gives a shit about adding jobs and is in fact in the midst of a housing crisis with overflowing public transit to the point where there is a significant contingent of people that are openly hostile to adding these tops of jobs in large numbers.

Them opening up a headquarters here, even if it was for less the 25,000 would make all the sense in the world. But then again, based on what they said they wanted, it made 10 times as much sense to come here instead of NYC in the first place, so I'm not optimistic.

Regardless I still think it is good news for Philadelphia. Setting aside whether or not people were smart to fight against Amazon coming to NYC, the very fact that they did and won really demonstrates that the New York is starting to turn a corner in terms of public sentiment. People are getting fed up with the never ending expansion and ever rising costs, clearly. There will still be tons of jobs heading to NYC, but if Amazon couldn't make a go of it, there will be others. If we can just peel off a small percentage of that run off we'll be in good shape.


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Originally Posted by skyscraper View Post
Well as I said, it's very revealing. It's like when you know someone cheats on their significant other, then you start dating them thinking "it'll be different when they're with *me*."
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Originally Posted by Boku View Post
They've changed this time! I just know it! Lol.
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  #19413  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2019, 6:40 PM
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There's a contingent of New Yorkers that already live in Philly for its lower cost of living but take a NYC salary and commute by train to NYC to work. If Amazon was smart, they would have an outpost here. It doesn't have to be the full 25k. It will give them the ability to get the tech folks from NYC to possible re-locate if such outpost exist. A few thousand tech jobs would be very good for the city with the Amazon nameplate attach to it. Then you could see Google follow suit. It's one of those things where we just need one recognizable tech name to attract more.
Amazon will never come here especially now after how stupid our city leadership has become.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amazon-...shless-stores/
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  #19414  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2019, 7:28 PM
jsbrook jsbrook is offline
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Originally Posted by Capsule F View Post
Amazon will never come here especially now after how stupid our city leadership has become.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amazon-...shless-stores/
Become? When was it not?
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  #19415  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2019, 8:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsule F View Post
Amazon will never come here especially now after how stupid our city leadership has become.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amazon-...shless-stores/
Yep, if Amazon is petty about this, then it's another childish reason for them to dismiss us in all aspects. But, why should we yield to them to dictate how retail should work. Cash or credit is what people have. Leave it up to them when they make the purchase. I think the city council is doing the right thing here. Some people better budget by taking out cash for the week and spending that in their wallet. It reminds them of what's left. Credits cards not so much when you only know or want to know at the end of the credit cycle. Other reasons is that not everyone has a checking account...hard to believe but that's just it.

Whether Philly gets a second look or not is kind of a different matter. If they want what SY or UCity Square has to offer then they will take a seriously second look regardless of the offense on the cashless store. They are after tax breaks and incentives and tech folks to further their domination. Opening cashless retail store isn't going to give them the kind of growth that is available from online sales. There are 500k different products online and the audience for that is non-comparable to anything except alilbaba in China. What are they going to carry in stores besides convenient things that we can't already get at WaWa, CVS, Walgreens, or the like. There are options in this regard and competition. Brick and mortar retail is not that easy to conquer either.

I'm not holding my breath that Amazon will want to come here in the first place and to scapegoat the reason is these cashless stores...I dunno.
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  #19416  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2019, 9:09 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
Yep, if Amazon is petty about this, then it's another childish reason for them to dismiss us in all aspects. But, why should we yield to them to dictate how retail should work. Cash or credit is what people have. Leave it up to them when they make the purchase. I think the city council is doing the right thing here. Some people better budget by taking out cash for the week and spending that in their wallet. It reminds them of what's left. Credits cards not so much when you only know or want to know at the end of the credit cycle. Other reasons is that not everyone has a checking account...hard to believe but that's just it.

Whether Philly gets a second look or not is kind of a different matter. If they want what SY or UCity Square has to offer then they will take a seriously second look regardless of the offense on the cashless store. They are after tax breaks and incentives and tech folks to further their domination. Opening cashless retail store isn't going to give them the kind of growth that is available from online sales. There are 500k different products online and the audience for that is non-comparable to anything except alilbaba in China. What are they going to carry in stores besides convenient things that we can't already get at WaWa, CVS, Walgreens, or the like. There are options in this regard and competition. Brick and mortar retail is not that easy to conquer either.

I'm not holding my breath that Amazon will want to come here in the first place and to scapegoat the reason is these cashless stores...I dunno.
What are you talking about? There is basically a zero percent chance that Amazon puts part of HQ2 in Philly. That's an entirely separate issue from whether Amazon puts some of its many (anticipated 3000) Amazon Go cashierless stores in Philly. I agree that the latter should not be the driving force of whether Kenney should sign this into law. It can be assessed independently. I think it's stupid and should not be passed.
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  #19417  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2019, 9:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jsbrook View Post
What are you talking about? There is basically a zero percent chance that Amazon puts part of HQ2 in Philly. That's an entirely separate issue from whether Amazon puts some of its many (anticipated 3000) Amazon Go cashierless stores in Philly. I agree that the latter should not be the driving force of whether Kenney should sign this into law. It can be assessed independently. I think it's stupid and should not be passed.
Yep, basically a zero chance. That's why I said I wasn't holding my breath that they would come.

And, was saying cashless/humanless stores should not be equated to their decision making process about alternate HQ2 location since NYC (Queens) was dropped. That's all.
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  #19418  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2019, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
Yep, basically a zero chance. That's why I said I wasn't holding my breath that they would come.

And, was saying cashless/humanless stores should not be equated to their decision making process about alternate HQ2 location since NYC (Queens) was dropped. That's all.
Gotcha.
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